Author Topic: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?  (Read 16629 times)

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Offline Henrys_Dad

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About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« on: December 08, 2016, 19:21:19 pm »
Hello, my first post and hope some people have some tips and tricks for sleep, precocious lovely sleep! :)

Henry our first child will be 9months on the 21st of December and we're keen to try and crack his sleeping.

A few background bits..
  • Breast Fed.
  • On 'solids' for 3 meals of the day.
  • Try to get him having two 1hr/30min naps
  • Started crawling today :)
  • Breast fed on average every 3hrs throughout the night, we are extending this though.

He used to be kind of fed to sleep but we've stopped that but he is still reliant on us bopping/rocking him to sleep, thats the issue.

His daytime naps are us holding him though, terrible in his cot during the day, we do this as we worry he won't get any sleep during the day if we try and put him in his cot as it would be 10/20mins altogether.

A general routine for us in an evening will be.
  • Bath, massage, read and feed from 6/6.30pm
  • Rocked sung to, with him grumbling and sometimes getting mad until he's a sleep
  • Wait a further 5 mins then put him in his cot, he usually rolls on to his side and carries on sleeping.
  • Any time from 30 mins to 1hr 30mins he will wake, roll on to his other side back again, sometimes sleep sometimes wake and rub his eyes.
  • If he wakes we go in and pick him up rock until a sleep for 3/5 mins, then repeat the above.

This waking routine essentially happens throughout the night with varying lengths of time between wakes, sometimes him rolling over and going back to sleep sometimes not.

When he does wake he gets very mad, arching back kicking legs rubbing eyes etc. He will do this if we put him down too soon from rocking as well.

I'm confused though as the PU/PD 'rules' say that 8months on

Quote (selected)
At this age you really don’t do any pick up as babies 8 months and up tend to soothe faster in the crib. 

If we do that he will progressively get madder and madder, so should we pick him up until he stops then straight back down etc or not?

Or is the PU/PD method wrong for Henry, as he does kind of put himself back to sleep, its just sometimes/most times he doesn't.

Thank you for reading and any help :)
« Last Edit: December 08, 2016, 19:40:42 pm by Henrys_Dad »

Offline Lindsay27

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2016, 00:25:56 am »
I don't have any personal experience with PU/PD so I am just going to bump this for you.  In the meantime, would you mind jotting down your general EASY for us so we can look at your routine to see if anything stands out.  PU/PD will only be effective if there are no routine issues (e.g. an overtired or undertired LO).



Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2016, 10:05:50 am »
Thank you Lindsay, by Easy i assume you mean our daily routine?

Our basic routine is as follows, these obviously vary a little bit with time of if we go anywhere but usually what happens.

General rule about naps during the day, we do these by popping/rocking him and then holding whilst he sleeps. He has never gone down great in his cot during the day and we were worried he wasn’t getting enough sleep during the day, so just wanted him to get some. We’re aware this is not great long term, but one book we read said just getting a nap however, possible during the day was essential so they are not over tired?

Morning
  • 6am wake up, breast feed if he’s not had one recently in the night.
  • Little play, interaction for an hour then some porridge for breakfast.
  • 8am ( or couple of hrs after he has woken up ) a nap on us, from anything 1hr 30min to just 30min, never really longer than that.
  • Rest of morning, pay interaction perhaps some readying, jumper etc, usually  a breast feed around this time as well
  • 12ish some lunch, various things we make him ’solids', blended etc and some formula drink as well.
Afternoon
  • Further play and interaction after lunch
  • 2pm or when he’s getting tired another sleep, again on us again a similar time to above if we get him to.
  • Wake and further bits with us, reading play and another breast feed until...
  • 5pm meal we’ve made him ’solids’, with formula drink as well
Evening
  • 6pm bath time, which he seems to enjoys never kicks off
  • 6.10pm/6.30pm massage and dressing after bath (doesn’t like being dressed after the bath) reading and feed.
  • He used to sometimes get very sleepy from the feed and fall asleep, now he is rarely asleep by this point. We’ve all tried not to feed him to sleep
  • 6.30pm bopping/rocking until he’s asleep and then in his cot. Hell almost always fight this, arch back in our arms getting mad but we gently sing to him and remind calm until he’s asleep.
Night
  • When we put him down almost always goes on his side and stays asleep
  • he sometimes stirs, swaps sides and goes back to sleep, but if he doesn’t get comfortable it seems then he will begin rubbing his eyes and start crying, kicking legs, we go in and pick up bop/rock etc until asleep
  • Times vary, 30mins of sleep up to 2hrs of sleep, past 12 he sometimes does 3hrs and once 4hrs (fluke) but always random and always after he cannot put himself back to sleep but sometimes he does!

