Help with night waking and dropping night feeds, 6m

[FPT23]

Hi hun so sorry I've been out quite a bit!

I'm very sorry about your bad nights
They can be very tiring and stressful... let me make a few suggestions.

Teething and solids play a big role around this time. It is hard for me to say since I am not there, but as far as solids is concerned, from my experience... I think I was doing 2 meals a day still at that age. Breakfast and lunch only with maybe a little snack in the evening. If he's constipated, opt for non straining solids. I assume he's on purées? Pears or berries etc can help and don't cause much constipation. If you are feeding 3xs a day, maybe reduce the amount you are giving him? Maybe it's too much for him at the time. Or try combining solids- fruits that caviar constipation like apples bananas and carrots, you can offer but with maybe pear or blueberries, kwim? A balance. I would def space out solids before BT if you find it's causing discomfort. Or offer something a bit more light or lessen the amount. See if it helps? Offering plenty of water with meals can help too ! We've recently been teething over here and for 3 nights in a row he gave me EWs...when I saw those suckers cutting through, it made sense those NWs and EWs ...so I def would do some pain relief before BT just in case if you feel that's an issue as it can def cause disruption- poor baby.

You mentioned you can't do two separate BTs? Why is that? I know atm it's a lot and seems stressful, two separate BTs but there are times he will need it. And their BTs will vary from time to time until he is a bit more consistent in his day at least. I'm sorry DH hasnt been around, I know how hard that is! I had that issue and my boys were doing two diff BTs and although it was rough and a pain, the baby needed that EBT and it really helps them. You should give it a go hun. Not always but on bad/short nap days to see if he will catch up on some sleep

Yes, bring up the next A time by a few mins means, if he short naps and his A time is normal, say for example 2hrs... if he gave u a short nap, it makes sense he will be tired quicker right? So instead of asleep by 2hrs, TRY asleep by 1.50 mark which means wind down by maybe 1.40-45min mark. Make sense? You say he is usually very happy after 45 min naps- big sign that he's UT. From his EAS you posted above, your also still on 3 naps a day which for his age he should be down to 2 by now. Your going through a nap transition and it doesn't help the situation, I know it. As I said earlier, set naps worked. Sometimes when you have that morning nap too early, it can always cause an EW the next day and turn into a cycle. If he's waking at 5 am, I would not do a nap earlier than 9am. Yes it's a long stretch but hopefully after a few days he EWs can stop- hopefully... assuming the routine is the issue for the EW NW. Also, hopefully get you a long nap to help stretch his days.

With the NWs, is he dependent on you to fall back to sleep? Has it always been this way? ...and with breastfeeding I always have to ask, is he getting enough during the day? Just to rule out that he's not genuinely hungry and nights and making up for it at night.

Many hugs!

[Crispysage]

Oh goodness I'm in serious need of help! Don't know where to start 

He is probably into a bit of separation anxiety and who knows, its seems like pain (so no teeth yet, but they have to come sometime... can't be teething for 3 months though!) TO be fair the last 2 weeks have been the worst. Exactly 2 weeks ago he actually slept through for the first time. (woke up twice 9pm and 11pm, but just quick paci, then EW at 5am, no BF) I WAS SO HAPPY! But from that night on, it's been quite different and a lot more CRYING. He is also more unhappy during the day, and even when well medicated is struggling to sleep, crying and awake.

I have stretched A time to 3hrs, so we are MOSTLY on 2 naps, sometimes he does 35 min naps... then we have to do the third nap. Here is a good day:

5am WU
5:30 - BF
6:30 - Solids
8 am - Sleep
9: 30/10 - BF
11:30 Soilds
12:30 /1 Sleep
2:30/3 - BF
4 - Solids
6 - 6:30 Bedtime (story after BF and then this is last night as an example, I don't always medicate...  (ibuprofen @BT)
9:30pm crying/paci/walk/pu/pd sleep again
10pm Awake just back to sleep and then (paracetamol)
10:30 crying - more ibuprofen
11 crying AGAIN - BF
3:30 DH settled him again till 4
5 WU

So I appreciate I should possibly be putting him down at 5pm BT for a 12 hr day... difficult though! Is that a good idea?

