Author Topic: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m  (Read 6498 times)

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Offline Crispysage

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Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« on: October 18, 2016, 21:50:21 pm »
LO is waking erratically at night.

Here is an average schedule. I know his morning nap is too early/soon... but he is always SO TIRED after NW. He sometimes does a CT in the morning and then two longer sleeps later. Once or twice he has been unable to sleep in the afternoon and then we have an awake time of 4 hours  :o I usually work on at least 2hr awake time, try to get 2.5 - working towards loosing the CT. Sometimes he get the dinner solids after the CT if it happens early.

7am BF
8 solids
9 - S
10:30 - A
11 BF
12 Soilds
12:30 - S
2:30 - A
3 - BF
4 -Soilds
4:30 - S
5:30 A
6 bath
6:30 BF
7 - S
10:30pm DF
3am BF

Lately he has been crying at 8:30/9pm, he will wake crying at 11:30 if I go to bed without DF. He often also wakes around 1:30-2:30am, and lately with some constipation issues he struggles to go back to sleep after 3am feed. (can be awake for an hour or more, then makes morning nap too long and too soon.)

I think he is ready to drop the 3am feed because I have noticed lately the 7am feed is short and lazy, where he drinks a lot at 3am... he also cries for the second breast then. ( I was hoping to wean by doing only one breast at 3am feed by this stage.)

My DH is away for 2 weeks and so my mum is helping out - I was hoping to have her help to wean night feeds. He eats (solids) very well and many kinds although I wouldn't say it's completely established (in terms of variety) yet. But proteins are well under way. He is a big strong chap - He hit 8kg's at 5 months already.

He is going through a leap so that might also explain the extra wakings. And there has also been some pain cries so there might also be teeth in the mix.

Regardless I want to work towards dropping the eating at night. Should I try to push the DF out first? I'd obviously rather drop the 3am first. I can add that he is able to fall asleep by himself well, though unfortunately I am still having to swaddle him. As soon as I try to wean it he sleeps TERRIBLY because he pulls out the paci. (many of the NW are as a result of getting out of the swaddle.) I have read that I should wean the paci in this case... but I really don't want to do that. However I get that it's not a great idea to still be swaddling him... He just flails around and scratches without it though.  :-\ I am going to have to wean it (swaddle) as well though...


 



Offline FPT23

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2016, 02:35:45 am »
Hi!

I'm sorry about your troubles! Hopefully you get some help you have been looking for here w us :)

Sooo first off, your LO is 6 mths... adjusted. According to your ticker... right? So I will go by that!

Now, many exciting (sometimes haha) stuff is happening at this age! So NWs tend to begin as well as some early wakes which is all developmental! I would like to mention that at least 1 BF is still very normally at this age- for you, it would be the DF instead of the others... when it comes to dropping NFs with a BF baby, you have to make sure he is getting enough BM during his day. Something I always advise since I too nurse my LO.

Ok, so getting back to the developmental phases..... so much goes on! LOs find new physical abilities such as sitting up unassisted and some begin to ATTEMPT crawling/rolling around. They get more mobile! Another awesome thing is teeth haha yay... many begin teething at this time! To add to the list, babies start solids which can also cause plenty of discomfort. With solids, I would avoid "dinner" for now or be very choosy of what you decide to offer if you do. I also would try to do solids quite a bit away from bedtime. Perhaps can help if that is an issue. Teething is mommys call but you can provide teething relief before BT as well, if you feel that is the culprit! ....and lastly and most importantly;

All about the 3-2 transition- 5/6 months

^^^^ I provided the link as it can be a very useful resource to keep on hand and revisit! :) ...going off of your EASY, i would suggests a slight increase in A times. However, do it gently and slowly so baby adjusts a bit easier and won't get excessively OT. Push ONE A time at a time, for 4 days. Once you feel baby as adjusted and continues to have good long naps, you can push the next A slightly for a few days, and so on and so forth. The key here is to be patient and push gently to allow LO to get used to the new A time. If you find he would be better w his morning A time, then start w that and continue

Hope this helps! Here is another link worth keeping under your belt too :)

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

Hugs xo :)
Fabi






Offline FPT23

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2016, 02:41:43 am »
I seem to have skipped the swaddling part!

My experience was the same but at 4mths! I ended up removing the paci first because it had become a prop and couldn't wean The swaddle without him pulling it out and such ::) it was quite difficult but it is a step you will need to take eventually ;) ...

I would say by now he is ready to wean and it shouldn't be too hard, hopefully :) .... for the swaddle. I believe it is "suggested" that it is best to wean the paci before LO hits 6mths and has an attachment? Don't quote me on that but if so, I'm sure now is better than later when they really would depend on it. Many moms just wait until baby is just able to remove and pop back in his mouth :) ! That works too but it just depends on you

Here's a link on how to wean the swaddle! Steps at a time :) and lots of patience

Weaning the swaddle - when, how, tips and tricks

You may find he sleeps better without it! ...with the paci- many like them and keep them! So do what you want when it comes to your baby :) ...I weaned it earlier because of that problem and instead, before a nap or BT, I swaddled and pd... making sure he was tired enough and I caressed his head instead or patted. That eventually took the place of the need for the paci. Yes he objected at first and I would have to pick up and hold instead but I would lay down drowsy and awake. Once he we got rid of the paci (my choice) we worked on swaddle :)

Hugs!!!
« Last Edit: October 19, 2016, 02:43:53 am by FPT23 »
Fabi






Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2016, 19:22:48 pm »
Thanks so much!

I am keen to keep the paci for those teething times, my LO's only have it when they sleep. unfortunately, combined with being swaddled this means baby has no idea how to put it in his mouth.

