11 Months old sitting down and waking often to get the pacifier back

[Palmira78]

Hi there! My 11 months old is still not sleeping through the night. Lately he wakes up and sits and/or stands up... for an hour. Supposedly this should be a short lived event, but it has been taking place for several weeks now, so I would like some advice regarding our EASY routine, and any tips that could help. He wakes up in average twice per night, and is also giving us early wake ups. We have recently delayed the BT (from 7:30pm to 8:30pm) since he may need less sleeping time during the night.

E- 6:00 Nurse for 45 minutes!!! :-(
S- 10:00-10:30
E- 11:30
S- 13:00-14:30
E- 15:30 Nurse + fruits
E- 18:30 Formula 90 ml
E- 19:15 Dinner
E- 20:15 Nurse
BT- 20:30
My DH and I have tried to re-settle or delay the breakfast to a nicer time like 7:00, but if he wakes at 5:40 it is impossible to make him to go back to sleep, he only wants to eat. In addition whilst in during the day he takes 15-20 minutes to nurse, for breakfast he takes 45 minutes eating slowly and I cannot sleep meanwhile. If I put him back in his crib he cries.
When my LO wakes up during the night we just go there and give him the pacifier and normally he continues sleeping (I do not nurse him to sleep during the night anymore). Lately as I mentioned, he wakes around 1.00 AM and continuously sits down or stands up. We put him down and say that it is sleeping time. But he can do it one hundred times. Our latest trick is to put one of his arms inside the sleeping bag so he cannot sit so easily. Once he is still and after a long while, he goes back to sleep. I am not sure if this trick is very gentle to him though...

Any ideas/advice regarding our routine? should I eliminate the first short nap and leave him to just 1 nap?
Any suggestions regarding the practice time for sitting and standing up? My DS1 never had so much fun during the nights 







 

[lolsyb1982]

Hi there!

My dd2 is also 11 months. I would say it's probably a little too early to drop to one nap. Whilst a LO of this age could handle it on the odd day it would likely end in OT disaster.

Your last A time is pretty long from 2.30-8.30. Have you tried an earlier BT of say 7 as he could be getting OT by the end of the day.

We too get the whole standing up thing (nap and BT) and it's been going on for some time so I'm no help there I'm afraid!

[Martini~]

You have just eliminated the night feeds all at once which also might be a culprit. At 2:1 transition wakings at 5/5:30 are common as they are usually in UT/OT loop and need some help to get to sleep. I also wouldn't drop to 1 nap - seems a bit early and his day is extremly long. Why have you pushed the bedtime by 1h at once? Have anything changed after that?

Ps. Paci addiction is definitely a case here, try to work on him to replug by himself.

[Palmira78]

Thanks Martini and thanks lolsyb1982 for your comments, I appreciate them a lot. They give me some food for thought...

Some weeks ago when we started getting trouble with the NWs we slowly pushed backwards the BT, from 7:30 to the 8:30pm. We wanted to avoid those early WU and long NWs. We felt that they were caused due to being under tired. We compared how much our DS1 slept at the same age and he used to be at just 10-11 hours during the nights, and only slept 1 nap. Ideally we wanted that our DS2 slept from 8:30 pm to 7:30am (11 hours), whilst maintaining the 2 naps (2.5h in total). I must say that both naps take place in the kindergarten, so I have little control over them.

Regarding the night-feeds, we eliminated them already 2 months ago, and for a while we had no trouble. In fact we had excellent nights. During the last days (nights) we have tried lots of things, one of them giving him a bottle during the NWs and giving him extra food during the day. Most of the times he does no want it, but when he has drunk it, he still remained awake for a long time... So we guessed that this was not really the answer, but still we try it since we are a little bit desperate.

Tonight I am going to put him to sleep a little bit earlier, for example at 8, and check if this helps or not. He never has an issue to fall asleep once we follow the BT routine. I will also guide him to pick the pacifier himself, although I feel that what he craves is the contact with us, our touch over his face when we replug it.

You have asked me if something has changed recently... Well, lately DS is moving around a lot, trying to stand up and interacting more everyday. Constantly he is clapping his hands and trying to get our attention. He goes for the prohibited things like touching the tv, and looks at us with a smile. He is progressing. I wonder if his "improvements" cause him some kind of restless feelings. Also he is teething, but we give him some ibuprofen before BT.