Hopefully thats enough detail to go on for someone to advise whether its worth us trying PU/PD?

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2016, 13:40:23 pm »
Hi there and welcome to BW forums :)
Lovely to have a Daddy here.

I think the question of PUPD being suitable or not is really something you and your DW need to decide.  I would suggest you consider what your goal really is and if you are prepared to really commit to sleep training. If you are ready to commit to sleep training decide together how you want to go about it, and agree on it, you need to be working together on this so the message to LO is absolutely clear.

For the purposes of expanding a little on your options I am going to assume your end goal is for LO to have all sleeps in his cot, not in arms, for all naps and night sleep.  If this is not your goal you will ned to let us know what your goal is so we can support you as well as possible and adapt our suggestions.

PUPD is not a no-cry solution.
With a good routine it WILL work and you will sleep train your baby to sleep in the cot and with your support he will learn to self settle. This means he will learn how to go into the cot awake and learn how to fall to sleep with no help. This also means when he reaches the end of a sleep cycle he will be able to transition to another cycle without your help - naps and night time.  For hunger in the night he will still need to be fed, breast fed babies do sometimes still have a night feed or two.
However, PUPD is hard work, lets be clear about it. Hard work. It can be tiring for parents and it needs parents to be ready for that and to commit. Your LO will almost certainly kick up a huge fuss, cry, scream and be very unhappy that you are changing the rules after 9 months of rocking and sleeping in arms - you have taught him that sleep is on you and now you are changing the rules. You cannot expect him to welcome the change.  There will likely be progress over a few days with the first couple being the hardest followed by a couple which are a bit easier and then there will likely be a regression where he tests you out to see if your really REALLY mean it - at which point you need to stand firm and tell him yes you really do mean it.
You or your DW will need to be with him throughout his frustrations, crying and struggles with the new rules. We do not agree with leaving babies to cry alone for any amount of time.  It might take a long time, and he might miss all or almost all of his nap because he is crying or fighting.
I'm letting you know it is hard and it might take half the day to get the first nap down and it is totally pointless and unfair on all of you to go through 30 or 60 mins or even longer of PUPD sleep training if you then give in and rock him to sleep - all the crying will have been for no reason and all it would do is reinforce his understanding that if he cries loud enough and long enough you will pick him up and let him sleep on you. It works against the goal.

I'm confused though as the PU/PD 'rules' say that 8months on

Quote (selected)

    At this age you really don’t do any pick up as babies 8 months and up tend to soothe faster in the crib.


If we do that he will progressively get madder and madder, so should we pick him up until he stops then straight back down etc or not?
Part of this is that babies are bigger and stronger and more difficult to pick up when they are fighting.  The idea with this age baby is to keep him in his cot however if he is really really upset then yes you can pick up, comfort and put back down.  Many people adapt the methods a little to suit their individual situation.  For example I did not sleep train my DS with the PUPD method but with an adapted shush/pat at a very young age.  When mine was 9 or 10 months or even older if he woke in the night for some reason I knew he did not re-settle by staying in the cot, he resettled very quickly if I picked up, cuddled and reassured, used my key phrase and put him back in bed - I might then just leave the room or if he needed some additional help I would leave a hand on him for a few mins.
So, yes, you can pick up to calm but you must keep your goal in mind, to put him down before he is asleep.

