7 months short pm nap

[Aimi]

I would love some help!

I got my now 7 month old daughter on easy when she was 4,5 months and Iīm still struggling. I have been trying to get her to nap properly for 3 months and I feel like I want to give up but thatīs not really an option..

itīs hard to post a routine since no day is the same but the goal is:

7 wake
10-11:30 sleep
14:30-16:00 sleep
7 or 7.30 bedtime

she usually naps well in the am with 1h 10min to 1h 30min and for a very brief period (a few weeks?) napped the same in the pm but then she started to wake upp early (around 6) and we put her to bed earlier (as advised here) and after a while she woke up at 7 but then she absolutely refused the pm nap and no matter how we moved the times of the am and pm nap nothing helped.

now weīve pushed bedtime back to 7 and she wakes up later but we canīt get the pm nap to more than 30 minutes. yesterday we pushed bedtime and she didnīt fall asleep until 7:30 but then she had a period of about 40 minutes or so at around 5-6 in the morning where she couldnīt go back to sleep and then the morning nap was only 40 minutes. I have read everuthing I can find here and feel like Iīve tried everything and nothing is working. I feel like a horrible mom who canīt figure out how  much sleep she needs and it feels like if I put her to bed 5 minutes wrong the whole day is ruined and what worked yesterday wonīt work today. 

Any thoughts??

Iīd like to give this a go before I sell her on Ebay...

[lolsyb1982]

Hi there and welcome!

That last sentence did make me laugh! I think we've all felt the same.

I know you say every day is different but if you could post her day yesterday for example with the time she woke, nap times etc I can get a better idea of what may be going wrong.

It sounds like she may need a bit more A time before that first nap to consistently get a 1.5hr nap. 1hr10 is often an UT nap.

I've also attached a link to show you the average A times up to 1year. They change so often it's hard to keep up so this is really handy to save to your phone Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[Aimi]

oh an answer! Iīm so happy!

ok yesterday as I remember:

7:00 wake up
10:10-11:20 sleep (5-10 minutes to settle no crying,woke up happy)
14:25 put her in cot
14:50-15:20 sleep (cried/fussed her self to sleep with me there, never left her to cio) woke up crying
19:15 put her in cot (before last night she always fell asleep at 7 but desperately trying everything...)
19:35 sleep (20 minutes to settle no crying)
22:00 dreamfeed
(awake for maybe around 40 minutes between 5:20-6:00)

today:
7:00 woke up
10-10:40 sleep (woke up crying)

Iīve tried increasing the a-time and decreasing it but I canīt seem to get it right and now I have no idea whatīs "normal" for her. it was 3 hours a few weeks ago..when she fell asleep at 7 and woke up at 6:20.  how long do I try with the same a-time before trying something else? should I keep at it for a while? but I feel like how long she slept in the night and the am nap varies and that it effects the a-time so Iīm always confused (except in the morning when I always think I finally got it figured out...

now that she only slept 40 minutes Iīve read Iīm supposed to put her to bed earlier but havenīt been able to get that right either  what would you suggest?

Iīm glad to hear others can relate to wanting to sell their baby cause I also feel guilty for my thoughts.. She can be a little monster when she doesnīt sleep properly and I feel like itīs my fault but at the same time I kind of feel like Iīm trying everything and why canīt you just sleep (curseword)  never lost it though thankfully! 

[lolsyb1982]

At this age our A times were increasing every week or two it seemed so if 3 hours was working a few weeks back and now the nap has shortened I would try 3hr 15 and hold it at that for a few days to see what happens. She could be low sleep needs which mean they need higher than average A times.

I see she's waking early as well around 5. Is that a new thing? That could also indicate the need for an A push before her first nap.

If you get a long first nap and then a shorter 2nd one I would do BT 3hrs after.

[Aimi]

Iīve been wondering if she needs less than average sleep, she nerver slept as much as "recommended" but then again we never seemed to get it right so I never knew what was what.. 

I usually hear her around 5ish but she always goes back to sleep quite quickly and this morning for some reason it took a while and she got upset, she got her self back to sleep though after Iīd been in to reassure her.

weīve actually been trying with 3:15 for the pm nap but then we got a couple of short am naps and so I tried to adjust the a-time to 3 hours so weīre never really consistent.. maybe I should just try 3,15 regardless o morgning wake up and lenght of am nap?