Then, to answer some of your questions...

regarding solids - he seems to really need a lot of food and the paed said it's not too much I am giving him. (He often cries till he gets solids and then is happy.) I have been through a lot with constipation with myself and my other LO so I know all the tricks and am managing with my paed, paedatirc nutritionalist and daily "meds" (osmotic laxatives, and even last week we did a few days of senna, but the crying started the day before I started that. His favorite food is lightly steamed broccoli which he feeds himself from large florets, he does have puree, but honestly, he eats VERY healthy. Also, he had a few days of fever (no otters symptoms) Doc said it was too high for teeth so we actually did a lab sample of his poo just to rule out nefarious things... seeing as he had no other symptoms... anyway it was clear apart from horrible candida, but no mouth/diaper evidence of that.) Yesterday I started him on a short course of reflux meds, just to rule that out too. He is arching and flailing and sounds a lot like pain to me. He has always been a copious vomiter, but so was my other LO and it didn't seem to bother him, so I thought they were both "happy spitters" Meds didn't have an immediate positive impact yesterday, but I'll do 5 days and see.)

What am I missing? Day time sleep - he is so good at independent sleep - I put him down Wide awake with paci and lovey and he is happy (unless OT or ... sore...(?)) Even if other LO is noisy he doesn't even need much wind down for naps, just take him to cot and do diaper, hug, give him the paci and say bye, he watches me leave. BT he has milk but story after.

Night time though.. he is a hot mess!

The room is very dark so I am thinking to get a good night light - the one on my angel care makes harsh shadows. I have started leaving the door open and a light outside on.

I am wondering if I need to do wake2s at 9:30 because that is pretty clockwork and then its mayhem till I finally feed him at 11. Is it too early for separation anxiety with adjusted age? I dunno - he does seem to be VERY aware of where I am during the day. (I am full time with both boys.)

Help! Hope it is going So Super well with your similarly aged LO!
Thanks again for your amazing giving on time to read all this and reply thoughtfully. I really appreciate it.

 

[FPT23]

Hi! It's been awhile hasn't it!

So, your LO is now 8mths (according to your ticker)

Well first off, so sorry about the rough nights! I would def consider some sort of discomfort for that much waking.. or yes, SA as well. May I ask, how is the BF during the day going? Is he getting enough nourishment in his day from the combination of BF and solids? Also- just in case! But from what you mention with all that discomfort- it could very well be that hun. You may need to wait for all that to settle down some.

As far as your EASY. It doesn't look too bad. Here are a few suggestions. EWs can be a cause of discomfort as it was for us or OT too... even developmental. BUT, one thing I always do (personally and suggest) is if he's up at 5 am.... I do not allow a nap before 9am. Sometimes having a nap so early can cause a short day which in cause would give you an early bedtime and then even if he catches up on his sleep-- the 5am will continue since that would be a 11-12 hour day. It can easily continue and I rarely find moms who appreciate a 5am call. Haha so in order to get out of that LOOP, I would absolutely either attempt to resettle back to sleep at 5am--- whether it's nursing to sleep (that's what I do! Haha and it's never became a prop) because 5am is not ok haha, or whatever to get baby back to sleep. If I wasn't successful, first nap is AT 9:00am! I PD around 8:50am and I let him sleep.

I hope this helps a bit!

And your very welcome I'm always happy to help xo hugs!

[Crispysage]

Thanks so much!

First, I went and read up again on pu/pd and *red on my face* ... there were some holes in my theory! Most important of all is that according to Tracy 8m is actually too old for pu/pd.  How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)
(And to be honest I am glad because he weighs 22 lb already.) It seems they respond better to help in the cot. Which now remember is how I did it with LO#1  I really need to go re read the chapter.. but it feels like I need to sleep more!

So I used the cot method last night. (I put him on his side facing away and held one hand on hip, one on shoulder, PU/PD when too upset.) There was a lot more crying, and it took almost an hour to settle, but only one more NW before the EW. And I really felt positive about the result, because what's been bothering me most is that during the day he is so good at settling himself, but at night I was just NOT helping him to figure it out, I was just soothing and soothing, not teaching him, so I am prepared for many more nights of crying, but I was anyway!

regards the EW:
I have never managed to "fix" LO#1 so he WU at 5 and often wakes LO#2.
He is also quite often super tired at the 2h 2.5hr A time mark, so I have no idea how he will make it to 4 hours without complete meltdown and not sleep well because of OT?

To answer some questions:
I am confident BF during the day is sufficient, thought he is distracted despite trying to be clever about it, and could drink better. Nights if he gets the chance he always drinks well! So he COULD be genuinely hungry, but I am not stopping cold turkey at night and he is thriving so ... what are you asking? Also, solids wise, he definitely eats very well. Good quality and quantity! Steamed broccoli and avocado are his faves, I do puree aswell as LOTS of messy finger foods. The constipation is much better these days we are (I hope!) finding a balance with the osmotic laxatives. (which are basically a way of holding water in the gut, so yet he gets water with food approx 200 ml through the day.

