Almost 6mo - NW and/or EW help!

[channy13]

Hi! Hoping for some advice for DD2 who will be 6 months next week. I think she's going through a wonder week (mental leap 5) and also maybe starting to transition from 3 to 2 naps, so things have been tough for the last couple weeks.   

She was doing anywhere from 11-12 hours a night (8pm-7am), but in the last couple weeks, has woken crying at 5 or 6am. Sometimes DH or I can soothe back to sleep, but it's been tough because the day starts early and it's an OT cycle from the get-go. I put her down awake and she falls asleep on her own, but again, the last couple weeks have been a hit and miss. She's needed help with her 2nd nap a couple times, and today I had to hold her to get her to do the catnap. Gah, I thought we were past this!

Some questions:
1. DD2 has to come on the school run in the mornings and she'll sometimes fall asleep in the car on the way home for 5-15min. This is generally before the 2.5hr mark, so I usually wake her up when we get home and she gets her only solids meal of the day. How long do I wait before putting her down again? Tired signs are tricky at this age!
2. Because of the NW (sometimes 4-5am, or 5-5:30am) or the EW (6-6:30am...Ideally I'd like 7am to coincide with DD1), I'm so hesitant to push A times!
3. I tried extending the 2nd A time to 3 hrs a couple days ago after a glorious 2.5 hrs first nap, and it was a DISASTER. Had to rock her to sleep for 2nd nap, and then she only slept 40min! Catnap was a good 40min, but then bedtime was also a fight.

Our current schedule:
7am - E (bf)
9am - E (solids)
9:30am - S (this can last anywhere from 1hr 15min to 2hr 30 min!!)
11:30am - E (bf)
2:00pm - S (usually 1hr 15-30min)
3:30pm - E (bf)
6:00pm - S (catnap - I have been capping at 20min unless the other naps were horrible. She's needed help getting down for the 2nd nap or this nap this last week!)
6:20pm - A
7:30pm - E (bf)
8:00pm - S
11:00pm - E (df)

[lolsyb1982]

Hi I'm at work at the moment but will be back a little later to respond properly.

[channy13]

Thanks!

Quick update: woke up at 630am today (likely because DH starts getting ready for work) and was actually happy (not complaining, so I left her in her crib until 7)!

Thinking back, she actually used up sleep until 730-745 because I remember having to she wake her up to get to school on time! Am I expecting too much sleep of I'd like for her to go 8pm-730am? She's currently getting just under 14 hrs/day in total, but the Typical Daytime/Night Time guideline for her age suggests 15-18 hrs!

[lolsyb1982]

Hi there!

Ok so around this age LO tend to start transitioning from 3-2 naps. With this transition can often come EW which could explain what's happening.
Have you read up on this? I've attached the link which explains it All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

When LO are transitioning their night sleep does often reduce a bit so it's not uncommon for nights to drop to around 10.5hrs. I think an 11hr night is pretty good.

With regards to your questions

1 - what A time have you tried so far after a 15 min nap? As you are in the 3-2 im wondering if you could use that nap as your cn for the day and then aim for 2 long ones after that?

2 - I know pushing A times seems scary but you will need to do so to push to the 2 naps which will solve the NW/EW problems. Just do this slowly so 1 A at a time and by 15 mins.

3 - if she currently is on 2.5hrs I would try pushing her to 2.45 and hold for 3 days. That half hour drop was probably too much in one go.

Hope some of that's helpful and do come back to chat more if you have any other questions.

[channy13]

Thanks so much for your response!

Yep, I've read the 3-2 post, so I suspected this is what was happening. I don't remember what it was like with DD1...but I feel like there wasn't this much crying!

1 - If it's a 15 min car nap, I've tried extending A time by an additional 20-30 min. So let's say she was up at 7am, fell asleep in the car from 830-845, then I'll put her down between 945-10am instead. This nap will usually last 1hr 10min - 1hr 20min at the most. With no nap in the car, it'll be anywhere from 1hr 45-2hr 30! I guess this isn't really something I can control though (no amount of singing in the car will keep her up when she wants to drop off!) If I make this the cn (I can sit in the car when we get home to get closer to 30min), then how much A time do I do before nap #2? I've never done cn at the beginning of the day, so don't have any clue where to start!

