8 months need a restart on sleep training :(

[LauraJame]

Hello,

I started a sleep training with PU/PD at 4 months (15 weeks - 3 hours E.A.S plan to self sleep?)
Scottishmummy help me so much and I could improve and teach my son PU/PD.  He never mastered that but it impoved a lot!

The problems began when I had to go back to work at 5 months.  My son is spending the day with my mother and she messed with his sleep training. I kept doing PU/PD at night but he started to reject that. I think he started to think "Why are you doing that? My grandma hold me to fall sleep". And so I had to stop PU/PD as well...

I tried some help in night waking forum : 7 month old waking 10x a night, but was clear that the main problem continues to be sleep training.

So here I am again.
I will spend 2 month with my son starting next month! So I would like to restart the process and really teach him this time.

ACTUAL scenario:
- 8 month old (will be 9 when I start to sleep train)
- 2 naps (1.5 each or 1hrs first and 2hrs second. He wakes at ~35min and I "resettle" him)
- 3 ~ 3.15hr "A" time
- Only sleeps with "holding and walking" prop and wakes every hour at night. If I wait to "resettle" him, he crys A LOT, A LOT, so lound. Sometimes I am keeping him at bed with me because every time I put back on cot he wakes and cries.
- This week I tried PU/PD again twice. It was a nightmare. Way way worst than the first time at 4 months. He started crying and never stop. I keep the process for 1.5hr and he never stopped the cry. I had to quit!
- It is way harder to settle him now. If he is not in deep sleep he will wake up when put in cot and cry cry cry no stop.
- Dinner is at 7. BT at 8:30, Breasfeeding at 12:00 and 5:00. Wake time at 7:30.
- He is teething, tried some paracetamol at night and no improvements.

So after all that , what you think? Should I restart training with PU/PD even if he now dont stop crying ? Or should I try something else at 9 month?

Thanks

[Lindsay27]

Hi hun!  Sorry everything is so rough right now, big hugs!! I'm sure you're exhausted.

If you don't think PU/PD is working (for either of you), then let's figure out a new plan I've personally never done PU/PD as my DS was spirited and I knew it would just wind him up more, and DD just never needed it.  Does LO sleep in your room, or in his own room/own crib/cot?  This is going to take some time, and it is going to be exhausting, and you will likely need help from DH/DP in the night to get through, so I would pick a period of time where you know you will be able to rest some the next day.

If you are holding/rocking/walking LO to sleep, continue to do that until he is very drowsy/almost asleep, then place him in the cot with your arms still around him, or through the bars so you can hold him.  Not going to lie, this is going to wreck your back but it is only temporary   Continue to hold him in the cot until his breathing slows and he is asleep, you may need to pat, sing, gently rock with your hands etc. at first to help soothe him.  If he cries try to resettle him with your hands and voice in the cot.  If the crying escalates then repeat the process, pick up and hold/rock/walk until almost asleep and then place in the cot and hold him, and continue to repeat.  There will be crying, so you need to be prepared for that.  It is sort of like PU/PD but it's a little less...aggressive I guess you can say.  It may take several nights (and several times a night) before you are able to successfully transfer him to the cot while still awake with minimal crying.

The gentle removal process happens in stages, so I've linked below the whole process.  I would take the time to read through before you start so you can get a good idea of what you are aiming for.  As I said, this isn't going to happen overnight, but the idea is that he needs to be settled in the crib, which can happen gently and over time so it is not such a shock to him.

HELP YOUR BABY TO FALL BACK TO SLEEP ON HER OWN

[LauraJame]

Hi! Thanks for the reply!

He is sleeping in my room on the crib.
I know it will be exhausting and hard. But I need to teach him or my body will crash

I think my son is spirited as well. I read some descriptions about that but I am not sure. Should I do something different about that?

I will try the "gentle removal process" that you suggest me.
Some questions :
1 - Should I do that on naps as well on the beggining?
2 - "very drowsy/almost asleep" is when he is with his eyes closed but doing some noises?
3 - With PU/PD he starts to cry as soon as I start to get him down to the crib. What I should do in that case?

Thanks so much ! Its good to know that there are people like you that spend some time to help other people!

