20 min naps in the day

[torsmitch1981]

Any advise on how to get my baby to sleep longer than 20 mins a time in the day?
He's 4 months old and ends up so over tired but can't seem to sleep much longer than 20-40 mins at a time (and at night!)

[creations]

Hi there, welcome to BW forums

Could you give us some more information please?

- Have you read any of the BW books?  Do you understand the basic ethos of BW and have you started to use the EASY routine and teaching LO to self settle or not yet? (don't panic we can support you regardless of the answer, it's just really helpful to know)

- Could you describe briefly how you usually get LO to go to sleep eg, shush/pat, feeding to sleep, rocking in arms, in a sling etc.

- have you observed your LOs day and jotted down the times he eats, sleeps, wakes?
If no could you begin to record these so that we can have a look at what sort of routine he is getting now and see what a suitable starting point might be for him. Recording the EAS (eat activity sleep) times is helpful, see below for an example.

If you have done this already could you post a 'real day' (what actually happens, not what you hope will happen) like this:

WU 7.00 (morning wake up time)
E 7.00 (eat)
A 1hr 45 (length of time LO is awake including eating, nappy change, playing and wind down for sleep)
S 8.45 - 9.05 in cot, woke up crying, picked up fell asleep in sling 9.35 - 10.15 woke up happy
E 11
A
S
and so on until
BT 7.30pm (bed time)
DF (dream feed if you have one)
NF (night feeds what time)
NW (other waking at night which are not for feeds)
through to next morning

If you could add some little bits of information such as mood, what you did to try to get him back to sleep and such, this is helpful to us - I've given a little example above.

Sorry for so many questions when you first arrive - lets see what we can do to make life a bit easier for you hey?  Those multiple night wakings sound exhausting!

There's lots of support here so hang in there, you can get through this.

Oh, by the way I noticed you also have a NW thread. It's fine for you to just run all your info here on this thread as we can look at your entire routine day and night. This means you won't have to re-type out duplicate information and use up your valuable time (use that time to get a cuppa!!).  Anyone with tips for the NW will also be able to stop by here to support you.

[torsmitch1981]

hello!! Thank you for your reply!
Sorry my post was so short I was such a wreck yesterday migraine from hell and being sick all due to lack of sleep I just don't know what to do!
So I have read BW back to front and used the routine with my daughter a little earlier than I have started a routine with my son (bad mummy!)
I find it hard as breast feeding on demand and my son refuses a bottle whereas my daughter I pretty much combination fed.

So our day goes like this...

He was feeding 4 times a night until a few weeks ago which I stopped as realised it was actually comfort he was looking for not food! Silly me!

So now we aim for...

7am feed

9am sleep (today my miracle did 1.5 hours! Usually only 40 mins.

11am feed

Then sleep 1ish or so I'm hoping so as of today as I'm trying to be very strict with my routine now.
But he tends to have about 30-40 mins which then basically ruins the rest of the day!

Aiming for 3pm feed

If had full 2 hours at 1pm then no more nap, if small sleep at lunch then nap maybe 4.30...

Feed usually as 7 after a bath where he then falls asleep on me and then when I transfer he's asleep but then jolts awake 10 mins later.

So today we will try feed them bath? Then I'm putting him down awake not asleep from feeding.

Think my problem I've dug myself is he feeds on me and then I put him down asleep not drowsy/awake.
Some days he will go off himself, he did this morning. Other times he'll cry for ages and then I try and settle him

Is PUPD okay to do with his age? (4 months)

Thank you again any help would be greatly appreciated.

Nights are the worst as he just can't settle himself and silly us end up with him in our bed as were so tired

Xx

[torsmitch1981]

Sorry another thing I'm not sure he takes enough at feeds like 11am feed today he only fed for 10 mins but guessing he knows when he's had enough..
I am bad and tend to feed then put him down, day and night..
It's the self soothing I think is the issue... I've tried shh pat it worked for a bit and sometimes at night but he often just flips to his back and Wakes again, his startle reflex is crazy! We did swaddle but now he's trying to roll we have switched to a sleep bag,
Also I've never done the wind down thing in the day which I did do this morning, in sleep bag (usually I used a blanket in the day) then sat in the dark for 2 mins cuddling and music on so perhaps this encouraged his sleep this morning.. Who knows!

[torsmitch1981]

And now he's feeding again! He was getting cranky and went straight to the boob!!