Another question - with an EW at 6am - do I shift the whole day earlier to account for this? This would mean an earlier BT, but I'm worried that if there's another EW, it'll be 5am instead of 6 (since the whole schedule is shifted)...and so on and so on!

[lolsyb1982]

No the cn at the beginning of the day isn't the usual way but I just thought if she was falling asleep every morning in the car home then we might be able to work with it.

If it's only occasional then forget that option and instead start increasing that first A before her nap as I suggested earlier by 15mins.
With the EW people will do different things. Either accept there will be an earlier start until she fully drops the cn and her A times increase or you have to keep that first nap to as close to her usual time as you can. That will likely involve some overtiredness and you will likely have to resettle the nap or help fall asleep.

[channy13]

Argh, we've had a couple bad afternoons and nights here! There was one really successful day with 2x1hr45 min naps and 2x2hr45 min A times, no cn and early bt... But since then, it's gone downhill. The morning A and nap are fine (2hr45 min A and 1hr45 min nap), but the second nap was 35 min yesterday and 40 min today. This is after a 2hr45 min A time yesterday and 2hr35 min A today. Catnap has been a major fight because I think she's so OT, so I end up rocking to sleep and letting her sleep on me for 20-25 min. BT has also been tough, so more rocking and letting her fall asleep on my shoulder before transferring to crib. Last 2 nights, NW at 3am and it takes a good hour of rocking and bouncing to get her back to sleep!

More questions if you don't mind...
1 - is this "normal" during the transition? (In other words, an I doing something wrong??) How did we go from a good nap to OT naps in the afternoon with the same A time?!
2 - am I creating bad habits by rocking/bouncing to sleep for the cn, bt and during NW? She falls asleep independently for the first 2 naps... And sometimes BT if I can get the right window
3 - should I stick with pupd? I attempted it for 20 min at a NW, but with OT, it doesn't seem to be working!

[lolsyb1982]

Hi sorry to hear you've had a few bad days.

Its totally normal for there to be some OT when dropping a nap. Those 35/40 min naps, could they be UT rather than OT? Obviously you know her best but those length naps can often be UT.

I've often used a prop for a cn but I think if you're rocking for BT and NW for too long it will become habit. Like you say she can fall asleep independently it's just not having the right A time or naps etc is throwing it off.
It's entirely up to you whether to use PUPD or not. It can take a good few days to see any success.

[SarahE]

Oh Channy13 I read this post and it was like one I could have written for my Lo 1.5 months ago! We started transitioning to 3-2 naps just before 6 months...we would occasionally get a third cat nap in (usually on me as it was a fight to get her to sleep in her cot - all other sleeps were in cot and I knew this one was on its way out!).

We moved BT 30 mins earlier if she didn't have the third. During this period we also had ew....I pushed the first nap by 10 mins for a few days and re-evaluated, then pushed again by 10 mins. Just before 7 months she was going 2x2hrs (i was in heaven!!) and 11-12 overnight with 7pm bed time and a 6.30/7am wake up (we also had the clocks change during this period too so may not have been my work that sorted her ). So naps we 10am and 2pm.

Then two weeks ago...we started getting shorter naps 2x1.5hrs...still okay though...then just over a week ago we got one night waking - screaming, at random times. Then a random night where she would sleep through. Naps were then anything from 45-1.5 hrs or totally refused ESP the second so she ended up being up 6.5 hrs prior to BT 😫😳...which obv led to that dreaded wake up 45-1hr after BT.

Since this due to OT I pulled back on naps...only starting yesterday, but got a 1.5 and 2 hr nap and though it took 45 mins to settle her - no OT wake up (though we did get a high pitched scream at 3.30am!) today so far I've had a 2 hrs morning nap and we are just coming up to an hour arvo nap.  Whose knows what tonight will bring.

Not sure if our journey has helped...but in short I think it's all about tweaking an observing. It's such a tricky time ESP with leaps, teething,,learning new skills like sitting and crawling!

With that sleep in the car..soooo tricky. I tend to have the car a bit on the cooler side to try and keep my Lo awake...depending how long she has been asleep so if 5 mins, I tend to keep her up for an hour or until I see tiredness cues then pop her to bed. The routine for the day just goes out the window in terms of set nap times and I just go purely on wake times and tiredness cues.