[Lindsay27]

I would probably do both naps and nights, consistency is the key so I think if you are doing one thing for naps and another thing for nights that would probably be confusing.  I would say that very drowsy/almost asleep can be either when the eyes just close or when they do that eyes open/close/open/close thing.  If he starts to cry when you get him down to the crib I would first try to comfort him by holding him in the crib, you'd have to be kinda hunched over or get your arms through the rails, and if he gets hysterical then start the process over.  Going to see if I can get some extra eyes on this for you for additional help

[LauraJame]

Thanks for your support ! Lifesaver s2

So I think should wait to start the training in next month when I will stay 2 month with him no-stop.

Just an update, I have 4 days in a roll with a "perfect E.A.S.Y" routine, like that:

Wake : 7:00
S: 10:15 (1h30m)
A: 11:45
S: 3:00 (2h)
A: 5:00
Night sleep: 8:00

This did not stop him from waking up every hour at night and in naps.
Sometimes after he wakes I keep him sleeping in my bed on my arm or above my body, and he wakes a lot less often. Is it okay to do that or I am creating another future problem?

Thanks

[Lindsay27]

Sometimes after he wakes I keep him sleeping in my bed on my arm or above my body, and he wakes a lot less often.

I mean I guess it is something that is up to you...co-sleeping is a personal preference, many people do it (though not really a BW "method"), and it works for them and their families.  If you want true independent sleep - that is that he falls asleep on his own, in his own room and crib - then yes, this is probably creating a prop.  If you are going to truly attack sleep training in a month you just have to be prepared that this is something that will have to be weaned at the time.  But like I said, if it is working for you you are welcome to do it, as long as you understand it is something that you'll have to break later, ya know?

The other thing I forgot to ask - is there any discomfort, silent reflux or anything like that?  I ask because waking hourly is pretty abnormal unless there is something else going on.

[LauraJame]

The other thing I forgot to ask - is there any discomfort, silent reflux or anything like that?  I ask because waking hourly is pretty abnormal unless there is something else going on.

Since I read in other post about a possible discomfort I thought that could be teething (he is now with 4 teeth). I gave him some tylenol but no changes at all.
So I started to think about silent reflux. Read lots of information about that, but most symptoms dont match.

What else could it be? His pediatrician said he is fine.

I keep observing him on monitor. He has a very active sleep during "sleep cycle transition" (kicking and turning around, usually at 40~45min). When that happens he wakes, but if I hold his leegs during this transition he usually keep sleeping. I dont know if that information can help us to find any "cause/solution".

Thanks

[Lindsay27]

Sorry hun, my family was hit with the flu this week so I haven't been around much.  When he is that active during the sleep transitions is that for naps or for night sleep?  One this that I am noticing is in the sample routine you posted he is getting a 1.5hr nap in the morning and a 2hr nap in the afternoon - is that typical?  If so that is 3.5hrs of day sleep which could be a bit on he high side and he could be UT for night sleep.

[ireneasheard]

My son is 8 months old - sounds like we are at the same age - and it is common for waking to start at this age (8-10 months) due to separation anxiety. I feel your pain, it is exhausting. We don't have waking every hour here but we have had some early morning wake ups in the last week that are contributing to my wondering whether my son is looking at dropping down to 1 sleep for the day. He has always been low sleep needs and this leap seems to need a lot more support. (If you follow the Wonder Weeks this would be leap 6!). Developmental leaps always cause issues with sleep. Is he attempting to crawl / pull up or have you noticed any other skills that he might be trying to develop?

About all I can suggest from what has been suggested below is to persist. My son was not as resistant as your babe seems to be to PU/PD but PU/PD does work. I can get my son to go to sleep in his cot if I have my hand on his chest but it has been after I did a lot of work with him on PU/PD to begin with and we haven't been interrupted as you have been with work etc.

[LauraJame]

Hello!

When he is that active during the sleep transitions is that for naps or for night sleep? 

Naps and night sleep !

One this that I am noticing is in the sample routine you posted he is getting a 1.5hr nap in the morning and a 2hr nap in the afternoon - is that typical?

The total usually stays at 3hours max . Yesterday was 1hr45 and 1hr20.

Some random questions :
- He usually stay waked beetween 3.5 and 4 hours before night sleep. Is that a problem?

- When I start night sleep process (walking holding him) he start to rub his face on my shoulder and keep doing that for about 5 min before asleep. He also try to climb on my body... He do that sometimes when he wake at night as well... Is that means something?

- I never tried pacifier with him. Should I try now ? 

Thanks for the help!