Or is the PU/PD method wrong for Henry, as he does kind of put himself back to sleep, its just sometimes/most times he doesn't.
From your descriptions I would say he is really struggling to get himself to sleep and to transition from one sleep cycle to another during naps and nights.  In my opinion sleep training would be of huge benefit to the whole family and would help your LO to sleep more peacefully and get a better sleep in the end.  As for if PUPD is right for him or not, I really feel it is more a question if it is right for YOU and your DW or not.

Another option which you may prefer (it is the one I would take but it is personal choice and I have not been in the position you are in) is to use an adapted shush/pat even though your LO is older.  This is a slower method, more gentle (on all of you), would take longer in terms of how many days, but is perhaps less fraught over all.  It is also a method you can return to time and again over the coming months/years when some comfort is needed due to teething or illness or a bout of separation anxiety.
In your case, if you chose this route, you would make progress in steps, like a gradual wean from the bopping and rocking and keep moving forward on your steps each day. for example:
- rock for wind down. If you usually rock firmly for 15 mins then only rock firmly for 5 mins, then reduce to gentle rock, then reduce to almost no movement
if he escalates in crying you step up the rocking but only briefly then reduce again.
- when calm but still awake and eyes nodding put down in cot, keep hands on and keep the very small rocking (almost like a rub) motion going until he is asleep.  If he fusses you increase the rocking motion in the cot by using a firmer hand on him to give a little movement, then reduce again.  If he full on creams his head off and rock/rub in the cot isn't helping you pick up and sooth in arms, the firmer rocking reduced down as quickly as possible to the gentler motion, when calm but awake into the cot, hands on continue the motion lightly - or firmly if needed - always as little as is needed.

So - the above might be the first step - it's a bit two steps forward, one back, increasing the help as needed and reducing the moment he is relaxing only ever offering what he needs and no more.  Throughout this time you can introduce a key phrase (rather than shush) such as "it's sleepy time" which you repeat like a mantra.  Later on in the stages this key phrase will be associated with comfort and support and you will be able to use verbal reassurance without necessarily picking him up...even from outside the door.
The next main step would be to reduce the rocking in the cot before he nods off (the description above is rocked in cot all the way to sleep) so that you have a motionless firm hand on him.
Then no hand on him but you are sitting by him at the ready if he needed it (I had my hand hovering 1cm above my DS).
And so on the steps go.  The key aspect in this method is that while it is okay to go a few steps forward and a few steps back within one sleep ultimately you keep moving forward on those steps. you do not wait for him to be 100% comfortable with any stage or you get "trapped" in that stage. You must also stay mindful and alert during the process so that you don't inadvertently get carried away with the rocking in the cot and reinforce this as a long term habit/prop.

Well, I gave you quite a lot to think about. Let us know what you think and where you want to go from here so we can support you.

In terms of your routine it looks like the first nap is coming too early for a long nap but some people find a short first A time followed by a short nap is preferable so that a longer A time and longer nap are achieved in the afternoon. You will have more success with the routine if you have consistency every day (at least whilst sleep training).  A routine might be:
WU 6am
A 3
S 9 - 10am
A 4
S 2 - 3.30pm
A 3-4hr
BT 6.30-7.30
routines do vary though. If you are more often wanting to be out in the afternoon at baby groups or such you might prefer to go for a long morning nap and a shorter afternoon nap.  It doesn't matter a huge deal unless you already know LO prefers one over the other or you have appointments/commitments which fit better one way.

Hope this helps


Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2016, 14:59:10 pm »
Thank you for taking the time to write that we really appreciate it.

Yes the final goal would be for our little man to sleep in his cot both day and night and able to self settle. We’re not expecting the world and of course getting up the odd time during the night is expected just not all the time it currently is.