For day time naps he can easily go to sleep with neither paci or swaddle. But tonight I tried BT without either (I know it's a bit quick..) I eventually gave him the paci, but then had to go in and swaddle him an hour later as he was awake again and unable to calm (kicking and thrashing - like you say, increased mobility makes more interesting times.) I know one should wean the swaddle for safety too, and actually I had been working on it and had success a few weeks back, but then we went to the mountains and I swaddled him to keep him warm and then he got used to it again.  ::)

Thanks for the advice re the BF - I did a gradual decrease in feeding with first LO and managed to drop the 3am feed at around 8mo. I have  one breast that is apparently much less productive than the other  :-[ and I used that to slowly get LO1 to eat less. I was trying to only give him that one at 3am and he wasn't buying... I realized since your post that I need to only offer the good one for a while before only offering the poor one. So the last 2 nights I have done that. A good fist step I hope. It certainly has resulted in more enthusiastic morning feeding. (I usually offer the poor one first at BT and DF... got to keep production up somehow! Pretty hilarious what we talk about on here. .  .)



Offline FPT23

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 02:20:56 am »
Your very welcome :)

...and yes, the things we talk about ;) haha! Fun things... sometimes, huh ;D

So he naps without the paci and swaddle!? Well that will make things easier! (Somewhat) ....have you tried PD without the paci, just swaddled, and try soothing him in other ways? Or does he depend on his paci throughout the night? .....honestly, I understand you kind of just want to get it all over with at once but the process can be more difficult and also harder on your LO. The process would be faster though... probably after 3/4 days he may adjust. Rather than slowly removing the swaddle and then figure out the paci thing. If your ok keeping the paci, maybe once you wean the swaddle, just hold him until drowsy and allow him to drift on his own? The link on the swaddle I sent you (above post) is a good one! Look over it if you need more on the topic.

BFing is always challenging isn't it? But worth the effort :) ...I think the way you weaned your first at 8mths is perfect. Nice and gentle. At that age too it seems more realistic for a BF baby to stop that extra NW session. That would just be your call hun. I can't really say but just amp your supply when you can and make sure he's getting enough in his day if you remove a NF. Make sure your first morning feeding, your fully loaded too ;) haha

Xo hugs!
Fabi






Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 19:13:55 pm »
Thanks so much for the time you put in here. REALLY!

I had read the swaddle link previously, but I must go and read again, thanks! unfortunately,  LO #1 has gastro so I'm short on emotional time and space!  :'( In better news though, LO #2 only drank at DF last night!!! I fed at 10pm and then he woke at 2ish ... and I reswaddled and settled quickly. Apart from 1 or 2 paci pops my mum did and I didn't know about,  he only woke again at 5:30 with his brothers sick EW.

 ;D

After only 2 nights with one boob! Well I am not counting my chickens yet, but at least with all the boat load of poo I am (actually) dealing with, it was very nice to have some sleep!!!

Big BW hugs from Africa.




Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2016, 05:20:18 am »
So it's been three nights that he wakes around 2ish and my mom settles him. (unfortunately by rocking, but the other DS was almost hospitalized yesterday with the gastro, so we have our hands full...) and then he wakes (and I feed him) at 5:30. Then again at 7. (once he slept once not.)

So now I am worried about making a EW habit.

?



Offline FPT23

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2016, 20:20:29 pm »
Sorry I've been out a bit!

Sounded like all was well then it went back again? Sorry about that! At this point since he had been doing so well, it could be another cause maybe? Teeth? Tummy? The EW, could it be outside noise or light lately? ...EWs are also developmental at times. don't worry about it becoming a habit. Give it some time, it should fade again.

How old is your LO now? Be mindful of GS as well :)

I'm very sorry to hear about your DS :( ! How is he?

Many hugs from the states!!! TEXAS! :) we are so far away!
Fabi






Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2016, 20:55:55 pm »
Thanks, yes- things went well and then difficult again. Last night was DF 10. Then awake at 1,2,3 and fed him at 4. Then EW at 5:30 :( totally throws off the days Schedule. Which is frustrating because that's what I'm trying to work on! So that's a 6hr without milk but poor sleep for everyone. Those first wakes were easy with a dummy till 4 when he was sucking my chin so I fed him. Like you say it could be teeth or tummy. I gave him something at BT but obviously not strong enough. What is GS? His age is 7mo.

So today was
4am - E bf
5:40 -A
6:15 - E bf
7:20 -E
7:50 -S tired!
8:40 A
10:15 E bf
11:00 -S
11:20 paci
1:10 -A
1:30 - E
2:00 E bf
2:45 -S (car)
3:10 -A
4:20 -E
6:00 -E bf
6:15 -S
9:45 - paci
10:00 DF

SO waking for DF!? Day is all over the place with food too close together too short and too long a times - just a tricky transition time I guess. Hoping for a better night!

Advice about how to try keep the days on some semblance of order? A times difficult to stretch if his night was so bad.

DS still making 6/7 poo nappies, but eating well so on the mend. Shame -I did a lab sample of his poo, paed says just needs fluids and time.



Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2016, 04:05:29 am »
Reread and I didn't make it clear that I've weaned the swaddle and kept the paci.

After an awful night and even less sleep yesterday (45 mins am 45 mins pm and 1.5 just before BT) It's no wonder he was ready for cot party at 5am. We did however have a very good night. I decided to drop the DF. Every night I stay awake till 10 but I just couldn't last night. He needed at paci at 9:30. Then woke at 1:30 I fed then woke happy at 5. It's 6 now and I haven't yet fed him.

Thought I'd see if he'd make it to 7. Then probably he'll go to sleep then though /:

So advice for how handle day's schedule with ew?