I wish that we could know what was the answer to these Nws. When I talk to my work colleagues and friends, and they tell me that their babies (younger) are STTN, I cannot avoid to feel that it is my fault. I feel very guilty and hopeless. The only thing that I am sure of is that I do not want to try the Ferber (CIO) methods, but I am unsure about the rest.
   
 

[Martini~]

Honey - your friends have their own babies and there is nothing wrong with baby not sleeping at that age. There are different babies - that's all. And my honest opinion about "friends" whose babies sleep well are...ahhh. Usually it means that they sleep with 3 quick replug of dummy or from 10pm to 6am which is a full nights for those parents. So don't listen to them.

I have followed your previous thread as being honest I was curious if you will be successful with eliminating NF with the method you chose. The case is in my opinion that your DS is not an IS (you were rocking him to get him to sleep instead of milk yes?) and some babies need to go sleep totally independently if you want them to sleep all night. Many babies have waking around 5/6am at that age as I said as they are in UT/OT loop because of 2:1 transition and for couple of months there is not much you can do to stop wakings at 5/6am. The case is that if they wake at 5/6am - they should be able to get back to sleep. The problem is that if the baby needs your presence to go to sleep, at 5am he will call for you but than is too wired to go back to sleep. So IS skills are extremely important at that age. How is he settling now?

[Palmira78]

Indeed my DS2 never was an independent sleeper. We never rocked him or walked him to sleep but I did nurse him, held him in my arms and also kept his body still with the paci on to help him sleep since he is very spirited and nervious. Nowadays he does IS in the kindergarten where they just plug his paci and leave. At home we sometimes plug his paci and leave, or if it gets difficult we keep him still and stay with him until he sleeps. Lately we have to put him down, because he gets up but never take him out of the crib.
The last thing before falling asleep for the night is nursing. Should I try to avoid it?
In the kindergarten they have told me that they will help me to eliminate the paci for the naps when he is 1 year old. Should I try sooner?

[Palmira78]

The lack of long stretches of sleep continues. Every 2 hours our DS needs re-settling. It normally means re-plug the pacifier so we have decided to start next week eliminating it from the naps.
Also I have started to nurse before BT in a room with lots of light so DS does not fall asleep. Then when he finishes we place him awake in the crib and quickly falls asleep (with paci on :-()
We will see if there is any progress any time soon...

[Palmira78]

Just an update... We have eliminated the pacifier for naps and nights, and it has not been difficult. So there are no props anymore, no nursing and no pacifier re-plugging.
At BT, we place our son awake in the crib and he falls asleep quickly and independently. We play a music and stroke him and this is the way he falls asleep. This is also the way that we re-settle, normally without moving him out of the crib, unless (this is very rare) he gets very angry and then we take him and do PU/PD until he relaxes and continues sleeping. May be I am too eager to see results but the NWs continue. We have tested as well early BT and later BT to see if there is any difference, but no improvement has been observed.

We recently have in average 4 NWs per night, despite he is already an independent sleeper. We are a little bit desperate because we do not know what else can we try. We medicate before BT since he is teething but this makes no change. I have checked with a pediatrician and she said that it is totally normal that he awakes 4, that it is a matter of time. I am a little mad since she has not performed any tests to see if there is any medical condition causing the NWs. Unfortunately here (Spain) there are 2 "medical" approaches: you do Ferber, or you accept the situation as normal.
My husband and I are really exhausted, and we are running out of ideas regarding what to do. Any advice would be very much appreciated....

[Martini~]

Honey he is not and independent sleeper at all:). You wrote it by yourself - he goes to sleep with music ON and you stroking him. He expects the same at every NW:).

[Palmira78]

Thanks Martini for your comment. We followed the gentle removal plan from Pantley and the way we put now our DS to sleep is recommended there. Also it comes on the FAQ of this forum...
In any case you are right regarding independence. I guess if DS was already totally independent I would not be asking for support. Please any ideas regarding how to improve the situation and help our DS to become an independent sleeper? What are the steps that you would follow?

[Martini~]

Honey I am sorry I don't know Pantley well - but she is much soft than Tracy I would say, approves cosleeping and is not about pushing a child into any direction but I might be wrong.
I think that you did everything right but you just need to go one step further and further. So it's great he goes to sleep in his bed but stop stroking him or do it rarely, move yourself from his bed towards door and finally just after putting him down awake you should be able to leave him to settle by himself. Some children don't need it but some will have to be a total IS at that age to sleep nicely at night. And I would also leave music for preparation to sleep/ ritual not for settling. When he goes to sleep it should silent there or white noise (this should be than on for the whole night).