In the morning she seems so much more tired so we usually do just 3 hours there but maybe it should be the same. Iīm confused in regards to if the first a-time should be shorter as I interpreted it from TBWSAYP or if they all should be the same? seems like she can go longer at the last one before bed but unsure about the other two.

today after the morning nap (10:00-10:40) we got a pm nap 13:55-14:15 which to be honest seems like just luck...  we just canīt seem to geth both

I would like to put her to bed earlier but when we did that last it seemed like she used up all her sleep in the night and refused to sleep in the day, not sure if thatīs possible..  I donīt know how to break the bad cycle really. If she sleeps from 6pm to 7am she does an ok nap in the morning and refuses the next one 

Thank you so much for replying, Iīm not sure if what Iīm writing makes any sense or if Iīm explaining it in an understandable way, English is not my first language and also my head is just spinning with naptimes and bedtimes and a-times and Iīm so excited to get help!! 

[lolsyb1982]

I actually wouldn't have guessed English was not your first language so no need to worry there!

Some LO do have their first A as the shortest but both my girls have been the opposite and it's not unheard of here. Some also do the same A all day. It takes some trial and error to work out what your LO needs.
I would be consistent with 3.15 for the first A and stick with it for 3 days (we can reassess after) Quite often my dd2 can appear tired way before her nap is due. I know if I was to put her down though she wouldn't sleep for long enough so I ignore the tired cues and instead stick to A time (unless of course she was sick or had a really terrible night)

today after the morning nap (10:00-10:40) we got a pm nap 13:55-14:15 which to be honest seems like just luck...  we just canīt seem to geth both

This was us with dd2. Twice she did the textbook day of 2 X 1.5hr naps! Usually we could get a long first one and the 2nd was often only 45mins or 1hr. It's not long before their A times become long enough that you can no longer fit in 2 1.5hr naps so don't get too hung up on achieving that.

If you get a longer night than usual it may be that she can go a little longer before her nap. If she refuses the 2nd one after the usual time I would try again a little later and keep it shorter so you can stick to the same BT.

Come back if you want to chat through anything else or log a few days worth of sleep if you do try the longer A X

[Aimi]

Oh thank you! I SO needed some else to tell me what to try! I've been discussing what to do with my partner everyday after each nap (like ALL the time, poor guy... and he just says he doesn't know and to do what I think is best..

Now I have a plan! Yay! (I love plans, it's kind of the opposite of feeling lost.. ) I'll give it a go and log her days and see how it goes!

[Aimi]

Ok, so here is my log for the last few days following (hopefully!) the suggestions

25/9
19:25 S (15min to settle)
(04:20, 05:30, 06:35 Hear her but falls back asleep)

26/9
06:45 wake up, stay in cot
07:00 get up
09:55-10:40 S (a few minutes to settle woke up crying)
14:00-15:15 S (ten minutes to settle (14:30 wakes up and cries out a couple of times but goes back to sleep) 
19:00 in cot. Cries and tries to go to sleep but is finally patted to sleep (like shh pat but without the shh) at
19:35
(hear her a few times in the morning hours but falls asleep again)

27/9
07:00 wake up
10:15-10:55 S (settle in a few minutes)
14:10-14:45 S (settle in a few minutes)
18:00 in bed ot
18:15 S
3:00-4:20 awake crying on and off trying to go back to sleep
(hear her at 5, and 6:15 but falls asleep again)

28/7
7:00 wake up
10:15-11:25 S (settle in a few minutes)
14:40-15:10 S (settle in a few minutes)
18:10 S (10min to settle)


So what do you make of it??

Iīll add that I just a few days ago realised she is spirited/textbook when I took a test I found here on the forum, didnīt quite know what she was before cause I couldnīt place her in tracys descriptions but itīs becoming clearer now sheīs older. When I read some support threads about spirited children I recognised most of it and everything kind of fell in to place.. I donīt know if that makes any difference in the advice but thought Iīd throw it in the mix just in case

[lolsyb1982]

Hi!

Ok so by the last day that morning nap is starting to lengthen. Stick with 3hr15 for another couple of days to see if it lengthens any more.
It actually looks like she's OT by the afternoon nap and BT. Probably because the morning nap isn't long enough yet. Maybe scale them back to 3hrs until you're getting at least 1.5hr am nap.

It's so much trial and error and then just as you get it working they need A increases again!

[Aimi]

Ok, I'll try that for a few days and report back!  thank you so much!

[Aimi]

Me again!

I've been trying to get the "right" a times but she doesn't always fall asleep when expected 

Am I still aiming for 2x 1,5h naps at this age? How do I know when it's time to shorten (cap?) one instead of pushing bedtime? (if 2x1,5 ever were to happen.. )

If she wakes up but stay in her cot is that proper awake time? I don't know exactly what she's doing or how awake she is

so here a a few more days, should I just keep doing it like this or change anything??