Haven't forgotten the advice to start stretching the a times but maybe I'm stretching too much to be getting the 45 min naps. I'm usually doing 2,5hrs max so far.



Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2016, 13:35:14 pm »
3x 45 min naps today :-\



Offline FPT23

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2016, 02:33:29 am »
Sorry about the bad nights!!

Ok, could it be that the paci has become a prop?

Also, when he woke every hour that one night, I would usually suggest that to be discomfort. Gas? Teeth? Especially if that's his normal. As we had said, he was doing well then stopped... and now these hourly NWs- have you ate anything new or something that could cause discomfort? Or offered a new solid? Just a few suggestions...

At this age, with EWs I would try my best to continue to stick with a set nap as if he had never done an EW. That's what I do and did then. I just PD for an EBT.

45 mins generally mean under tired. Here's a link to AVERAGE A times. If your at 2.5 max, he's def ready for a push hun. I was at 3hrs by that time. By 6.5 or so because that is when he had more consistently switched to 2 naps a day....WHICH normally by your LOs age, he should be at. However, you won't get to only 2 naps a day if those naps aren't longer and A time reaches 3hrs. But, if he isn't sleeping independtly and relies on a paci, it could be that he's just waking at his first cycle and not able to transition on his own. Could the paci be the issue? .....if not, is there a chance you can resettle those short naps? How is he when he wakes at the 45 min mark? Moody or happy?

To help push A times gradually and gentle as to avoid OT melt downs, push by 15 min increments every 3-4 days and only ONE A TIME, at a time. For instance, if he's at 2.5 then for 3-4 solid days, have him asleep. Y 2.45. If you push just his morning A, don't push the others. Wait for him to adjust and then try maybe his afternoon A next. You need to get closer to 3 hrs at this age sweetie. Also, when he short naps, bring up the next A time by 5-10 mins. Can also help OT.

GS means growth spurt which occurs around the 6 mth mark

Xo
Fabi






Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2016, 18:21:34 pm »
I'm back for more!

Feeling quite despondent actually :(

I have been trying to stretch the second A time, but with my DH away, other LO illness, a 2 wk house guest, but most especially the EW, NW constipation and possible teething, things are ALL over the place.

LO is firmly 7m now (adjusted or not ;) but he just jawns and rubs he eyes at 2.5 hours (really struggling to push things slowly up to 3...) In the afternoon I am often struggling to get him down for CN which can mean he is A for 4/5 hrs even if I push BT to 5:30! My schedule is shot to $-*! I do put him in a carrier if I can't get it right for CN.

Note that he is good at independent sleep in general, but sometimes he's just NOT (is it too early for separation anxiety?) It feels like he has been "teething" for 3 or 4 weeks now! I don't mind medicating if I am sure it's pain, but it's very hard to tell as when he is OT he rubs his mouth too I think? Also, you asked about paci prop - I have been working on that (letting him use it during A times - and it's much better, i.e I can put the paci in his hand at night now.)

I'm really struggling to organize/normalize a routine that he can know what to expect. Also I run into the constant problem when he EW that he needs to bf right when he needs to sleep, which is turning us into bf to sleep, and makes it really hard to push A times! In the same vein, I often end up giving him solids RIGHT before a nap (not right before BT though) Apart from this being a possible bad idea in terms of physically lying down after eating, it's a bad idea because he eats tired - rubbing food in in eyes.  ::) But I need to space out the bf and solids and I don't want to feed him after CT too close to BT?

I do think that his chronic constipation is playing a role in his NW. I am doing my best to manage that with osmotic laxatives which I trust as I used them to great success with LO#1 But it is a constant job keeping the levels right!

Here is a current EAS example. 

5:15 A  -bf
6:30 E - breakfast
7:00 E - bf
7:45 S
8:30 A  :o
10:00 - snack
11:00  - bf
11:15 - sleep
12:45 - A
1:30 - Lunch
3:00 -bf
3:15 - sleep
4:00 - A
4:15 - dinner
6:30 - BT
11:40 wake and bf
1am wake
2:30 wake
4am bf
6am wake (then I would only bf at 7)

in this example the obvious problem is the 45 minute nap in the morning. But honestly every day is different so I just made this up to ask that question. I should post an alternate. Gosh I am tired, I hope this all makes sense, thanks so much for any feedback!



Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2016, 18:56:51 pm »
Sorry I realized I have not answered some of your questions! Plus you have already said that your advice is to get to 3 hours. so you are going to say the same thing... no chance that he's not ready for being pushed...? Plus I am trying to push, it's just difficult when he is so tired from not sleeping nights. Rotten chicken egg situation.

At this age, with EWs I would try my best to continue to stick with a set nap as if he had never done an EW. That's what I do and did then. I just PD for an EBT.

I guess maybe part of my problem is that I just add in more CT so match other LO BT for 6:30. Too much going on to have 2 BT.... But I can get DH help and maybe work on this.

.....if not, is there a chance you can resettle those short naps? How is he when he wakes at the 45 min mark? Moody or happy?

 Also, when he short naps, bring up the next A time by 5-10 mins. Can also help OT.

I can usually tell if I am going to be able to resettle - if his eyes are red and he is mostly keeping them semi closed and is unhappy I can hold him for a bit and he goes down. Usually after 45 wake up he is happy and ready to play ::) But today at second nap I was able to resettle.  I am not sure what you mean by "bringing up A time" you mean make the next a time shorter by 5-10 mins? I must say it's difficult to be so precise with times as I often get to him he has been awake for a while - I am never sure how long his eyes have been open when he wakes happy he often plays for a while before "calling"

Thanks again! I hope there are some clear questions to answer!



Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2016, 06:58:19 am »
So another BAD night with multiple waking and after over an hour and meds I fed him the second time. (11 and 3). This morning up before 6 and had to stretch him to make it to 2.5hrs awake time. Now when I put him down to nap he was very OT. And I realized thats when he can't independent sleep, he needed a lot of help now so I am expecting him to wake up in 45 mins, I'll go and hover to see if I can help him later.



Offline FPT23

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2016, 04:15:46 am »
Hi hun so sorry I've been out quite a bit!

I'm very sorry about your bad nights :(
They can be very tiring and stressful... let me make a few suggestions.

Teething and solids play a big role around this time. It is hard for me to say since I am not there, but as far as solids is concerned, from my experience... I think I was doing 2 meals a day still at that age. Breakfast and lunch only with maybe a little snack in the evening. If he's constipated, opt for non straining solids. I assume he's on purées? Pears or berries etc can help and don't cause much constipation. If you are feeding 3xs a day, maybe reduce the amount you are giving him? Maybe it's too much for him at the time. Or try combining solids- fruits that caviar constipation like apples bananas and carrots, you can offer but with maybe pear or blueberries, kwim? A balance. I would def space out solids before BT if you find it's causing discomfort. Or offer something a bit more light or lessen the amount. See if it helps? Offering plenty of water with meals can help too :) ! We've recently been teething over here and for 3 nights in a row he gave me EWs...when I saw those suckers cutting through, it made sense those NWs and EWs ::) ...so I def would do some pain relief before BT just in case if you feel that's an issue as it can def cause disruption- poor baby.

You mentioned you can't do two separate BTs? Why is that? I know atm it's a lot and seems stressful, two separate BTs but there are times he will need it. And their BTs will vary from time to time until he is a bit more consistent in his day at least. I'm sorry DH hasnt been around, I know how hard that is! I had that issue and my boys were doing two diff BTs and although it was rough and a pain, the baby needed that EBT and it really helps them. You should give it a go hun. Not always but on bad/short nap days to see if he will catch up on some sleep

Yes, bring up the next A time by a few mins means, if he short naps and his A time is normal, say for example 2hrs... if he gave u a short nap, it makes sense he will be tired quicker right? So instead of asleep by 2hrs, TRY asleep by 1.50 mark which means wind down by maybe 1.40-45min mark. Make sense? You say he is usually very happy after 45 min naps- big sign that he's UT. From his EAS you posted above, your also still on 3 naps a day which for his age he should be down to 2 by now. Your going through a nap transition and it doesn't help the situation, I know it. As I said earlier, set naps worked. Sometimes when you have that morning nap too early, it can always cause an EW the next day and turn into a cycle. If he's waking at 5 am, I would not do a nap earlier than 9am. Yes it's a long stretch but hopefully after a few days he EWs can stop- hopefully... assuming the routine is the issue for the EW NW. Also, hopefully get you a long nap to help stretch his days.

With the NWs, is he dependent on you to fall back to sleep? Has it always been this way? ...and with breastfeeding I always have to ask, is he getting enough during the day? Just to rule out that he's not genuinely hungry and nights and making up for it at night.

Many hugs!
Fabi






Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m now 8m...
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2016, 17:16:44 pm »
Oh goodness I'm in serious need of help! Don't know where to start  :-\

He is probably into a bit of separation anxiety and who knows, its seems like pain (so no teeth yet, but they have to come sometime... can't be teething for 3 months though!) TO be fair the last 2 weeks have been the worst. Exactly 2 weeks ago he actually slept through for the first time. (woke up twice 9pm and 11pm, but just quick paci, then EW at 5am, no BF) I WAS SO HAPPY! But from that night on, it's been quite different and a lot more CRYING. He is also more unhappy during the day, and even when well medicated is struggling to sleep, crying and awake.

I have stretched A time to 3hrs, so we are MOSTLY on 2 naps, sometimes he does 35 min naps... then we have to do the third nap. Here is a good day:

5am WU
5:30 - BF
6:30 - Solids
8 am - Sleep
9: 30/10 - BF
11:30 Soilds
12:30 /1 Sleep
2:30/3 - BF
4 - Solids
6 - 6:30 Bedtime (story after BF and then this is last night as an example, I don't always medicate...  (ibuprofen @BT)
9:30pm crying/paci/walk/pu/pd sleep again
10pm Awake just back to sleep and then (paracetamol)
10:30 crying - more ibuprofen
11 crying AGAIN - BF
3:30 DH settled him again till 4
5 WU

So I appreciate I should possibly be putting him down at 5pm BT for a 12 hr day... difficult though! Is that a good idea?

Then, to answer some of your questions...

regarding solids - he seems to really need a lot of food and the paed said it's not too much I am giving him. (He often cries till he gets solids and then is happy.) I have been through a lot with constipation with myself and my other LO so I know all the tricks and am managing with my paed, paedatirc nutritionalist and daily "meds" (osmotic laxatives, and even last week we did a few days of senna, but the crying started the day before I started that. His favorite food is lightly steamed broccoli which he feeds himself from large florets, he does have puree, but honestly, he eats VERY healthy. Also, he had a few days of fever (no otters symptoms) Doc said it was too high for teeth so we actually did a lab sample of his poo just to rule out nefarious things... seeing as he had no other symptoms... anyway it was clear apart from horrible candida, but no mouth/diaper evidence of that.) Yesterday I started him on a short course of reflux meds, just to rule that out too. He is arching and flailing and sounds a lot like pain to me. He has always been a copious vomiter, but so was my other LO and it didn't seem to bother him, so I thought they were both "happy spitters" Meds didn't have an immediate positive impact yesterday, but I'll do 5 days and see.)

