6 months in, night sleep is dreadful, I desperately need help

[Clairehv]

Hi

DD2 is 6 months and 2 weeks and our nights have been getting progressively worse for the last two months. I am now sometimes only getting 2 hours sleep a night and I am almost at breaking point, DH sleeps in the spare room, I am permanently in a bad mood and I have no energy or interest in entertaining DD1 or DD2. I am absolutely exhausted.

I have tried since day 1 almost to implement EASY and we followed it with DD1 and her naps became well established and by 16 weeks was sleeping through with us then having to reintroduce 1 nightfeed at 6-8 months to get us through the weaning stage.
I don't know how much background to give. Initially Ayda would only sleep upright in sling, then we started slepping her on her tummy just to get some rest.
At 4 months she was sleeping on her back again, having 1 night bottle and maybe 1 or two dummy resettles, since then her nights have got worse and worse

DD2 really struggles to nap for longer than 40 minutes, you can set a clock by her, I can sometimes quickly resettle and stretch her out, but she hasn't outgrown the sleep cycle wake yet.

At 5 weeks we introduced a dummy, I know feel that it is a complete crutch.
Would someone be happy to look at our typical ( I will pick a bad day) EASY and night and also I would really welcome advise on getting rid of the dummy- do I go cold turkey, will it be hideous for a couple of nights and then could things improve.

So
Friday night/ Into saturday morning:-

Bedtime milk- 6.10pm 7oz
Asleep after settling in cot and many dummy resttles by 6.50pm
dummy replug at 8.30pm, 11pm
2.30am 6oz bottle

wake ups at 4am, 5am, 6am then asleep on me 6.15-7am

Saturday
WU 7am
E 7.20:- 4oz
8am porridge and pear purree
S 9.05-10.45am ( with a 40 minute resettle- cuddle with dummy in then back into cot)
E 11am puree + 6oz bottle
S 1pm-1.40pm
E 2.30pm 7oz
S 3.30-4.10pm
E 5pm puree
E 6.10pm
S 7pm
Dummy @ 8.30/10pm
12.30am 6oz bottle
2.30am 6oz bottle ( had tried to settle without)
Dummy at 4am/5am/6am

Sunday
WU 6.40am
E 7.20am 4oz
E 8am puree
S 8.50am-10.10 with a 40 min resettle
E 11am puree
6 oz bottle
S 12.30-2pm ( 40 min dummy resettle
E 2.45 6oz bottle
S 4.15-5pm
E 5.15 puree
E 6.30pm 5oz bottle
S 7pm
dummy @ 8.30pm/9.30pm
2am tried to settle
2.30 3oz bottle ( wouldn't take more)
awake until 3.30am, fell asleep on me eventually
woke at 4.30/5am -
S 6am-6.40 in arms

Our nights have been worse than those as well.

She struggles to do more than 2 hours A time, I am trying to push to 2 hr 15 but she complains from around 1hr45,

Feel I need to lose the dummy as I just don't think she has learnt to self settle, I never used one with DD1 so am at a loss. However she clearly wants to suck, if she loses the dummy she tries to shove her whole comfort blanket in her mouth.

So probably two different questions: will her S time for naps just improve. How long to try and resettle for the afternoon nap. I tried for 50 minutes yesterday and she cried for 30 of those.

Has anyone else ditched the dummy at 6 months. Do I just start at bedtime? can I ditch for nighttime and keep for naps?

Any help appreciated, I am living in a delirious fog.
x

[jessmum46]

Hugs, you must be totally and utterly exhausted  

Can I check - is there any chance she could have reflux?  She is waking a lot and often that can be linked with discomfort....

If you are sure that's not an issue then I think the place I would start is here:

She struggles to do more than 2 hours A time, I am trying to push to 2 hr 15 but she complains from around 1hr45,

These are super-short A times for a 6.5mo, many/most will be up around 2h45-3h and going through/gone through the 3-2 nap transition.  I know it's hard with bad nights because she will be tired but it's a vicious cycle - if she's not getting enough A time, she won't sleep soundly/well, and will then be tired and want short A times....I would make a concerted effort to push her A times up quite significantly.  If she can do 2h now, do not allow less than 2h15 for the next 3-4 days.  Hold her, carry her, distract her, do a long winddown, whatever - but get the A times longer.  And then when you can get her to 2h15, jump to 2h30 and again hold for 3-4 days.  I would do that aiming for the 3h mark and 3-2 over the next fortnight - by then she will be 7 months and that's far more of an appropriate awake time for her.  I do think that if she is otherwise well that should help your nights a lot.

It may also help with nap resettles - UT naps (even if overall she is tired) are almost impossible to settle...

Dummy-wise I'd probably hang in there just for now - two reasons: one I think the routine needs sorting, and that may solve many of the wakings without the trauma of dummy removal.  And second, she's nearly the age where she can replug on her own and you may just want to work on teaching her that so the dummy can be a comfort item she can use herself.