So I'll see how it goes tonight (he is already "grumbling" now at 9... I am leaving him to try settle himself, but I find the earlier it starts in the eve the worse it is going to be that night. 

I was trying to cut out the milk when I started this thread, I am going to have to start working on that again... i fed him again at 3:30 last night, so feeding at 5 seems like might not put him back to sleep until he is hungry enough at that time... But I will try because as you say 5am!!!  At that time, the thing that has worked is co-sleeping... Do you think that is equally "safe" from prop? I don't know, bad habit wise LO#1 still comes into our bed at 5 every day and kicks all the kidneys in a unreasonable radius! One thing to mention is that here it is fully light at 5am... So blackout curtains might be a win.
 
Question - the paci.
PU/PD and Paci Use. Why they don't mix.
As I said, the room is very dark, and the mattress isn't as firm as I would like, so the paci ends up under him a lot. This means he often can't really find it by himself... I'll pretty much always grab another or find his and put it in his hand when I go to him. Sometimes lately he is crying and holding it when I go to him. I do mostly not put it in for him, but it does get dropped and thrown around and become a distraction with me trying to find or pick it up off the floor. I am quite keen for him to use it, not only because it seems too daunting to wean, but because it's been useful with LO#1 with teeth as a soother and I use it as a sleep trigger. They only have it when they sleep but it means where ever we are, I can hand out the blanket and paci and it's like "okay I sleep now" Wake up and the paci is not used till it's sleep time again.

I am just asking about it because the article makes a big deal about any prop being a non starter with teaching independent sleep. So ... if I have to put it in his hand is it a prop...?

Thanks again for your time and thoughtful responses Fabi!

[Crispysage]

I feel I have to add that I have realized I was certainly guilty of AP ...

We were doing the PU but too slow on the PD.

Still NW but the cot side time and crying are already decreasing after only two nights of tactic change. So I am still prepared for the 5th night being tough and no quick fix, but so glad I went and re read the PU/PD chapter.

As a funny side note, our EW at 5 this morning, I went through and found that LO#1 had woken LO#2 by climbing into the cot! (They are still currently in separate rooms) So I had to have stern words there! Tried BF but no dice - managed to stay awake till 9am now, so we will keep trying to remedy the baby's EW. I am thinking of caping the big boy's naps to 2hrs and pushing BT to 7 (some night he is 6:30) See if that helps his EW ... But I think the 5am light out is the biggest part of the problem because he was sleeping later in the winter. (Sunny hot Christmas for us down in the southern Hemisphere.)
i'll keep updated on progress, thanks again.

[Palmira78]

Hello! I am still having lots of NWs with DS2 (already 1yo) but I guess that I can share a little our experience, in case it is any help.
For us both BF and pacifier became props. I hinted that when DS2 was 6 months and now I regret not to have eliminated both at that time. Independent sleep is important. Well done using PU/PD.
We stopped BF during the nights cold turkey when DS2 was 9 months (after checking with his pediatrician) and we observed some improvement in the NWs (although not for a long time). Sending DH for a couple of nights did the trick. The best thing of it was that from then my DH and I, could share the NW's load.
When DS2 was 11 months we also eliminated the pacifier because we realized that it was a prop as well. We could have taught DS2 to look for it, however we knew that we would have to wean it at some point, so our experience was the sooner the better, the less drama. It was really easy. We started with the naps and after 5 days,  eliminated it for the nights. Before it was also our signal that it was time for sleep, but you can introduce other routines that do not involve it.
According to Pantley's book, and other literature (I unfortunately have had to study a Master's degree on it because of my DS2  ) It is important to stop the suction to sleep association, and we have managed to do so. My feeling is that it is good to teach your baby to sleep as you mean to continue later on, for example as an adult... so without anything in his mouth, just relaxing and closing your eyes.
I am just sharing some thoughts, although I already tell you that I do not hold the secret for baby sleeping despite all my readings :-D
I hope that you start getting better nights soon. Big hug from Spain!

[FPT23]

Hello!