[channy13]

Thanks for your posts! I keep telling myself that this is just a phase and we'll get through it, but man it's tough at 3am.

Still NW every night, but I haven't gone in and stayed with her the last two nights. Instead, I gave her a chance to figure it out, and she actually did...sort of. 5-10 of crying, then a few more minutes of playing with her blankie and then she'd fall asleep...only to wake up 5 min later crying again! This repeated for almost 90 min before I went in and laid my hand on her leg while she was crying. She stopped and I left the room, and she managed to fall asleep. ...Not really sure what's going on here? Is this just her trying to figure out how to get back to sleep? OT? Pain? Her brain firing on all cylinders so she can't sleep? I wish babies could talk!

I've stuck with 2hr45min A times for the last few days. Got an epic 2.5 hr first nap yesterday, followed by 1hr 15min in the afternoon...good enough to skip the cn! But same A times today, and morning nap was 1hr 45min (woke up at 40min, but resettled on her own in <5min), and afternoon nap was just under 40min, resettled by herself for another 6, then I went in and fed her and AP to sleep for another 40. Do I try to push the afternoon A, or hold for another couple days?

Another question - if the first nap is shorter than 1.5 hrs, do I shorten the following A time? Or still keep at my target 2hr 45min?

Thanks!!

[lolsyb1982]

I would hold for a couple more days to see if that 40min was a one off or if its a pattern.

I think it would depend how much shorter than 1.5hrs it was as to whether I shortened it and if so by how much. With my dd2 I've always tried to stick close to the A time as otherwise we just end up with short naps but she's pretty good at handling OT.

[channy13]

I was going to post yesterday that things seemed to be getting better after a weekend of 2 good naps per day, no NWs and no EWs! ...and then last night happened. I'm not sure if it was tummy pain (a bit gassy, but no issues during the daytime), or if she was UT/OT when she went down, but BT was a disaster (over 3 hrs of on/off crying, with rocking to sleep, transferring to crib and then waking up crying again 10 min later). She finally fell asleep for good during the "DF" (I use quotes because she wasn't actually sleeping when I started it). Another EW this morning at 630am, but I fed and managed to get another 40 min. Today's BT was similar - did BT routine, went down without a fuss, but started crying 10min after being in her crib. Finally settled with some PU/PD and then hand on back in the crib. So far so good, but it's only 9pm...

She currently gets 3hr A time in the morning and between naps. The only difference in the last 2 days versus the weekend is that she had a 2hr second nap on both days. First nap was 1hr 10min and 1hr 40min for yesterday and today respectively. I've been aiming for lights out about 2.5hr after the 2nd nap... do you think she's UT? Can that lead to fussiness at BT...which I think yesterday led to OT? Gah!

[lolsyb1982]

Yes sounds to me like she was UT. They then mess around and end up OT!

I would stick to 3hr to bed if she's had 2 good naps.

[channy13]

I've pushed out A time before bed to 3 hrs and she's able to fall asleep on her own... Yay! BUT... still getting EW at 630 with a BT of 830!! That's 10 hr of sleep which I don't think is enough! This has led to falling asleep in the car during the morning school run (5-15 min), which has led to a bad first nap! Gah, how do I get out of this cycle?  Naps during the day total 3-4 hrs... Am I expecting too much night sleep?

[lolsyb1982]

Can you post your routine as it is now. Have you dropped the 3rd nap? 14hr sleep over 24hrs is good and night sleep can drop that low right at the end of a transition.

[channy13]

Last 2 days:

6:30am - early wakeup, E (BF)
8:20-8:35 - S (fell asleep during school run)
9:00 - E (solids)
10:20 - 10:50 - S (put down at 10, but cried, so I held until very drowsy and put down. Woke up early! BF back to sleep)
11:00 - 12:30 - S
12:30 - E (BF other side)
3:00 - E (BF)
3:35 - 5:30 - S
5:45 - E (solids)
8:10 - E (BF)
8:40pm - S
11:15pm - E (DF)