What am I missing? Day time sleep - he is so good at independent sleep - I put him down Wide awake with paci and lovey and he is happy (unless OT or ... sore...(?)) Even if other LO is noisy he doesn't even need much wind down for naps, just take him to cot and do diaper, hug, give him the paci and say bye, he watches me leave. BT he has milk but story after.

Night time though.. he is a hot mess!

The room is very dark so I am thinking to get a good night light - the one on my angel care makes harsh shadows. I have started leaving the door open and a light outside on.

I am wondering if I need to do wake2s at 9:30 because that is pretty clockwork and then its mayhem till I finally feed him at 11. Is it too early for separation anxiety with adjusted age? I dunno - he does seem to be VERY aware of where I am during the day. (I am full time with both boys.)

Help! Hope it is going So Super well with your similarly aged LO!
Thanks again for your amazing giving on time to read all this and reply thoughtfully. I really appreciate it.

 



Offline FPT23

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2016, 06:22:08 am »
Hi! It's been awhile hasn't it!

So, your LO is now 8mths (according to your ticker)

Well first off, so sorry about the rough nights! I would def consider some sort of discomfort for that much waking.. or yes, SA as well. May I ask, how is the BF during the day going? Is he getting enough nourishment in his day from the combination of BF and solids? Also- just in case! But from what you mention with all that discomfort- it could very well be that hun. You may need to wait for all that to settle down some.

As far as your EASY. It doesn't look too bad. Here are a few suggestions. EWs can be a cause of discomfort as it was for us or OT too... even developmental. BUT, one thing I always do (personally and suggest) is if he's up at 5 am.... I do not allow a nap before 9am. Sometimes having a nap so early can cause a short day which in cause would give you an early bedtime and then even if he catches up on his sleep-- the 5am will continue since that would be a 11-12 hour day. It can easily continue and I rarely find moms who appreciate a 5am call. Haha ;) so in order to get out of that LOOP, I would absolutely either attempt to resettle back to sleep at 5am--- whether it's nursing to sleep (that's what I do! Haha and it's never became a prop) because 5am is not ok haha, or whatever to get baby back to sleep. If I wasn't successful, first nap is AT 9:00am! I PD around 8:50am and I let him sleep.

I hope this helps a bit!

And your very welcome I'm always happy to help :) xo hugs!
Fabi






Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2016, 19:42:51 pm »
Thanks so much!

First, I went and read up again on pu/pd and *red on my face* ... there were some holes in my theory! Most important of all is that according to Tracy 8m is actually too old for pu/pd.  How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)
(And to be honest I am glad because he weighs 22 lb already.) It seems they respond better to help in the cot. Which now remember is how I did it with LO#1  ::) I really need to go re read the chapter.. but it feels like I need to sleep more!

So I used the cot method last night. (I put him on his side facing away and held one hand on hip, one on shoulder, PU/PD when too upset.) There was a lot more crying, and it took almost an hour to settle, but only one more NW before the EW. And I really felt positive about the result, because what's been bothering me most is that during the day he is so good at settling himself, but at night I was just NOT helping him to figure it out, I was just soothing and soothing, not teaching him, so I am prepared for many more nights of crying, but I was anyway!

regards the EW:
I have never managed to "fix" LO#1 so he WU at 5 and often wakes LO#2.
He is also quite often super tired at the 2h 2.5hr A time mark, so I have no idea how he will make it to 4 hours without complete meltdown and not sleep well because of OT?

To answer some questions:
I am confident BF during the day is sufficient, thought he is distracted despite trying to be clever about it, and could drink better. Nights if he gets the chance he always drinks well! So he COULD be genuinely hungry, but I am not stopping cold turkey at night and he is thriving so ... what are you asking? Also, solids wise, he definitely eats very well. Good quality and quantity! Steamed broccoli and avocado are his faves, I do puree aswell as LOTS of messy finger foods. The constipation is much better these days we are (I hope!) finding a balance with the osmotic laxatives. (which are basically a way of holding water in the gut, so yet he gets water with food :) approx 200 ml through the day.

So I'll see how it goes tonight (he is already "grumbling" now at 9... I am leaving him to try settle himself, but I find the earlier it starts in the eve the worse it is going to be that night.  :-\

I was trying to cut out the milk when I started this thread, I am going to have to start working on that again... i fed him again at 3:30 last night, so feeding at 5 seems like might not put him back to sleep until he is hungry enough at that time... But I will try because as you say 5am!!!  :o At that time, the thing that has worked is co-sleeping... Do you think that is equally "safe" from prop? I don't know, bad habit wise LO#1 still comes into our bed at 5 every day and kicks all the kidneys in a unreasonable radius! One thing to mention is that here it is fully light at 5am... So blackout curtains might be a win.
 
Question - the paci.
PU/PD and Paci Use. Why they don't mix.
As I said, the room is very dark, and the mattress isn't as firm as I would like, so the paci ends up under him a lot. This means he often can't really find it by himself... I'll pretty much always grab another or find his and put it in his hand when I go to him. Sometimes lately he is crying and holding it when I go to him. I do mostly not put it in for him, but it does get dropped and thrown around and become a distraction with me trying to find or pick it up off the floor. I am quite keen for him to use it, not only because it seems too daunting to wean, but because it's been useful with LO#1 with teeth as a soother and I use it as a sleep trigger. They only have it when they sleep but it means where ever we are, I can hand out the blanket and paci and it's like "okay I sleep now" Wake up and the paci is not used till it's sleep time again.

I am just asking about it because the article makes a big deal about any prop being a non starter with teaching independent sleep. So ... if I have to put it in his hand is it a prop...?