[Palmira78]

The last 2 nights we have put our DS in the crib for bed time fully awake... crying awake. I have changed our routine and now I nurse before bath time in order to ensure that he is not falling asleep when I placed him in the crib. After the bath, and pajamas, I went to his bedroom played the music just for preparation to sleep however he started crying since we were not following his previous routine and he was tired. Giving the fact that he was not relaxing but the opposite, I put DS in the crib without music and without strokes, no lights on either. Only my presence in the room. He cried for a minute and then he fell asleep on his own. It was really quickly, so I was happy...
The thing is that we have not experienced any improvement in the number of NWs, and now every time he wakes he cries with desperation and takes longer to re-settle. Perhaps it is too early to see the improvements?
The next step would be, I guess, to place our DS in the crib and leave the room, but I am not sure if this would have an influence in the NWs. Also I feel really sad since listening so much crying feels like if we are letting him CIO, despite we are with our DS in the room.

[Martini~]

2 nights is still not enough Honey, so wait a moment to see some improvements. Definitely the next step is NOT letting him CIO. If after we are sure he is a IS, he still doesn't sleep well - we will work on routine to make sure his sleep is better.
In general my observation is that when you go towards IS skills - the more real paterns you see re his sleep needs. To give you an example if you have a OT or UT child he might go to sleep easily if you rock him or stroke him and also he will resettle nicely. When he is a independent sleeper but have problems with going to sleep, it usually means and gives you a clue that there is something wrong with the routine.

Still, wait couple days and let see if there are any improvements. It should be 1-3 good days and than a kind of regression which usually happens. But let's wait and see what will come.

Keeping fingers crossed and don't be so discouraged. Sleep of our children is a tough game and he will be playing it for years:).

[Palmira78]

Thanks a lot Martini for your support and wise advice. Thanks for being straight with your words.
It is hard to break some habits and we tend to fool ourselves. My DS1 was really easy so I did not face any of my current challenges with DS2. I promise to be patient and hope that we all get better nights soon.

[Palmira78]

Hey! Back here again... just to share our latest nights and also with some questions...
Since we have ensured that our DS falls asleep by himself in the crib fully awake, we have experienced some improvements. The first days as I have mentioned, DS resisted the new routine and cried when we left him in the crib. The last 2 nights he has settled himself quite easily. He sat several times but laid himself down, and in less than 3 minutes he was sleeping.  Since the truly independent falling asleep experience, we have had a massive reduction in NWs. Longer stretches of continues sleeping without our intervention (thanks Martini for that).
Only 1 per night... however this one has taken his father and myself 1,5 hours or 2 hours. We give each other turns because it is exhausting. Furthermore, I am afraid that in this single but long NW we are introducing again new bad habits :-((. AGAIN. The only way he settles back during the long NW is in our arms holding him and placing him back fully asleep in the crib.
Of course we have tried for 1 full hour calming him without taking from the crib. He gets really angry and his screams escalate. Even if I touch him he rejects my hand and gets very mad. We tried PU/PD without results, he is fighting us arching his back. It seems that once he gets frustrated because he cannot fall asleep he just cannot stop crying unless we take him out off the room and break his circle of madness. Then we take him out, he stops crying and he falls asleep in our arms. If we try to place him back half asleep in the crib the screams start again. I am tempted to get some ear plugs and stay sat next to the crib just with verbal comforting no matter if it takes 2, 3, or any hours... ..... but wouldn't it be leave him CIO somehow? I am confused.

Last night when he awoke he was calling me, I found him sat down but not screaming. He was clapping his hands, trying to touch my face, standing, in a playful mood.... He tried to put himself back to sleep several times, but with each attempt he was getting more and more frustrated. Then he started to get really mad and after 30 minutes screaming like if I was killing him I called his father since I was desperate. He was creaming even in my arms! His father took him to the sitting room, sat with him in a chair. He read his favorite book and DS fall asleep in his arms in about 5 minutes. Again we know that this is not the way to proceed but we do not know what to do.

I forgot to mention that DS is having extremely early breakfast/nursing between 5:00 - 6:00 (I do not count this as NW). I have experienced that without this food moment then he cannot go back to sleep. After the breakfast he stays awake, then I place him in the crib and he self settles. In 5 minutes resumes sleeping until 7:15. From breakfast to lunch time at 11:30 he goes without additional food but he does not eat if he is offered some!!! I do not want to go to the night food road anymore... but I wonder if he wouldn't settle better in the long NW if I gave DS a bottle, for example. He is almost one year old, by the way.