Well good luck with your sleep training- it will take a few nights but let's stay positive and consistent

...I know it seems like quite a push... but you will continue to repeat that cycle of early bedtime because he was up so early. Your ending your day early because he woke early. Your are in a vicious cycle and the ONLY way is to push through that morning nap. Sometimes when the nap comes too early it's like he's continuing his sleep, so it can be another cause for an EW. I know he's going to be tired... he's not used to it. But 2.5 for an 8.5 mth old is low. This might help his nights and may mean less of your nights up trying to soothe back to sleep ...i would start pushing by 15 min increments. I personally took the jump because my oldest couldn't stay stuck inside at 5-6pm bc his brother had bedtime. On occasions I did have to if I had bad naps or catch up from OT... but, we just couldn't so I took that push and STILL on EWs (which I raaarely have them unless its discomfort mostly- teething) I continue to do the same or my day will be way too short. When he seemed tired I would just distract him-- take him outside or walk with him around the house etc. That helps when pushing A times. I like taking the big leaps personally as it's always resulted in a slightly more tired baby in the day and sleeps all night- that's just my humble opinion. Remember these are all merely suggestions. I'm not an expert ....give it a go! If he gives you short OT naps, or the day you do push by 15 min increments... his next time make it shorter. So he doesn't get super OT. Makes sense right? don't push all A times just one.

As far as BF I was just asking if he was getting enough in general. Sometimes moms supply drops around this time when solids are more established and they are awake longer periods, and sleep longer naps. KWIM? I just always want to make sure- as a BF mom myself, that's all I'm saying

As far as the early light, I would do black out shades or black covers pinned up. I always have the boys rooms pitch black

As far as a prop- I mean that 5am call I too just latch the kid on haha survival mode lol! But that was months back. LO Doesnt give me EWs (knock on wood!) ....but sometimes you may cause a habitual wake if he expects mom every day at that time.

Around this age is a regression too with all the new found physical abilities... growth spurts, teeth etc.

Hang in there and many hugs! Hope this helps u!

[Crispysage]

Ladies you are, and continue to be the best.

The first tooth made it's appearance yesterday, so some part of the chaos is explained.

The last night was the 5th night of the new regime, so I expected trouble (Tracy predicts this.) BUT WHOA long night, and poor kid, we had to move his cot into our room yesterday (Face Palm) because Christmas family arrive today... so with the new surroundings it was hard for him. DH took him and I only fed him at 4:30am (And in fact have mostly been making it to 5 or even 7am this last week, you are right though, I think that's how DS1 kept up he EW with the 5am milk every day...)

Once he is back in his room next week I think I'll have to gentle removal the paci and then maybe even start sleep training all over  .  But we have realized most times when he NW it is for the Paci, so he is still not really learning any sleeping skills 

I think he would be able to find it himself if he wasn't in such a poor mattress, it might as well be a hammock. Need to get DS1 a bed so DS2 can have the big boy cot! Probably better in the long run to just do it now. DS1 seems to be getting MORE attached to his not less!

I think my supply has lessened - but as you say thats normal. It's no longer a question of milk at night for us, it's NW for other reasons than hunger. HE EATS A LOT of solids during the day and drinks well enough too.

Happy holidays to all

PS Fabi - he is on 3hr minimum A time now and I have been having some success with the 9am morning nap. Yesterday he did 40mins but the day before was 2hr.

See you soon!

[Palmira78]

Good luck, and best wishes for the Christmas holidays :-)
By the way, from my side I have stopped having all those NWs suddently... so at the end the thing of the independent sleeping paid off. I am a believer Please let us know how it goes the story for you. 

[FPT23]

Happy to hear the new nap worked -- !!

Happy holidays and the changes in his surroundings can cause some disruption.

Hang in there and many hugs! xo

[Crispysage]

Thanks so much ladies. It helps so much knowing you are out there 

Things are still rotten over here - with the holidays it's lots of outings and short naps in strollers and carriers and night sleep in new surroundings.

After some improvement, since the holidays started things have regressed horribly. We are awake almost ever hour. He's been waking up at 4am and just WIDE awake. I thought 5am was bad! 

I've tried feeding him to sleep, co-sleeping... finally DH co-sleeping has given us till 6:30 this morning.

Last night he was crying and it sounded like pain so I gave him ibuprofen twice when if would settle and then wake up 10 mins later again. Still though he would wake an hour later. 

Anyway as I have already said, it seems the paci needs to go, but I am waiting to have some semblance of normalcy to wean it. Maybe I shouldn't because we have visitors on and off till well into the new year. What do you ladies think? Try in the chaos?

I have a schedule question.

When he wakes at 4 and does short naps it's difficult to know how to proceed.