Thanks again for your time and thoughtful responses Fabi!



Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2016, 07:07:34 am »
I feel I have to add that I have realized I was certainly guilty of AP ...

We were doing the PU but too slow on the PD.

Still NW but the cot side time and crying are already decreasing after only two nights of tactic change. So I am still prepared for the 5th night being tough and no quick fix, but so glad I went and re read the PU/PD chapter.

As a funny side note, our EW at 5 this morning, I went through and found that LO#1 had woken LO#2 by climbing into the cot! (They are still currently in separate rooms) So I had to have stern words there! Tried BF but no dice - managed to stay awake till 9am now, so we will keep trying to remedy the baby's EW. I am thinking of caping the big boy's naps to 2hrs and pushing BT to 7 (some night he is 6:30) See if that helps his EW ... But I think the 5am light out is the biggest part of the problem because he was sleeping later in the winter. (Sunny hot Christmas for us down in the southern Hemisphere.)
i'll keep updated on progress, thanks again.



Offline Palmira78

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2016, 08:41:30 am »
Hello! I am still having lots of NWs with DS2 (already 1yo) but I guess that I can share a little our experience, in case it is any help.
For us both BF and pacifier became props. I hinted that when DS2 was 6 months and now I regret not to have eliminated both at that time. Independent sleep is important. Well done using PU/PD.
We stopped BF during the nights cold turkey when DS2 was 9 months (after checking with his pediatrician) and we observed some improvement in the NWs (although not for a long time). Sending DH for a couple of nights did the trick. The best thing of it was that from then my DH and I, could share the NW's load.
When DS2 was 11 months we also eliminated the pacifier because we realized that it was a prop as well. We could have taught DS2 to look for it, however we knew that we would have to wean it at some point, so our experience was the sooner the better, the less drama. It was really easy. We started with the naps and after 5 days,  eliminated it for the nights. Before it was also our signal that it was time for sleep, but you can introduce other routines that do not involve it.
According to Pantley's book, and other literature (I unfortunately have had to study a Master's degree on it because of my DS2  :P) It is important to stop the suction to sleep association, and we have managed to do so. My feeling is that it is good to teach your baby to sleep as you mean to continue later on, for example as an adult... so without anything in his mouth, just relaxing and closing your eyes.
I am just sharing some thoughts, although I already tell you that I do not hold the secret for baby sleeping despite all my readings :-D
I hope that you start getting better nights soon. Big hug from Spain!

Offline FPT23

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2016, 17:54:58 pm »
Hello!

Well good luck with your sleep training- it will take a few nights but let's stay positive and consistent :)

...I know it seems like quite a push... but you will continue to repeat that cycle of early bedtime because he was up so early. Your ending your day early because he woke early. Your are in a vicious cycle and the ONLY way is to push through that morning nap. Sometimes when the nap comes too early it's like he's continuing his sleep, so it can be another cause for an EW. I know he's going to be tired... he's not used to it. But 2.5 for an 8.5 mth old is low. This might help his nights and may mean less of your nights up trying to soothe back to sleep ;) ...i would start pushing by 15 min increments. I personally took the jump because my oldest couldn't stay stuck inside at 5-6pm bc his brother had bedtime. On occasions I did have to if I had bad naps or catch up from OT... but, we just couldn't so I took that push and STILL on EWs (which I raaarely have them unless its discomfort mostly- teething) I continue to do the same or my day will be way too short. When he seemed tired I would just distract him-- take him outside or walk with him around the house etc. That helps when pushing A times. I like taking the big leaps personally as it's always resulted in a slightly more tired baby in the day and sleeps all night- that's just my humble opinion. Remember these are all merely suggestions. I'm not an expert ;) ....give it a go! If he gives you short OT naps, or the day you do push by 15 min increments... his next time make it shorter. So he doesn't get super OT. Makes sense right? :) don't push all A times just one.

As far as BF I was just asking if he was getting enough in general. Sometimes moms supply drops around this time when solids are more established and they are awake longer periods, and sleep longer naps. KWIM? I just always want to make sure- as a BF mom myself, that's all I'm saying :)

As far as the early light, I would do black out shades or black covers pinned up. I always have the boys rooms pitch black :)

As far as a prop- I mean that 5am call I too just latch the kid on haha ;) survival mode lol! But that was months back. LO Doesnt give me EWs (knock on wood!) ....but sometimes you may cause a habitual wake if he expects mom every day at that time.

Around this age is a regression too with all the new found physical abilities... growth spurts, teeth etc.

Hang in there and many hugs! Hope this helps u!
Fabi






Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #22 on: December 10, 2016, 09:03:11 am »
Ladies you are, and continue to be the best.

The first tooth made it's appearance yesterday, so some part of the chaos is explained.

The last night was the 5th night of the new regime, so I expected trouble (Tracy predicts this.) BUT WHOA long night, and poor kid, we had to move his cot into our room yesterday (Face Palm) because Christmas family arrive today... so with the new surroundings it was hard for him. DH took him and I only fed him at 4:30am (And in fact have mostly been making it to 5 or even 7am this last week, you are right though, I think that's how DS1 kept up he EW with the 5am milk every day...)

Once he is back in his room next week I think I'll have to gentle removal the paci and then maybe even start sleep training all over  ???.  But we have realized most times when he NW it is for the Paci, so he is still not really learning any sleeping skills  :(

I think he would be able to find it himself if he wasn't in such a poor mattress, it might as well be a hammock. Need to get DS1 a bed so DS2 can have the big boy cot! Probably better in the long run to just do it now. DS1 seems to be getting MORE attached to his not less!