What do you think?

[Clairehv]

Hi
thank you so much for the prompt response. I tried to respond last night but our WiFi failed.

With regards to our daytime routine, I will try and push her.
I have done so today although she complains but am sure will get there.
I think we are some way from the 3-2 transition until I can get nap 2 later and longer.

She was on medication for silent reflux - ranitidine, I weaned off a couple of weeks ago and don't really see that there has been any difference or decline.
Since she began to roll one way two weeks ago she will not settle on her back and sleeps on her tummy, although thrashes about like a seal when trying to settle to sleep.
I could restart the ranitidine to see if it helps.
I fee like she hasn't found how she likes to sleep yet and cannot self soothe to sleep.

Last night
Bed time : struggled to settle until 7.40pm
Dummy 945pm
2am 7oz bottle. Took a while to settle
S3-4am, dummy @ 4am, 5am then 6am. Calm in arms but don't think slept.

Today Wednesday
WU 6am
E : 7.15 3oz (just not interested)
Refused solids.
Whingy from 7.50am
S 8.30, resettle at 9am- 9.40 - I woke as had to go to DD1 nativity.
E 11am 5oz
Refused solids
S 12 15pm (pushed out A time) -1.50pm
E 3pm 5oz
S 4pm-4.40
E 5pm puree
Bath @6pm
E 6.20 8oz
S a few resettle needed asleep by 7.10
Dummy @ 8.20pm

It 's the constant waking through the early hours which are killing me.

Will keep working on the day routine as much as possible x

[jessmum46]

See how you go for a few days with some longer A times, and then if you post here we can have a look and see what's been happening.  Nice second nap on Wednesday

[MrsTigs]

Hi Clairehv *waves*

Saw your post and wondered if I'd written it!! So similar to us - our daughter is also 6m+2w old and has basically gone from sleeping 10/11 hours plus decent naps to waking every hour or so at night and catnapping through the day    For us it's being going on since 3.5/4months so at first I put it down to the 4 month regression/wonder week (see my thread) but it's remained wonky ever since 

I also have an older child (3yr old son) and am finding it so hard to give him any time or energy - I'm just so exhausted! Like you, we are wondering if the NW are caused by over reliance on the dummy, but aren't sure where to go from here! My son never took to a dummy (liked holding/patting instead) but my daughter is a very 'sucky' baby so we introduced one early  It proved a very easy way to settle her for naps, which is so useful with an older child, but obviously it's now biting us back re the NW 

Anyway, I just wanted to offer some solidarity! Have things improved for you at all since your last post? I feel like I'm losing my mind right now and just want to run away and hide in a dark room for a month or 50 

Tigs xx

[Clairehv]

Hi Tigs

In essence no improvement, the reason I haven't responded with any updates is Friday and Saturday night's were so bad I have been feeling almost delirious and haven't really had the energy to write out my EASY.

Sunday I almost decided to do cold turkey on the dummy but then dd1 decided that she would play silly buggers at bedtime as well so I didn't have the resolve to see it through.

Hope to post tomorrow the past few days and hopefully get someone's expert advice. Still hoping for a Christmas miracle

Hope you have a more restful night x

[Lindsay27]

Have you had any success extending A times Claire?  Do you have any help in the night hun?  I know even if DH can help it is still exhausting, but it might at least give you a bit of a break.  I'm sorry things have been so awful, hang in there.

[MrsTigs]

Hi Claire,

Sorry to hear things haven't improved for you    And I know exactly what you mean about feeling delirious.... I can't think straight, keep forgetting things and fly off the handle at the slightest thing - mostly at poor Mr 3 who is really suffering from my lack of energy    He's really wanting/needing more attention from me and has been acting up lots this past week..... which normally I can handle, but it's nigh on impossible on no sleep! (And Christmas induced excitement at nursery etc doesn't help either!  )

I've come close to going cold turkey on the dummy too, but, as you say, there is always something that stops me..... DS playing up, hubby being out for the evening, feeling under the weather etc. I'm too tired to contemplate the night without it, even though I suspect it might be contributing to our problems! Such a vicious circle 

We're hoping for a Christmas miracle too! I'm ramping up on the weaning front in case it's hunger-related (even though we do feed her in the night already if she clearly wants it) and we're planning on moving her to her cot quite soon in case she just wants to stretch out/ roll over at night. I've also given teething gel tonight as she was a bit screechy and shoving everything in her mouth..... but it's really been going on too long for just teething I think!

She took 4 naps of under 20mins today, so we'll see what night we are in for.....    Sleepy dust to you too!

Tigs (aka Claire too!) xx

[Clairehv]

Hi
thanks for bearing with me. Gosh having two children is hard!! Who gets a minute to do anything??

So we have had success at extending her A times to 2.5 hours, she handles it although does complain a bit, however although she settles,easily we still get the 40 min early wu. Typically though I can resettle her more quickly and easily.