Any comments or good wishes will be appreciated.

[Martini~]

I am so happy that you have seen improvements in his night sleep and the number of NW. And that he settles easily. So now this NW. Seems to be UT to me, but! let's see first how your routine looks like. Can you post your detailed routine? Sleep, food (solids and milk)?  We will check if there is anything we can tweak.

[Palmira78]

Indeed he settles easily for bed time, and we are so happy about that. I have to say that I stay sat next to his crib until he totally falls asleep. Should I try already leaving the room once I see him looking for the right position in the crib?
Here goes my DS routine (from Monday to Friday he goes to Day care from 8.15 - 15:15, but we keep the routine in the weekends) The main nap is always at a set time by the Day care for all the children from 13:00-15:00. They put the blinds down and keep the place "quiet".

E. Breakfast - only nursing 6.00 (for 20 minutes non stop)
WU 7:15
S 10:00-10:30 It is kind of a cat nap. They put him to sleep following his cues. Some days he does not sleep it.
E 11:30 vegetables + meat or fish puree. Fruits pure. Always eats very well
S 13:00 - 14:30
E 15:30 Nurse for 20 minutes. Fruits puree
E 18:45 vegetables + meat or fish puree. Yogurt
19:00 Nurse
19:25 bath
19:35 wind down = pajamas, music, prayer
19:40 placed in the crib
S19:45 Asleep
We are introducing small pieces of fruit, fish, bread, but it is currently more as an experience than a proper meal.

Anything that stands out regarding the routine?

[Palmira78]

The last 2 nights we have gone worse... instead of 1 long NW that lasts 2 hours, we are having also wake ups every hour or every 2 hours. Last night for example at 23.00, 2:00, 4:00, 5:00 (was awake until 6:40). I woke him anyway at 7:30 to take him to day care.
I am really fed up and desperate since every time that I see some improvements they do not last.... like when I stopped with the night feeds, when I removed the pacifier, or recently when we started putting our DS totally awake in the crib and he fell asleep independently. But any improvements are really short lived and we continue with the same nightmare.
When DS woke up last night, the first 3 times, I only had to take his hand and then he calmed and resumed sleeping. However at 5 he was sat down and was angry... and it was impossible to make him sleep. I was next to him by his crib trying with PU/PD, and at 6 I nursed him since I thought he might be hungry (I consider this his breakfast) but afterwards he was still fully awake and getting every time more angry. At 6:30 I called DH and he managed to make him sleep holding him in his arms.
I am currently without any hope :-(

[Palmira78]

Now that my DS always is falling asleep at BT and at naps by his own in the crib, my DH and I have realized that he is very capable of going back to sleep without introducing accidental parenting. We have taken the decision of seriously implementing PU/PD and never again allow him to fall asleep whilst holding, walking...etc.
As I previously mentioned, on the long NWs due to desperation from our side, we had to hold him and/or walk him, since he was very angry and mad. Last night we have not done that. We stayed and comfort DS with our voice and some strokes (ear plugs on). We realized that with the accidental parenting we were deploying a new habit/prop that did not encourage DS to fall back to sleep on his own. Let's see if soon we start getting less and shorter NWs...

[Martini~]

Oh Honey Please hold on for a while. I am so sorry I am so slow with responding but my Adaś is ill and I am 37w pregnant and life is just too hectic last couple of days. I will post with some comments re food in next days ok? For now let's see if your attempts will help!

[Palmira78]

Martini. Thanks so much, and do not worry. I understand since I have been there. I really hope that your boy gets better soon. Also my best wishes for your pregnancy. According to my experience the 2nd child delivery was easy peace :-)  And breastfeeding (if you want to) is easier too. Let me know if I can be any help.
 
Just a good update for last night. My DS2 slept from 7:45pm to 5:00am non-stop. Woho! At 5 I re-settle him in 15 minutes just holding his hand, and at 5:45 we woke up again and he did not return to sleep until I gave him breakfast at 6:30. For the last 2 days we have given him 240ml of formula that he drunk in 5 minutes (instead of the 20minutes+ with breast feeding). Then he continued sleeping until 7:30. We have decided to switch breakfast to formula so I can get a better life. Also, we have agreed not to feed him before 6:30.  It is confusing to know if eating is a habit or is a need... At this point in time (almost 1 yo) we cannot tell if our DS crying is hunger or whatever... Lets hope that we keep getting more nights with long sleep stretches :-)

[Palmira78]