We have no doubts about how hard it will be but are willing to try to help him and us, i suppose having something we’re actively working towards helps a little, that we might actually get there. Rather than what it currently is now, where we have nothing to work towards and for all we know it might always be like this.

Thank you for your suggestions, we need to decide which would be best know that both will take time.

One thing we both wonder, is there a cut off for trying. As in if we’ve been trying one method one night to get him off and it literally takes all night, should be just go back to normal so he gets ‘some’ sleep; or just keep trying and trying?

Should we be trying the methods for his daytime naps as well, or keep these as they are to ensure he gets some sleep? As in a worse case scenario, we try all night no sleep then carry on trying the next day as well, no sleep; surely thats counter productive with him getting over tired?
Another aspect of daytime naps, what if he goes down for one (our usual method) but only sleeps 20mins when really we wanted an hour, do we try with him getting mad to continue the nap or abandon?

Rocking in the cot, should this initially always involve touching him? We have always used a gentle motion of using the mattress up and down so he gentle moves up and down, would this be something we could continue to use as he’s used to it?

Thank you again for your response :)

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2016, 19:03:43 pm »
I'll try to answer your questions:

we need to decide which would be best know that both will take time.
Yes both take time and effort. My personal view is that PUPD and keeping him in the cot even when he is mad (but you are always there) is likely much faster to the end goal but emotionally likely to be much harder.  The shush/pat (adapted) and gradual weaning method will likely take longer overall but probably easier emotionally as you take each step.

One thing we both wonder, is there a cut off for trying. As in if we’ve been trying one method one night to get him off and it literally takes all night, should be just go back to normal so he gets ‘some’ sleep; or just keep trying and trying?
With both you just keep going.  The thing is if you "give in" at any point all you teach him is that if he fusses and refuses to sleep in his cot for long enough then you will eventually hold him for a sleep. The result is he screams for longer and longer periods always believing you will give in. Either way you show him you are there for him, you have not abandoned him, you sympathise with his upset and frustration of a change of the rules but you are absolutely certain he is to sleep in his cot.

Should we be trying the methods for his daytime naps as well, or keep these as they are to ensure he gets some sleep?
Naps and nights. I would start with the first nap of the day because if he refuses for a long time then he will be shattered by second nap or night time and likely end up sleeping at least some. it also gives him two practices of sleeping in the cot for nap before night/BT arrives.
Doing it only at night or only in the day will draw out the whole thing far longer and may be confusing.

As in a worse case scenario, we try all night no sleep then carry on trying the next day as well, no sleep; surely thats counter productive with him getting over tired?
Whilst generally being OT can disturb sleep and we all want our LOs well rested, in the case of sleep training the OT will eventually work in your favour.
Running a long term routine where LO is always OT because A times are too long, stimulation too high etc is certainly not ideal and usually people following BW will reduce an A time if stimulation was high or LO seems extra tired, maybe due to a growth spurt or illness, even teething, we make these adaptations when necessary following LOs cues and our knowledge of their needs, we avoid OT (we also avoid UT, under tired). In the short term though no harm will come to your LO for getting a dose of OT - eventually all babies sleep - and at the end of it all when you reach your goal he sleeps better, more peacefully, more confidently, better naps, better nights.  Short term loss of sleep for the goal of long term confidence to sleep happily alone is worth it.
I honestly believe independent sleep is a gift we can give to our children, the gift of trusting in us so much that they know they are safe and cared for even when they are not in our arms.

what if he goes down for one (our usual method) but only sleeps 20mins when really we wanted an hour, do we try with him getting mad to continue the nap or abandon?
For full on sleep training you would continue to let him it is sleep time by resettling until the end of nap time, we usually suggest 40 mins though. So following a 20 min nap you try to resettle using the method for 40 mins before you stop.  You would get him up run a full A time until the next nap time and begin again.  If he sleeps 20 min you spend 30 resettlign and the nap is due to end 10 min later you can wake him at the correct time to begin A time and he now has to wait until his next nap time before he can sleep. This helps to establish a good routine quickly. Many people choose not to do this but to make things a bit 'easier' by letting LO sleep longer once they have resettled (rather than waking him after 10 mins) - it is your choice really.