[torsmitch1981]

He must know I'm talking about him he's now slept almost TWO hours!!!

[creations]

Hi again
Hey - I'm not sur[prised you are tired.
OK so it's great that you know the BW books and EASY method.  I don't have super long right now but wanted to come back with a couple of things for you:

7am feed

9am sleep (today my miracle did 1.5 hours! Usually only 40 mins.

Brilliant!! Whoop!!  but as it sounds like this is random, I really suggest you start writing down those times so we can look here and see if we can see a pattern for you.  Sometimes it just takes someone with a less sleep deprived head to have a look.  So If you can start tomorrow morning and write down beginning WU then EAS through day (or EASAES or whatever order it is).  doing a 1.5hr nap shows he *can* so lets see if we can tweak your times so that he *does* (or at least more often).

If had full 2 hours at 1pm then no more nap, if small sleep at lunch then nap maybe 4.30...

He a bit young for 2 naps you know. If it works then great but looks like it isn't if you are usually getting short naps. When I see your EASY it may help.

Think my problem I've dug myself is he feeds on me and then I put him down asleep not drowsy/awake.

For now I'd like you to start trying to put down awake, if he nods off on the boob rouse him a little and tell him you are putting him down.  He's a link which can help with GW of F2S (gradual weaning of feed to sleep prop) when you have time to check it out
Gentle Removal Plan
there are links within there but you might find reading through most/all of it gives you the general idea and the courage to make a start putting together you own steps or an adapted version of what's there.
And also if he sometimes goes off on his own then there is a chance that timing the routine out better will help get rid of this prop.

Is PUPD okay to do with his age? (4 months)

Tracy did use PUPD with 4 months in the book but we generally advise against it on the forums. PUPD is really a last resort method and really it also relies on LO being familiar with shush/pat so that once in the cot you can sooth in there rather than even more PUs.  PUPD also can go on for a loooong time and can involve a lot of crying and calorie burning, it's hard work on parents so if we can get to self soothing with it then really it's better all round.
If your LO is not keen on shush/pat you can adapt this, a firm hand, a rub, stroking head or back, white noise, key phrase, even (dare I say it) a little jiggling in the cot.  if yo know something which does sooth your LO other than feeding we can start there with ideas on how to use it to sooth but work towards independence.

Nights are the worst as he just can't settle himself and silly us end up with him in our bed as were so tired

Could be OT or could be he is used to co-sleeping.  if you feel you know let us know.  Chances are iwth improved day sleep you'll get some improved night sleep too.

Sorry another thing I'm not sure he takes enough at feeds like 11am feed today he only fed for 10 mins but guessing he knows when he's had enough..

I am not very up on BF (we do have a board if you need support or I can ask someone to stop by here) but I believe they do become very efficient eaters at this age so the minutes may reduce but it could still be a full feed.

Also I've never done the wind down thing in the day which I did do this morning, in sleep bag (usually I used a blanket in the day) then sat in the dark for 2 mins cuddling and music on so perhaps this encouraged his sleep this morning.

I would do a WD at every opportunity. it paves the way to sleep and tells LO what is going to happen.

I see you have a DD too. Obviously you dot' want to be chained to the cot and trapped in doors all day so we can try to work around that a little.  For now I'd recommend having a think about what times you really need to go out and see if there is a way you can make every day the same for your DS.  if some naps have to be in the stroller/car/sling it is better if these are the same naps each day rather than shifting from nap 1 to 3 then 2 every day.  Babies are habitual so it really help to always have the same nap in the cot and the same nap in the stroller.

OK. Lots for you to think about and read through there. Get writing down those times too

  you posted just as I was posting - a 2hr nap - my job is done

[torsmitch1981]

Thank you SO much for your detailed reply!

So today he did well apart from at the end...

7am feed and wake

9-10.30 sleep

11 feed

12.30 small feed

1-3pm sleep

3 feed

Getting hungry by 6pm so feed by 6.15
Then bath at around 6.40
Another feed at around 6.50
Put him down for 7 and he cried lots so I went up and fed again..
Now he's crying a lot so picked him up and feeding now but think this will be for him to just go to sleep I know it's wrong but he's really sobbing.. I'll try and put him down drowsy
I think bath then feed works better for us rather than feed then bath but is this really the wrong way round?
My daughter is 2 and we like to bath them together as she loves it as much as he does

And yep she's two so we tend to do morning activities so perhaps In his buggy or car seat for the morning nap? She has pre school twice a week too and drop off is at 9 so he could well nod off then and stay asleep in the buggy when I'm home? The other days maybe the car seat.. It's such a tricky one. Until today really I've tried a set schedule from another baby sleep method so he would sleep 9-9,45 in the morning then 12.30-2.30 in the afternoon but this didn't work as he never did the big pm nap and then was flagging badly by 6pm!