6:30am - early wakeup, E (BF)
8:40-8:45 - S (fell asleep in car during school run)
9:15 - E (solids)
9:50 - 10:00 - S - woke up early again! PU/PD until 10:45, then BF because ~4 hrs after last BF
10:45 - E (BF one side, fell asleep)
10:50 - 12:05 - S
12:05 - E (BF other side...fell asleep after eating, not during)
12:15 - 1pm - S
3:50 - E (BF)
4:10 - 5:20 - S
5:45 - E (solids)
8:10 - E (BF)
8:30 - S
11:15 - E (DF)
up this morning at 6:20am

[channy13]

Ahhhhh, even worse tonight! Today's routine:

620 - EW, E (BF)
845 - E (solids)
925 - S (in crib by 915, asleep on her own)
1055 - E (BF)
Fell asleep while nursing from 11-1115
200 - E (BF)
220 - S (in crib at 215, asleep on her own)
255 - woke up early! Let her fuss for 10 min, but then nursed and held to sleep on chair
315 - 410 - S
430 - E (solids)
650 - E (BF)
725 - S (in bed by 710, asleep on her own)

Woke up at 910, 1030, 1110, 1150!! Put herself back to sleep in 5-15 min all of those times except 1030, since i was going to DF anyways. Also woke up at 4am, and just back to sleep now. I left her for about 30 min as she'd cry, stop to fuss with blankie or put finger in mouth, then cry again, etc... Finally got her down at 520 (pu/pd... Brought up to shoulder until calm, then back in crib and tried soothing with words and rubbing back)

[lolsyb1982]

I think like you say her day sleep is now robbing her night sleep. I think my dd2 would have had about 3hrs total during the day. This could be something you just have to grit your teeth with until she's not falling asleep in the car in the morning and you're on a solid 2 nap routine.

Yesterday morning was a great nap so that seems to be her ideal A time there. Hard to say whether she was slightly OT or UT for that 2nd nap. That last A was probably a little too long as all those early wakings are likely OT.
Again that's often inevitable when they drop a nap and will take a while to settle in.

I think you're heading in the right direction and it will fall in place soon x

[yaelihrpz]

Hi help needed with similar problem
My ds is six months next week
Until about four months he was sleeping fine with df at 11:00/11:30 and waking up around 7/8 am. Not many night waking just occasionally for dummy. Then just after four months we moved him to the cot bed and it all went down hill since then. NW every hour or two for dummy he's not really waking just asking for dummy in his sleep (cries or just calls for dummy with eyes totally shut). And since a few weeks ago wakes up at 5/6 am and it takes him anything between 30-60 minutes usually to go back to sleep. I didn't get the impression that he wakes up to start the day hence I make him go back to sleep plus it's too early and I worry it's not a proper good night sleep.
I don't remember much but don't think any of this happened with my dd who's five now. But I think perhaps I was a bit tougher maybe letting her cry more. In his case I think I might have created a dependency with jumping to his side with every sound.
I tried to wait a few minutes lately before I go in but it doesn't sound like he will settle and fall back to sleep on his own unless someone plugs the dummy in (so the days are spent trying to teach him to do it on his own... 😉). Also he's teething and has reflux which oddly isn't improving with age (I don't think anyway).
How do you all implement a routine? Because whenever we leave the house he can't seem to have a good two hour nap like he does at home. Also easy is even more not easy with siblings!
So how do we get him to sleep through the nights again please?

[channy13]

Another round of bad nights. 

She started to wake before the DF, so I think it's a habitual hunger waking. On one of those nights, she was up from 10pm-1245am! I've moved the DF 15 min earlier as I think it's time to drop out if she's waking up. Last night went well (DF-wise), but NW for an hour at 230am. Tonight she woke up when I put her down after the DF, and she just fell asleep after literally 1.5hrs of crying during pu/pd.

Should I be doing pu/pd for these NW? I can't think of anything else to get her back to sleep, and I definitely don't want to nurse her, though that would be the easier way out. I've read through the age adaptations for pu/pd and am unsure of the 6-8 month method. Do you pick up in cradle hold when the cry gets frantic? Do you just say your phrase and then put them back down immediately (even though still crying)? Or do you hold until crying stops, say your phrase, and then put down? I've been doing the 4-6 month adaptation because I'm not sure of the older method... It worked last night, but tonight... My goodness. The screams became worse and worse and worse.... I'm losing it here!!