I'll be back to continue - just putting my own LO to bed now


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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2016, 19:31:34 pm »
Rocking in the cot, should this initially always involve touching him? We have always used a gentle motion of using the mattress up and down so he gentle moves up and down, would this be something we could continue to use as he’s used to it?
This is certainly something you can use to help sooth him, yes.  However, if you want things to change (and it sounds like you do) then you need to be always alert and mindful to how much of anything you are doing - you need to wean this down to a motionless mattress before he nods off so that he learns to sleep with him weight on the mattress and with no movement.
The steps of gradual weaning I have mentioned can include keeping hands on him and rocking all the way to sleep initially but then you need to keep moving forward with reducing reducing.

Looks like you are on-line just now. If you have any further questions or if my answers are confusing I'll be around for a little while, let me know.


Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2016, 19:02:10 pm »
Thank you so much for you response, very much appreciated again.

I think we’re going to go with PU/PD and bite the bullet that it will be tough.

We’ve ordered Tracy’s book for alittle further insight and wont be starting it just yet as he’s finishing off a cold and cough so gives us some planning time.

So far we’re going to do the following, which i think is correct...

After bath relax time, read and then feed...

  • Place him in his cot, with our key words ’night night sleepy head, night night’, kisses and cuddles etc
  • He will probably get mad at this, kicking legs getting frustrated, try and reassure with keywords and patting
  • Continues getting more and more mad pick him up until he stops but no rocking (?)
  • As soon as he stops straight back down repeating the above, over and over?

Have i understood correctly that this is the basic idea and could take all night?

We’re unsure when to start as we’re visiting relatives over Christmas so dont want to start with that in-between where we wont be able to do it whilst visiting.


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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2016, 09:13:06 am »
Sounds like a good plan.
Yes it might take all night.  A LO going to sleep very late due to delaying BT (through the process of PUPD) might also wake in the night with OT NWs, you continue to respond to him at each NW but use your PUPD method, not sleeping in arms or taking to your bed.

It's a good idea to wait until you know you are able to put several days in at home with this so that his place of sleep is the same and not disturbed by visiting... although there are always reasons to put off sleep training and really you just have to choose the best-fit days and go with it.
It might be a good idea to count either the number of pick ups or the amount of time taken so that the following days you can noticeably see the improvement to keep you motivated.

Can I just check too - he doesn't use a paci/dummy?  Paci use does not go with PUPD.



Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2016, 17:01:35 pm »
No he has never b
It's a good idea to wait until you know you are able to put several days in at home with this so that his place of sleep is the same and not disturbed by visiting... although there are always reasons to put off sleep training and really you just have to choose the best-fit days and go with it.
It might be a good idea to count either the number of pick ups or the amount of time taken so that the following days you can noticeably see the improvement to keep you motivated.

Can I just check too - he doesn't use a paci/dummy?  Paci use does not go with PUPD.

No he has never taken to a dummy, just blumin plays with it he's never seen it as a comforter; we have just tried to introduce a teddy thats with him when he sleeps/in his cot.

Thank you again, we're going psyche ourselves up to try after Christmas.

My personal worry is what happens if he gets massively worked up, really really mad arching back etc. We would have obviously picked him up but if we're not meant to rock at this point, are we literally just meant to stand there singing/sleepy words until he's calm. I don't mind this as long as i'm prepared beforehand with all scenarios.

Obviously all children are different but is there an average time this should take, a week 2 weeks again so i'm prepared!

Thank you again, we'll read Tracy's book in preparation as well!