29/9
6:40 wake up. stay in cot
7:00 get up
09:55-10:55 S
(13:50 in cot. Aiming for 3 hours a time. Babbling and kicking around)
14:05-14:35 S (wakes up, not crying as she usually does)
17:30 in bed, ed off that she can't fall asleep..
17:50 S
Night waking 20:50, 22:00, 02:40, 03:50,
05:00 can't go back to sleep for a long time and 06:00

07:00 wake up
10:10-11:30 almost falls asleep during wind-down so put her down and she sleeps straight away.
14:27 in cot babbling away. 14:50 Notices she is actually on her tummy playing.
14:55-15:22 S
18:10 S 5 minutes to settle
Night waking 21:05, 22:05

1/10
06:40 wake up stay in cot
07:00 get up
10:00-10:40 S (5-10min to settle)
13:35 in cot (decides this is a good time for a poo) quick wind-down again and back in cot 13:48
13:55- 14:40 S
17:45 S (10 minutes to settle)

[Scottishmummy]

I've been trying to get the "right" a times but she doesn't always fall asleep when expected  

Am I still aiming for 2x 1,5h naps at this age? How do I know when it's time to shorten (cap?) one instead of pushing bedtime? (if 2x1,5 ever were to happen.. )

If she wakes up but stay in her cot is that proper awake time? I don't know exactly what she's doing or how awake she is

Hi there!

Just popping in to offer another pair of eyes...

For A times, the often isn't a "right" time, just one that suits and it can vary through the day (some need shorter at start of day, some at the end) depending on what LO had been doing in the day, how the night and day before went. Just to keep us on our toes!!

I think she is a bit too young to start capping naps at this age..usually people don't until the 2-1 transition starts (around 9-12mo on average)

Time awake but in bed sometimes counts as half A time,,but some people start counting from wu or from out of cot...usually depends on baby!!

For your routine ....

Could she be going through a developmental leap? Learning new skills? That sometimes messes with naps and you get playing at nap time and NWs

I think your first nap looks pretty good..the 10am-ish start seems to suit her. It might be that she likes one long and one short nap & that's her natural pattern. My DS did this but his short nap was always the first, regardless of what I did with his A times.

Other option is to try a longer 2nd A. Have you tried pushing just the 2nd A time longer? Maybe to 3hr15 or even 3hr30? The 2nd nap looks to me like it might be UT & then 3-3.5hrs from waking to bed but if you get OT signs with that then it might be she only needs a short pm nap.

Good luck and let us know how you get on

Xxx

[Aimi]

Hi!

Any eyes but my own are always welcome! 

By "right a time" I was referring to the suggested ones I got here which were 3:15 and 3 if the am nap was shorter than 1,5h.

Ok, I have noticed that the time she stayes in her cot in the morning usually doesnīt ger her as tired as "normal" awake time so I guess Iīll have to figure out what to do with that

she has never napped well so I wouldnīt know if thereīs something developmental affecting them or not..

I have tried pushing the second a time longer and then got 30 minutes and she had a harder time getting to sleep, but that was when the am nap was short som if I get that sorted the plan was to extend the second a time.

I have another question. adding the log for today and the not so fun hour just recently!

5:50 wake up
6:30 get up (Dad gets her out of the cot but she would've stayed there til closer to 7 normally)
09:38-10:45 S (8 minutes to settle)
13:40-14:25 S
17:35 S
Night waking 20:50-21:55 really awake! Trying to get back to sleep. Crying nightmare! nothing works as she doesn't seem tired. Finally after a repeat wind-down she goes to sleep again.  Iīm wondering if the really early bedtime is whatīs causing her to wake up and not being able to goback to sleep, it has happend 2-3 times at various times after bedtime and always when weīve tried to do an earlier bedtime (which we only have for the last few weeks!) Iīm worried that thatīs whatīs causing it and Iīd much rather have a crancy baby during the evening than to ever go through this again! Does anyone know? what else could it be??

[Scottishmummy]

Long wide awake NWs for my DD either meant she was UT somewhere in her day, or did had something developmental going on.

So yes could be the EBT that's contributing...and that could be giving you the EW too...can she cope with pushing BT later?