Hi there! We have improved in terms of independent sleeping. Whilst going to sleep for BT and naps was always quite easy, without the pacifier and without any other props it works fine as well. The last prop I guess is my presence in the room. Currently when DS wakes up we can calm him just with our voice or touching his hand a little. The issue still is that he continues waking so often, every 2 hours or even less. Then around 5 in the morning it is difficult for him to continue sleeping and he cries a lot since he gets nervous. At that point we calm him down with music, in our arms, and when he stops crying and relaxes, before he falls asleep, we place him in the crib (a number of times) until he settles and continues sleeping.
The last 4 nights have been terrible, because of one new teeth and the vaccinations side effects (so many more teeth yet to come :-(((. Yesterday I slept in the same room, by the crib, with a futon mattress in order to get at least some rest.

I wonder when we will start getting some positive results from the more independent sleep. Any suggestions would be very welcomed. Perhaps I should start posting in the Toddlers board since DS first birthday took place a few days ago...

[Martini~]

Have you considered him being hungry? Am I right that he has only 2 solid meals and 3x nurse?
Has he any solid breakfast? Has he any dinner followed by nursing?

[Palmira78]

There is always a doubt about it, if he will be hungry... The thing is that once he eats his breakfast he does not fall asleep immediately, it takes him some time, and occasionally he gets up for the day, so not sure. Furthermore he is really large (percentile 95) and heavy (percentile 80) so he is getting enough calories according to his pediatrician, not getting any slimmer ;-)
Currently he eats 3 solid meals, lunch, afternoon tea and dinner. I have tried to feed him more before taking him to Day care, but it is impossible. He is a spirited baby so he never eats more than what he wants, he gets mad if you insist in :-) quite a temper! Regarding nursing I only do it before afternoon tea, and after dinner. For breakfast I have substituted it by a bottle (so I can delegate in DH). Any suggestion regarding when/how I could give DS more food to prevent night hunger (in case there is any)? If improving my cooking can improve my nights, I promise that I can be a Master chef 

[Martini~]

So my favourite plan for eating over 1 is:
7/8am breakfast with a glass of milk
9:30/10am snack/morning tea around 50-100g
12:00/12:30 lunch 200-250g: meat + veggie
2:30/3:00pm snack - around 50-100g
5/5:30pm dinner: carbs here - as they are full of calories for night
7pm nurse or bottle

The thing with big babies is that they usually need a lot of calories as they need energy!

Quite important is to offer nursing a good while after dinner so he can have a bigger portion. Possible and achievable for you? It's not about being a masterchef:D.

[Palmira78]

Thanks for the suggestions. What carbs do you give for dinner?

By the way, the last 2 nights we have only had 1 NW at 5 or 5:30. This is amazing. We do not want to get too excited since tonight we may have a bad night again.. Nevertheless really happy. We did not include any changes food wise or timing yet.  The only thing that we can think of is that the radiator had some small light on the display and we have blocked this light so it is black pitch. Who knows?
Let's see and fingers crossed.

[Martini~]

It can be also just patience and consequence. Sometimes you see the final results just after 10-14 days from the start is sleep training. In terms of food, I usually went for potate, pasta, rice or some no gluten or no wheat cereal like corn or rice, so its nutritious but light and easy to digest before BT. It would be also wise to separate this last BF from dinner so he takes a bigger nursing portion and can last till morning.

[Martini~]

Ahhh and I would push that second nap till 1:30 maybe so he sleeps a tad longer and have short A till BT as 2:30-7:30 or later can be too much for him.

[Palmira78]

Thanks for the excellent advice and suggestions. I will try to put as much as possible into practice.  The only problem I see regarding nap time and lunch time is that both take place in the kindergarten and they have standard times for that for everyone. So lunch is at 11:30 and nap from 1 to 3 (they put the blinds down and everything is quiet).
I have missed to mention that for the last 2 days my DS only slept 1 nap (2 hours) so perhaps too much sleep during the day had an influence.
Anyway, lets see if we get on with the trend of only 1 NW and I would be extremely satisfied :-)

[Palmira78]

Just an update. The last 2 nights have been excellent. We cannot believe it. It is already 4 nights in a row with just the breakfast NW that everyday takes place a little bit later. Last night DS slept from 8 to 6:35 non stop then he had his milk and continue sleeping till 8:00. We have no changed anything else but made the room perfectly dark and of course the other things leading to independent sleeping. Finally we are sleeping!!! Fingers crossed let's hope that this continues.