Hope this all makes sense!
I'll do another journal tomorrow and if I can remember times tonight's wakings too!

Thank you again hope I've answers everything but at least today I've realised with a little more structure he can go to sleep on his own and sleep for longer than 40 mins!!

[torsmitch1981]

Not a great night again
He was asleep by 7.45
DF 10.45pm
Back down from 11.10
Woke 1.30 (managed to settle him off with a little hand on his back)
Woke again 2.20 and had a feed
Back down 2.45
I went downstairs at this point as I hear everything so left hubby in charge!
Woke 5.45 my husband tried to settle but no luck and 6,15am he's guzzling his feed

I'll record our day today.... Tired mummy

[creations]

Well you day went really well didn't it

I'm just asking for some BF eyes to have a quick look at your night feeds.
Seems to me LO is only waking once other than to feed and that E is roughly every 3hrs (maybe the 5.45 was for E too as it had been 3hrs since).  But I was unable to BF which is why I've asked for someone who BF to stop by.

[*Ali*]

Those night feeds look pretty normal. He may do better if you can help him get used to falling asleep in the cot during the daytime rather than putting him down asleep every time. But he's only little so no rush.

[torsmitch1981]

Ah okay that's good to know! Thank you
My health visitor has said he shouldn't be feeding between 10pm-5am. She seems to think he smells me and just uses me for comfort to go back to sleep on. Also she says he is a big boy and has told me to start weaning now!

I think he is better being fed 3 hourly in the day but the 4 hour easy routine works for his naps better.
Is it okay to mix them up a bit?

Today went like this....

E 6.15
Sleep 6.30am - 7.15am
 
E 9am
S 9.20-10.50

E 12.15
S 1-2pm

E 3.15
S 4-4.40

E 6.45
S 7.30 pm

It's the getting him to go to sleep on his own I need to crack then hoping the night time wake ups he will learn to self sooth himself back off.
Tonight though I left his very dim night light on on his monitor as he loves to stare at this... And after crying, having a cuddle, I put this on and he chatted for 5 mins and then fell asleep!
Maybe he likes a little light.. Or maybe it was a one off 😂😂

Thank you both for your replies x

[creations]

Thanks for stopping by Ali x

Looks like you're doing great!  He's doing longer naps even if they are not yet all 1.5 -2hrs which is a great improvement.

The last A time before BT is pretty long there. Does he seem okay during that time?  Looks like he went off to sleep really well at BT without any huge OT melt downs which is good...if there were also no OT NWs in the first part of the night then perhaps he does just do well on a longer A to BT.

I think he is better being fed 3 hourly in the day but the 4 hour easy routine works for his naps better.
Is it okay to mix them up a bit?

It's fine.  You can do a mix of 3, 3.5 or 4hrly if they fit with naps, no problem.  Some LOs don't get to 4hrly E until closer to 6 months, if he feeds well at each E that's the important thing.
Some people do a top up feed at WU to start the 3/4hrly E going on the day routine when there has been a NF close to WU (so NF at 6 ish but then feed at WU too) but what you have done today is also fine - so long as it's working for you.

Also she says he is a big boy and has told me to start weaning now!

Personally I'd try to wait until he's closer to 6 months.  I'd wait to see if he is showing interest when others eat around him, sitting up well etc, the general signs of readiness to begin solids rather than looking at his size/weight.  He gets more calories and nutrients from you breast milk than he would get from any solids he eats now.

[torsmitch1981]

He seems okay.. I try and aim for 7pm bedtime when my DD goes to bed he just takes a little longer to settle.

Last night we had an okay night I fed at each wake up which was better  I think but should I now be avoiding night feeds?
He woke at
9.30pm
1am
4am
7.15am

All times had a feed them slept through each wake up which was amazing!