[Aimi]

We've always kept her up until around 7 before no matter how much she slept during the day to try and get some consistency and she usually slept till 7. But around 6 months or so started to wake up earlier and when it didn't go away a few weeks later we started experimenting. Maybe it was the fact that we finally got her to sleep properly during the day and she didn't need as much sleep in the night but we tried earlier bedtime and never got back on track again  we put her to bed later yesterday and got 15min if crying but I 'd rather have it at bedtime than an hour later on. This is by far the most complicated problem I've ever tried to solve and I barely passed maths in school.. 

[Scottishmummy]

This is by far the most complicated problem I've ever tried to solve and I barely passed maths in school.. 

Ha ha, tell me about it! They change so much in the first year or 2, you just get something to work & it changes again... Feel free to keep chatting through and hopefully something will come together for her and you soon xxx

[Aimi]

I just wanted to say thank you both so much for taking the time to help me! Still up and down with the naps but definitely better than before and we'll keep trying to "crack the code" of the ultimate a time whilst trying to be more relaxed about it 

Thank you again!

[lolsyb1982]

Glad you're seeing an improvement 

[Aimi]

Just realised I have a question again 

These are what the last few days have looked like. does the 1,10h am nap still indicate UT and a push of the first A? and I
donīt know what to make of the pm nap, itīs sometimes longer than 30 which is great but if I try pushing the first A even more (which was my thought) what do I do with the second one? do I keep it at 3h or push it to 3,15? does it matter how much difference there is between the first and the second A? What would your next step be? (Oh and sheīll be 8 months in a week)

07:00 wake up
A 3,25
10:25-11:30 S 1,05h
A 3,05h
14:35-15:30 S 55min
18:45 S

07:30 wake up (awake 05:20-06:20)
A 3,05h
10:35-11:45 S 1,10h
A 3,05
14:50-15:50 S 1h
19:00 S

07:00 wake up
A 3,15h
10:15-11:45 S 1,30h had to be woken up!
A 3,15h
15:05:-15:35 30min
18:55 S

06:55 wake up
A 3,15
10:10-11:20 S 1,10h
A 3h
14:20-15:00 S 40min
18:10
awake a lot during the night

07:10 wake up
A 3,20
10:30-11:40 S 1,10h
A 3,10h
14:50-15:30 S 40min

[Scottishmummy]

Hi again!

Here's the link about average A times: Average A times- BOOKMARK ME! but as you see it is a bit vague for 8mo+

It looks like she is getting around 2hrs total day sleep across the 2 naps. What are her nights like? The 2 medium length naps could be OK for her if she's sleeping well at night and isn't showing signs of getting OT.

If you want to try for a longer first nap, you could try pushing the first A time only to see if you get a longer nap, keeping 2nd A time the same.. It gets a longer first nap then shorter second nap for some babies, but others start getting OT from the longer first A and short 2nd nap.

It really is trial and error but if your nights are ok and she's happy on her current A times/routine I'dbe tempted to stick with it.  If it ain't broke ...

[Aimi]

Ah... Never occurred to me that it might not be "broken" anymore  the nights have been ok but she usually wakes up a few times to cry out a couple of cries and then go back to sleep but has the occasional night were she's awake for a while and can't go back to sleep, maybe once a week or less. I don't know what that's about and if it's something to try and do something about or not.. It works for me but I just want to be sure I'm doing everything I can to get her to sleep well and right now I 'd say she's pretty content during the days. What do you think? Does it sound like ok nights? Have nothing to compare it to..

[ireneasheard]

6.5 month old here who does 1
5 hours in morning but consistently only naps in afternoon. Sleeps all night. We think he is pushing to drop that nap altogether as nap is now less than 30 minutes. Playing with A time. Atm between 3-4 hours.

[Scottishmummy]

Ah... Never occurred to me that it might not be "broken" anymore  the nights have been ok but she usually wakes up a few times to cry out a couple of cries and then go back to sleep but has the occasional night were she's awake for a while and can't go back to sleep, maybe once a week or less. I don't know what that's about and if it's something to try and do something about or not.. It works for me but I just want to be sure I'm doing everything I can to get her to sleep well and right now I 'd say she's pretty content during the days. What do you think? Does it sound like ok nights? Have nothing to compare it to..

It sounds like her routine is working for you & her and most nights are good.  My DD shouts in the night sometimes but then settles herself. I think it's just a noisy transition between sleep cycles.
Sometimes she does wake at night for longer.  It's usually a sign of something developmental for us. 
If she's content with her routine and you are, stick with it. As PP said, they're all different.

[Aimi]

Ok, then I'll stick to it! Thank you (both) so much you've been so helpful and it really has made a big difference for us and the whole family is so much happier!!