Nights are still not fun but somewhat better.
Typically asleep by 7ish. Dummy resettle at 9.pm, 10.30pm, earlier in the week a night feed at 12 30am then a resettle or two from 4am..

My log is downstairs and I am in bed so will post the day routine.

I do think the dummy loss is the cause of several of the NWs. Now she rolls and sleeps on her tummy she tends to end up on top of the dummy so I don't know how she will be able to get in her mouth again or even if one of these dummy bunny soft comforters would help?

Who's ready for Christmas?
I hAve been on a present wrapping marathon but have completely forgotten to get my food order sorted and all the home delivery slots are fully booked, aerrfghh x x

[creations]

Hi there - and hugs!

It looks like you are ready for another A increase now. It's been around 2 wks since you began the push from 2hrs and you've now reached 2hr 30. Another push right away to 2hr 45, hold 3 days and push again to 3hrs.  She might complain about the slightly longer A time and she might have a couple of shorter OT naps but they ought to be easier to resettle and she'll adapt. Those 40 mins naps where you can resettle should be helped by the longer A time and the quicker you can move on with settling the day routine on a decent A time the quicker the nights should improve.

[Clairehv]

Hi,

So what would a good EASY look like for a 7 month old? I will check the page though as I have it saved.

A few examples from the past week

Monday
WU: 6.20am
E (typically not interested)
7 30 2oz only
7.45 baby porridge
S 9.05-10.15 in pram, (woke a 40 mins but closed eyes straight away)
E puree pouch 11am
11.30 2oz milk
S 12.30-2.40pm (settled instantly at 12.30, managed to resettle at 1.10pm
E 3.15pm 5oz
S 5.30-6pm
E pouch
7.25 5oz milk
S 7.40pm- 11.15pm :really crying
11.30pm 6oz bottle
Resettle at 2.30am, 3.45am really crying tried leaving and in out resettle until 4.40am, then offered bottle. Took 90ml
S 5.30am-7am

Tuesday
WU 7an
E 7.20am 60ml
8am porridge
S 9-9.30 in car en route to swimming
E 11am
S 1pm (very OT) -1.40pm
E 2.40pm 4oz
S 3.50-5pm
6.30 5oz
S 7pm, several dummy resettle before 12pm
12.30am 6oz
WU 2am, 3.30,5am,6am, 6.40

Wednesday
WU 6.40
E 7 3oz
Porridge

S 9.10-10.30
E 11.15

S1pm-2.45pm in cot straight through

S 5-5.30pm

S 7.45pm-
Dummy 10.30pm
12.30am 6oz
Dummy at 4am
WU 6.20am

Saturday
WU 7.15am

S 9.30-9.40 in car, woke on stopping

S 11.30-12.10, couldn't resettle

S 2.30-3.30pm

S 6.30pm

Dummy at 9.25, 10.15
Bottle at 12.30
Dummy at 2.30,4am

Sunday
WU 6.20am

S 8.35am-10am

S 1 30pm- 2.30pm ( tired from 12.30 but didn't fall asleep in car - dirty nappy)

Bath 5.30pm
5.50pm 4oz
S 6.10-6.45
4oz
S 7.15-
Dummy at 10.30pm hard to settle
11.15 2oz
3 15am 6oz then didn't settle well
Dummy at 6am
WU 6.30

So I am trying hard to install a routine, even harder now weaning is involved.

We just do a varied bedtime depending how the day has gone.

The dummy is most of the reason for her not being able to self settle I think. Also though I really think the night bottle is putting her off her morning milk,, so then it becomes a cycle of her not eating enough milk in the day, any advice?

I will continue to tweak her days to longer A Times
Thank you.

[creations]

If you're trying to get onto a regular routine now then it might be an idea to clock watch for a bit and just stick to set times.
So something like:
WU 7
E 7.00 milk
E 8.00 solids breakfast
A 3hr
S 10 - 11.30
E 11.30 milk
E 12.30 solids lunch
A 3hr
S 2.30 - 4
E 4.00 milk
(E 4.30/5 solids dinner if you have introduce already, many are not on 3 meals until 8 months)
A 3hr
E 6.30 BT milk
BT 7
NF at a NW somewhere between 10-11pm
If there is need for a second NF it would be around 2-3am which leaves 4hrs before WU milk so she should not be too full on night milk for the WU feed.

Puree pouches from the shops can be quite big. Portion sizes are really quite small for a lot of LOs this age so just be aware that if she fills on puree she might not have room for a good milk feed which then leaves her hungry. The milk gives her the nutrients and calories she needs better than the puree at this point so good milk feeds in the day and at BT are more important than large quantities of solids.
If she is frequently not interested in milk on WU you can try two things:
- wait 30 mins or so before offering milk (my DS couldn't eat on WU always needed 30 - 60 mins before he could eat and he didn't not have NFs past 10.30pm so it was not down to being full from night milk)
- gently wean the second NF by reducing by 1oz every few nights.