Today has gone like this so far

7.15 feed

9.20 feed

9.30-10.45 sleep

12.20 feed

12.30-2.05 sleep

3.05 feed (couldn't make to 3.20 for this one!)

[creations]

but should I now be avoiding night feeds?

No the night feeds are fine. I know there's a few there but Ali kindly stopped by to say they were normal so I wouldn't worry about it. I know it would be nice for you if there was a longer stretch between but the feeds are not less than 3hrs apart so I wouldn't say that it is prop/habit as your LO is getting through those sleep cycles between the NFs.  It may just take a bit more time to get a longer stretch of sleep.

Maybe just try to get a bit more A between the E and S in the day time so it's not quite so close.  Looks like the naps are really improving

[torsmitch1981]

Okay great thank you both of you!!
I feel we are really getting there and guess what.. He went to sleep by himself again this evening!
He was asleep by around 7.10! Had a little grizzle but not full on tears and within 5-10 mins he was sparko! Amazing breakthrough!!
I will try and get more A time as you say as he is still falling asleep on my after a feed In the day so I'll try and tackle that too!

Thank you for all your time and advice I really do appreciate it

Xx

[*Ali*]

Gosh! What is that HV on? Some LOs that age might sleep longer but most will be having regular feeds. The WHO recommend feeding as often as LO wants day and night btw. Breast milk is digested inside of 2hrs so it's common to need more frequent feeds for longer.

[torsmitch1981]

Haha I know I did think 10-5 was a long time for him to go! He's only 4 months!
We have tried a bottle to keep him a little topped up as this worked a treat with my daughter but this monkey loves the boobie milk too much so I'm sticking with it as love BF

Not a great night for us but hey ho!

9.30 feed
1am feed
3.30 woke
4am feed
5.30 woke
Big poops 6.15 (guessing he had tummy ache)

Feeding now (6.30am)

[creations]

How are things?  Still getting the longer naps and nights?  No more 20-40 min wake ups?

[torsmitch1981]

Hey sorry for the delay!

We're doing better thank you! He's managing some sleeps 1.5-2 hours in the day but some sleeps are on the shorter side of about 50 mins so better! Guessing he'll get there

Still not great at night... He does down great after his 2am ish feed but at the 4/5am feed he just won't settle which is the real killer as by then I'm so tired he gets quite trumpy so wondering if he has some trapped wind at that time of day.. Maybe digestion slows a bit then? Who knows 😂
It's hard as then he feeds on off all morning till we get up and I'm finding it hard to establish some sort of routine as cone 7-8am he's hardly hungry!
For example this morning he refused to feed from 5-45 till 10.15! If he did this at night I would be happy! It's just so hard to break this cycle... It's almost like he's a bit back to front with the feeds..

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!
Xx

[creations]

Hi
It sounds like there might be some snacking or feeding for comfort in the morning. Is that right?  If so I think the only way to really get back into a routine is to stop feeding at that time, so timing the feeds at least 3hrs apart and anything between use another soothing method to get him back to sleep.
What do you think?

[torsmitch1981]

Yes your right I think it's defiantly comfort!  And I do need to break this cycle to get anywhere so I'll try what you have suggested and feed every 3 hours... He's feeding bang on 2 hourly at night..
Last night
1am
3am
5am
7am

I'll try and do some shh pat when he disturbs at night and try 3 hourly between night feeds.. As he can do this in the day! I think I've become lazy at night I just feed as a quick 10 min feed and he's back to sleep.. Is there any other soothing method you can recommend?
I'm also very quick to just feed him the second he makes a noise, I'm always so tired its just the easy option but maybe he's just a noisy sleeper so I'll try and leave him x

[creations]

Sorry - I had forgotten about the 2 hrly feeds at night and was thinking about the 3-4hrly day feeds.
As Ali has already said that breast milk is digested in 2hrs I would continue with the 2hrly, but if there are feeds closer than this then take those as comfort rather than hunger.
Ali had suggested getting him put down to sleep in the day awake and that this could help with the nights lengthening between E.  Are you managing to put down awake in the day now?

If you feel you are jumping in too quickly at night then maybe he can really go 3 hrs or longer overnight, but if you shush/pat to try to settle and he keeps waking 5-10 mins later then I'd think hunger.  Sorry I'm not the best with night feeds or breast feeding, it isn't my experience area.

[torsmitch1981]

 It's okay any advice is great thank you!