I think my supply has lessened - but as you say thats normal. It's no longer a question of milk at night for us, it's NW for other reasons than hunger. HE EATS A LOT of solids during the day and drinks well enough too.

Happy holidays to all :)

PS Fabi - he is on 3hr minimum A time now and I have been having some success with the 9am morning nap. Yesterday he did 40mins but the day before was 2hr.

See you soon! :)



Offline Palmira78

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #23 on: December 12, 2016, 20:03:31 pm »
Good luck, and best wishes for the Christmas holidays :-)
By the way, from my side I have stopped having all those NWs suddently... so at the end the thing of the independent sleeping paid off. I am a believer :P Please let us know how it goes the story for you.  :D

Offline FPT23

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #24 on: December 13, 2016, 14:28:11 pm »
Happy to hear the new nap worked -- !!

Happy holidays and the changes in his surroundings can cause some disruption.

Hang in there and many hugs! :) xo
Fabi






Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #25 on: December 14, 2016, 04:43:49 am »
Thanks so much ladies. It helps so much knowing you are out there  :D

Things are still rotten over here - with the holidays it's lots of outings and short naps in strollers and carriers and night sleep in new surroundings.

After some improvement, since the holidays started things have regressed horribly. We are awake almost ever hour. He's been waking up at 4am and just WIDE awake. I thought 5am was bad!  :o

I've tried feeding him to sleep, co-sleeping... finally DH co-sleeping has given us till 6:30 this morning.

Last night he was crying and it sounded like pain so I gave him ibuprofen twice when if would settle and then wake up 10 mins later again. Still though he would wake an hour later.  ::)

Anyway as I have already said, it seems the paci needs to go, but I am waiting to have some semblance of normalcy to wean it. Maybe I shouldn't because we have visitors on and off till well into the new year. What do you ladies think? Try in the chaos?

I have a schedule question.

When he wakes at 4 and does short naps it's difficult to know how to proceed.

5am WU BF
6:30 E
7:30 BF
8:30 - 9am S
9:45 WU
10:30 E
11:30 BF
12:30 S
1:30 WU
2:30 E
3:30 BF
4:30 CN
5:00 snack
6 Bath and bed
6:30 S

If he does some longer sleeps it's much easier to adjust! When it was 4am it was even more wonky. 
Any tips!?



Offline Palmira78

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #26 on: December 14, 2016, 13:24:26 pm »
I am very sorry to read that your nights are still so complicated. I can throw some ideas in case that they can help... You cannot change your circumnstances, Christmas, new place for the crib, outings... but with what you have you can try:

1- Control the total lenght for the naps. So find out how long does your DS need to be sleeping during the day and when he falls asleep (in he stroller or wherever) set a timer and register the time. Try to ensure that the total time slept in mini naps, in the car, in the stroller does not go over the required time. Some of the constant wakings could be that your DS is under tired.
2- Looking at your schedule I would sugest that you start the day at 7:30 with BF and do not let him nap until 9:30 or so. I read that you feed him several times then but you only consider WU at 9:45... which is quite late taking into account that you DS goes to bed at 6:30 (very early for that WU time).
3- How does your DS fall asleep for BT? Assuming that you BF before bed (although I do not know if this is the case) it helpt me to separate the last breast feeding of the day from BT. You can give a bath to your DS after BF (even if he has almost fallen asleep by the end of BF). Then after the bath, place your DS fully awake but sleepy (yowning) in the crib.
The decission about the pacifier is yours. If he starts crying try soothing him stroking him slightly, taking his hand, or with PU/PD until he falls asleep. He will eventually fall asleep by himself, and when he does that will be an improvement. The manner how DS falls asleep at the begining of the night influences how he will expect to return to sleep during the NWs.

Then any regularity that you can mantain in the timings for food and naps will defenitly help. Also some consistency regarding the approach for the NWs would also be good. So decide with you DH how will you both sooth your DS when he wakes up in the night. Set up a time for a feed that you want to mantain and stick to it. The response that you give your DS should be constant to get some improvements, at leaast this was my experience. I hope that it helps. Big hugs xxx

Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #27 on: December 14, 2016, 18:36:19 pm »
Thanks! Really appreciate your taking the time to respond!
 
Unfortunately though...
1. He never naps longer than 2hrs - usually 1,5 and if it's in a stroller or carrier always less. I always note the time.

2. Sorry I used the wrong convention there in my haste. WU for the day in that example was 5am. 9:45 was Wu after nap as in that example it was a short nap day. I feed him when he EW to try get him bank to sleep - usually doesn't work - then I'll feed him again around 7 to avoid having to Bf at 9 (4 hrs after 5am, trying to "reset" the schedule to the 7am starter!)

3. I VERY rarely feed him to sleep at BT - only if he's totally OT and its unavoidable. Usual practice is story after Bf and he watches me walk out. I can walk around the room picking up clothes etc. just kiss him and say good night.

DH and I do the same thing at night, except I'm probably quicker to pick him up. We are mostly settling by giving paci into the hand then holding his body in the cot. I don't feed at night till earliest 4am. (From BT)



Offline Palmira78

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2016, 08:52:54 am »
Thanks for clarifying, and sorry for suggesting things that are not helpful to your problem. Your case is a tricky one, but stay positive, for sure things will get better. An experienced moderator will be able to give you better suggestions, I am just a mum of 2 boys :-)
You are right that your DS naps are quite short, however it is great that he does fall asleep for the night independiently, so once your DS gets over whatever is waking him he will very easyly return to sleep by himself.
Regarding the consistency I meant about the fact of trying co-sleeping, feeding... etc. But I totally understand that when you are exausted you try anything that can work. My best wishes and I hope that the trend changes soon....

Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2016, 20:07:46 pm »
Thanks so much for your input though! It's nice to feel the support  :D

Things have gotten worse though!  :o

Last night (DH was on "duty") LO woke up around 10 and then from 12 to 1 he would settle and then wake again after 10-15 mins. So eventually I drugged and then when that failed, fed him because it had to be one of those two. (pain or hunger.) he was hungry as he DRANK those gulping swallows. mmmm. then slept till 5 when I fed him again and then woke 6:30. He napped so well today though!

I keep moaning on here, but Tracy has already told me what to do... wean the paci. Of course part of me still doubts that because we do find him crying with it in his mouth, and he does often put it back in himself. He is still on reflux meds. Last night I was wondering if it was 9m GS.  Tonight not looking good as he was crying after an hour of sleep, I medicated and then he was crying just less than an hour again. (So I thought it must be a burp.) It's like being a jolly detective!!!



Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #30 on: December 28, 2016, 10:51:25 am »
Hi mums! Please HELP!

We are really at a low point  :'(

He is now 9m and no change.

I haven't weaned the paci because he can and does use it himself. Often when we go to him it's in his hand or even in his crying lips. I had managed to stop feeding him at all till 5am, but the last few weeks it's been back to one of us trying to settle him from between 11 /1 until 3 when I finally feed him. at around 3/4. DH is suggesting I just go back to feeding him closer to midnight/whenever he first wakes, like a DF... Right now after feeding him at 3/4 am he calms down and I leave him to go to sleep by himself. (He doesn't feed back to sleep, but he does drink a lot = one boob isn't enough.) He is a very hungry boy, he cries for food during the day and eats big portions of very healthy food. It may be that he isn't getting enough milk as he is often distracted at bf. He is no longer constipated, he drinks plenty water which has solved that problem. He has first couple of teeth and is gaining mobility which could be bothering him with NW. He is right over a storm cloud in wonderweeks, but there is no change since 6m so I don't think thats it. There could be some separation anxiety, but it's just been going on for so long! I am struggling to cope with lack of sleep - I am HAPPY if I get one 3hr stretch after the feed.

I didn't try weaning the paci because the with my method of putting him to sleep, I am not there - I just give it to him in his hand and he watches me walkout. I hang around to make sure he sings himself to sleep, if he gets upset I go and give him a hug or a pat. But I think staying in the room to do the gentle removal would stimulate him too much. Perhaps I should just try.

His schedule changes a lot depending on WU which can be between 4:30 and 6:30

yesterday

6:30 WU BF
7:30 - solids
9:30 - S
11:40 - BF (I had to wake him)
12:30 - E
2:45 - S
4:15 -BF
5 -S
7 BF S
multiple NW, usually starting 11pm
sometimes awake for an hour between 2/3 and 3/4 till I finally give up and feed him

I do usually aim for a 4hr BF schedule, difficult on a 3+ A time schedule with 2hr sleeps.




Offline Palmira78

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2016, 08:43:11 am »
Hello, and Happy New Year! :-)
I am very sorry to heard that things aren't going well. I agree with you that the pacifier is not a problem and since he can use it himself I would go on with it. There is no need to wean it since you do not need to replug it (as it was my case with my DS). I am just going to give you some suggestions in case they help. If they don't work take it easy, my LO is now one YO and getting better... so things will improve eventually ;-)

- The nap time (from your EASY) seems on the higher side. In the past posts that was shorter, has something change? I would try to keep it on the lower limit according to "standard" sleeping charts and see what happens.

- Have you considered to give your LO a nice meal closer to BF and before BT. For example at 6.00pm you could try to feed him dinner (high in protein and fat that takes longer to digest - include some salmon or beef). Do not feed fruit then (with the exception of avocado) since fruits fill in the belly but they are low in callories.  Then for example BF at 6:40, and place him to sleep around 7.00. I know that the meals timing (and the amounts) are somewhat cultural. Neverthelss it is harmless to try feeding more food closer to bedtime. Remember that milk is really easy and quick to digest (and even more, breast milk).

- I know that it can be a pain but... have you considered expressing some milk before BT and asking your DH to give him the bottle if he wakes up hungry so you can have some rest? Alternatively you can offer him some formula. Furthermore, the bottle with your milk is quicker and you could return faster to bed. Also it does not reward your LO with long contact and interaction so reduces the incentive for waking up. If the problem is hunger you also must rule this out (but in a confortable way).

Hey! Let me know how it goes and good luck. I hope that you start getting better nights soon.
Big hug xxx

Offline Crispysage

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2017, 19:16:04 pm »
Thanks :) these are all good ideas and I have not tried them all. (Formula...) Things have degenerated further.

S time during the day I usually have at 3.5 hr. I have recently tried dinner right before BT and it's very high protein and volume. Then BF and lately he's been exhausted and sometimes milk hazes or feeds to sleep.

I dunno - formula... I was hoping to not intro MORE food at night. Seems like at 9m he should be able to go without food by now.

Anyway.

Thanks.




Offline Palmira78

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Re: Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2017, 08:08:08 am »
Hello there. How are things going? Perhaps after going back to the routine, and without the family visiting your place you have make some progress?
Regarding your last post, I agree with you that introducing food during the night is not the way to go.
My suggestion to ensure that you LO goes to sleep not hungry would be: dinner at 6:00, then after 10 minutes from dinner breastfeed, then bath, and then offer him some formula. Finally put him to sleep. Some babys really need lots of food. My experience is that if my LO is too tired will not have a full feed of BF, however he will eat a little bit more with the bottle because it is quicker. Besides he never falls asleep with the bottle but he does with the breast. It is just a suggestion in case it helps.
Anyway, let me know how are things going! Big hug xxx