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2016, 18:51:44 pm »
My personal worry is what happens if he gets massively worked up, really really mad arching back etc. We would have obviously picked him up but if we're not meant to rock at this point, are we literally just meant to stand there singing/sleepy words until he's calm
Everything is always your judgement call.
I cannot tell you my own experience with PUPD as my LO was gradually sleep trained from birth and I have not been through this particular sleep training journey. However, even with the most independent of sleepers who are sleep trained early and happy to self sooth, there are still ups and down, I've had my share of disturbance and the routine going off track etc.  I know with my LO there were a few times he was SO upset that I actually brought him out of his room. This is not something I would have ordinarily done nor did lightly, I knew at that time in that moment that there was no way on this planet he was going to calm and that I needed to change the scene to distract him out of the 'zone' of crying/screaming.  I brought him to a different room and sat on my own bed, his back arching, kicking, the whole shebang.  Oddly somewhere in that back arching, kicking and screaming (I could not tell you what the change was) I knew it was time to put him back in his cot, without any significant change in the crying he was first crying to get out of the cot but later crying because he wanted back in so he could sleep. His Daddy stood and watched and asked me how I knew to put him back - well I didn't really, either instinct or guessing, I just tried it.
Maybe 3-6 times in his entire life I have brought him back downstairs after BT and put the TV on - if anyone said I'd ever do that I would say no way but when a LO is in agony of teething and absolutely nothing helps you try anything...and a calm TV programme with cuddles in a blanket did the trick to distract my boy  from his pain enough to feel relaxed again and go back to bed.
So it's your judgement call when you are dealing with your LO.

Obviously all children are different but is there an average time this should take, a week 2 weeks again so i'm prepared!
I think you'll likely see progress in 3-5 days then regression where he tries all out to go back to how things were and then further progress.
You might need/want to post with your progress and routine times.
As your LO approaches 10 months the journey towards the 2-1 nap drop might begin which can appear like the sleep training is not working but actually it's a routine change that's needed.  So bare this in mind too.  Some LOs drop to 1 nap around 11-12 months but some much later.  There's usually some sleep disturbance when LO is ready for a routine change and when there are developmental leaps etc - it is easier to see the routine and tweak it when you know LO is an independent sleeper as it takes the AP out of the equation.

Have a good Xmas and we'll be here when you are ready :)


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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #11 on: December 15, 2016, 21:04:49 pm »
We’ve bought and read Tracy’s book on PU/PD which has been especially interesting and now in the process of planning how we are going to approach it.

We have a few questions which are not really mentioned in the book (or i’ve not understood them).

Henry being 9months on the 21st of Dec, first say to try and sooth him whilst he’s lying down. However, at this point he will almost always be crying, rubbing his eyes and banging his legs up and down.
  • When Tracy says to pick them up, do i literally just pick him up and cradle him until he stops crying? No swaying, not bopping or rocking or anything? Can i sing, or speak to him or literally just nothing?
  • If i pick him up and he does the above but with arch back and kicking legs i put him straight down?
  • The book mentions 8mths to a year about them sitting, standing up and to put them down, Henry doesn’t do this at all so we just place our hand on him instead or do the above pick up?
  • There is a lot of mentions of rubbing placing hand on their back, Henry is always lying on his back so does she mean his tummy or chest as i cannot get to his back?

Thanks for any help with the above :)

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2016, 09:13:33 am »
Hi there!

So, in answer to your questions:

Quote (selected)
When Tracy says to pick them up, do i literally just pick him up and cradle him until he stops crying? No swaying, not bopping or rocking or anything? Can i sing, or speak to him or literally just nothing?
Exactly!  I find it easier with an older/heavier baby to hold upright (as tough I were going to burp him), but you can cradle too.  But the important bit is that you don't want to be moving.   You're only picking up to reassure/help him calm down your don't want him to fall back asleep in your arms.  You can definitely talk to him though!  When I PU, I usually say "here, let me help you calm down", I might repeat my key phrase as he's in my arms if he's really crying and then before I PD, I'll say "ok time to go to sleep now".