Yes he's doing really well with going to sleep himself now which is a real break through! I put him down most nights just drowsy too and he goes off fine! He may stir or chat occasionally but more often than not he goes off on his own!

I'll try in the night not getting him straight up if he stirs.. I'll give him some time as maybe he's just a noisy sleeper! Doesn't bode well for when he has to go in his own room with his big sister! Luckily she sleeps through anything!

[*Ali*]

When you feed him at 4-5am are you feeding him and putting him back in his bed or keeping him in bed with you so he can feed on and off?

[torsmitch1981]

Stupidly I was keeping him in bed with me as by that point I'm so exhausted I found if easier to do this 😩 But the last few days I've been feeding and putting him back down which works better as hell then feed and normally go back to sleep for a bit but sometimes he will feed ad 4 ish back down at say 4.30 and wake again at 5.15 which kills me 😂

[creations]

Sounds like you've made great progress if he is self settling for his naps and at BT now
Great!
Try to hang on to the successes - I know you much be feeling really tired with the broken night sleep.

[torsmitch1981]

Yes he's doing really well!
Ive been quite lll with headaches dues to the exhaustion 😩
I have just done a dream feed 10-10.30pm and he's now feeding again 11.30pm
I am at my wits end I don't know what to do 😔
Also like today for example he went off to sleep all by himself at 1.30pm but then woke at 2.10 and didn't go back to sleep.,, what should I do in this sort of situation?

Thanks so much x

[torsmitch1981]

So last night wasn't great.. After feeding again at 11.30pm he then woke and fed again at 1am then woke again at 2.30! I went downstairs as I hate to admit it I was little stressed... My husband said he chatted for a bit and then went to sleep and slept through till 7.10am!! So he didn't feed from 1am until 7.15am! So he can do it!
Maybe he can smell me being next to him and jst thinks food! Or maybe I hear every squirm and feed for the sake of it resulting in him using me for comfort!
So now I know he can do longer at night I need to try and be strong!

[creations]

Also like today for example he went off to sleep all by himself at 1.30pm but then woke at 2.10 and didn't go back to sleep.

If he is regularly doing 40 min naps he may be a bit under tired for the nap. If you post a recent EAS times we can have a look.
It could be that if you get better sleeps at night then the day may also improve.

It's very interesting what you've discovered with the night sleep - is your DH able to step in and do some resettling for the times it seems it is not hunger?  Personally I wouldn't be feeding every 1.5hrs to me that is just too short between E times but I can see how it's ending up with him waking then and you not wanting to hush him back to sleep only to have him wake 30 min or so later for a 2hrly E.
Maybe you have been rushing in too soon. Tracy did say that it is normal for babies to wake for quite long periods over night and not need anything and can eventually go back to sleep. When we know about them we usually try to change the routine a bit but if you don't listen to every snuffle then you wouldn't know about them unless baby actually full on cried (in which case of course you'd go in).

Good luck, I hope you get some rest soon

[Gummi_bear63]

I just wanted to pop in and say it's worth leaving your LO for a bit to see if he settles. I was feeding my son constantly overnight as he was waking every 40 minutes and I often would feed him back to sleep out of desperation. I'm not sure if it's because I did a little sleep intervention or because I trusted that he might go back, but I've started to leave my son to fuss for a bit(he was full on awake, staring right at me through the video monitor it seemed) and he managed to put himself back to sleep several times. I almost went in a few times but knew he wasn't really upset and waited.  I never believed it was possible but it happened!  Worth a try!  Can't hurt anything. I don't feed my son at all last night!   

I was reading this because his naps are terrible and short too!  Hoping to fix those next.

[torsmitch1981]

Thank you! I'll write down our routine for tomorrow, today was a bit tricky as we had a long car journey but he fed well

7.10am
11am
1pm
4pm
6.30pm

My DH can help he's very good and tells me to go downstairs to sleep..
I may try again tonight.. Feed maybe no later than 2am ish and see if he goes till the morning again with me not in the room.

Thank you for your help!

[torsmitch1981]

Ah thank you for the advice! I'll try not to go to him the second he makes a noise! It's just hard as you say your so tired and desperate for sleep, feeding is a quick fix I guess 🙈
Hope you have lots more good nights!
Thanks again

[*Ali*]

I'd defo only go to him if he is crying an I need you cry. Fussing is fine to wait and see. Tracy advised this all the time.