5am WU BF
6:30 E
7:30 BF
8:30 - 9am S
9:45 WU
10:30 E
11:30 BF
12:30 S
1:30 WU
2:30 E
3:30 BF
4:30 CN
5:00 snack
6 Bath and bed
6:30 S

If he does some longer sleeps it's much easier to adjust! When it was 4am it was even more wonky. 
Any tips!?

[Palmira78]

I am very sorry to read that your nights are still so complicated. I can throw some ideas in case that they can help... You cannot change your circumnstances, Christmas, new place for the crib, outings... but with what you have you can try:

1- Control the total lenght for the naps. So find out how long does your DS need to be sleeping during the day and when he falls asleep (in he stroller or wherever) set a timer and register the time. Try to ensure that the total time slept in mini naps, in the car, in the stroller does not go over the required time. Some of the constant wakings could be that your DS is under tired.
2- Looking at your schedule I would sugest that you start the day at 7:30 with BF and do not let him nap until 9:30 or so. I read that you feed him several times then but you only consider WU at 9:45... which is quite late taking into account that you DS goes to bed at 6:30 (very early for that WU time).
3- How does your DS fall asleep for BT? Assuming that you BF before bed (although I do not know if this is the case) it helpt me to separate the last breast feeding of the day from BT. You can give a bath to your DS after BF (even if he has almost fallen asleep by the end of BF). Then after the bath, place your DS fully awake but sleepy (yowning) in the crib.
The decission about the pacifier is yours. If he starts crying try soothing him stroking him slightly, taking his hand, or with PU/PD until he falls asleep. He will eventually fall asleep by himself, and when he does that will be an improvement. The manner how DS falls asleep at the begining of the night influences how he will expect to return to sleep during the NWs.

Then any regularity that you can mantain in the timings for food and naps will defenitly help. Also some consistency regarding the approach for the NWs would also be good. So decide with you DH how will you both sooth your DS when he wakes up in the night. Set up a time for a feed that you want to mantain and stick to it. The response that you give your DS should be constant to get some improvements, at leaast this was my experience. I hope that it helps. Big hugs xxx

[Crispysage]

Thanks! Really appreciate your taking the time to respond!
 
Unfortunately though...
1. He never naps longer than 2hrs - usually 1,5 and if it's in a stroller or carrier always less. I always note the time.

2. Sorry I used the wrong convention there in my haste. WU for the day in that example was 5am. 9:45 was Wu after nap as in that example it was a short nap day. I feed him when he EW to try get him bank to sleep - usually doesn't work - then I'll feed him again around 7 to avoid having to Bf at 9 (4 hrs after 5am, trying to "reset" the schedule to the 7am starter!)

3. I VERY rarely feed him to sleep at BT - only if he's totally OT and its unavoidable. Usual practice is story after Bf and he watches me walk out. I can walk around the room picking up clothes etc. just kiss him and say good night.

DH and I do the same thing at night, except I'm probably quicker to pick him up. We are mostly settling by giving paci into the hand then holding his body in the cot. I don't feed at night till earliest 4am. (From BT)

[Palmira78]

Thanks for clarifying, and sorry for suggesting things that are not helpful to your problem. Your case is a tricky one, but stay positive, for sure things will get better. An experienced moderator will be able to give you better suggestions, I am just a mum of 2 boys :-)
You are right that your DS naps are quite short, however it is great that he does fall asleep for the night independiently, so once your DS gets over whatever is waking him he will very easyly return to sleep by himself.
Regarding the consistency I meant about the fact of trying co-sleeping, feeding... etc. But I totally understand that when you are exausted you try anything that can work. My best wishes and I hope that the trend changes soon....

[Crispysage]

Thanks so much for your input though! It's nice to feel the support 

Things have gotten worse though! 

Last night (DH was on "duty") LO woke up around 10 and then from 12 to 1 he would settle and then wake again after 10-15 mins. So eventually I drugged and then when that failed, fed him because it had to be one of those two. (pain or hunger.) he was hungry as he DRANK those gulping swallows. mmmm. then slept till 5 when I fed him again and then woke 6:30. He napped so well today though!

I keep moaning on here, but Tracy has already told me what to do... wean the paci. Of course part of me still doubts that because we do find him crying with it in his mouth, and he does often put it back in himself. He is still on reflux meds. Last night I was wondering if it was 9m GS.  Tonight not looking good as he was crying after an hour of sleep, I medicated and then he was crying just less than an hour again. (So I thought it must be a burp.) It's like being a jolly detective!!!