Quote (selected)
If i pick him up and he does the above but with arch back and kicking legs i put him straight down?
Yes, you don't want him to be fighting you.  You put him straight down even if he starts crying/is still crying then you can PU again if you want.

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The book mentions 8mths to a year about them sitting, standing up and to put them down, Henry doesn’t do this at all so we just place our hand on him instead or do the above pick up?
This is really up to you and your son's characteristics.  I found that with my 6 month old, picking up just got him even more frustrated, so I ended up just soothing from the crib with a hand on him.

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There is a lot of mentions of rubbing placing hand on their back, Henry is always lying on his back so does she mean his tummy or chest as i cannot get to his back?
Yep!  Since he's a back sleeper, you'll have to adapt.  The important part is having physical contact so that he can feel your presence through being calmed down and especially when he's falling asleep and his eyes are closed.

Hope this helps.  Best of luck.

Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2016, 09:39:32 am »
Exactly!  I find it easier with an older/heavier baby to hold upright (as tough I were going to burp him), but you can cradle too.  But the important bit is that you don't want to be moving.   You're only picking up to reassure/help him calm down your don't want him to fall back asleep in your arms.  You can definitely talk to him though!  When I PU, I usually say "here, let me help you calm down", I might repeat my key phrase as he's in my arms if he's really crying and then before I PD, I'll say "ok time to go to sleep now".

Thanks, holding him upright might be a different way to distinguish that something different is happening this time. We hold him like that when he bumps his head or gets upset in general daytime. At night when he crys we usually pick him up and rock/cradle him so that might be confusing thats not happening.

Either way he’s not going to be happy and crying, so just have to talk to him and reassure till he stops crying.

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2016, 12:56:45 pm »
I think at this age Tracy advises to hold in a cradle position when picking up (it may be in a different book to the one you have), however whatever works best for you is fine, it isn't like there is going to be a magic wand for one way and not the other. Holding in the cradle position is so that LO is almost ready to be put down again and there is less change in positioning and less movement overall to get them back in the cot.  Some only calm in the upright position though so that's fine also - the key thing is that you are not holding until asleep you are only holding until calm and the other key thing is that LO knows he is not abandoned or ignored as you are right there responding.

But the important bit is that you don't want to be moving.
Following the method to the letter you would not move, rock or jiggle however personally I find no problem with adapting it slightly.  Many people use shush/pat in the cot after PD this is when you have a hand on him, if you want to include an adapted pat whereby you rub or ever so slightly rock with a firm hand it is certainly possible to wean this just as easily as patting - the benefit is that he gains some extra comfort and soothing in the cot instead of being picked up.  It is possible to have a firm hand on his hip, or nappy area for him to feel you are there and to move your hand slightly to make a slight rock motion. You also mentioned you rocked the mattress slightly to help him relax, I see no problem with this in the cot as a soothing method which he already associates with sleep, it is easily weaned so long as you keep focus on reduction.
It is also possible to rock/rub a little when you pick up if he is not calming at all, help him relax then put him in his cot.

I mention these things because if you find it incredibly hard you might be tempted to let him sleep in arms again, if you get desperate yk? So it's better to have a few options and a few tools in your kit that you feel are "allowed" if things get really really hard.  for instance if you end up picking up and rocking a great deal but then putting him down still awake and rocking in the cot (either firm hand or the mattress) this is still progress from sleeping in arms - it is even more progress if all the rocking stops before he nods off to sleep but if you do not manage that right away all is not lost. Just the same as him falling to sleep with a firm hand on him - ultimately you aim for all hands off and you out of the room before he nods off but in the first days if you have a hand on him no big deal, it would still be a huge step for him to fall to sleep in the cot.

Key phrases and using your voice are essential IMO. Use the same phrase for every sleep so that it reinforces it's power of comfort and reassurance. Later you can use this phrase from outside the door.

Good luck