Author Topic: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?  (Read 16585 times)

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Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2016, 14:48:31 pm »
Thank you both once again :)

One thing i’ve read a few times is about whether our LO will get on with being held or cradled by us or better being comforted in his cot. How will he know if he prefers one of another as both will result in him getting mad and also its a hard process already so i dont understand how you determine this or that wont work?

That leads me on top is there a general time by something should have happened, as in his crying you pick him up and he stops after you comfort him, but what if he doesn’t stop for 5/10/15mins surely thats not practical and should be abandoned as we’re not able to comfort him that way?

Sorry for the questions, i’m just trying to foresee potential areas that might crop up once we start.

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2016, 15:14:05 pm »
It's totally fine to ask questions.

One thing i’ve read a few times is about whether our LO will get on with being held or cradled by us or better being comforted in his cot. How will he know if he prefers one of another as both will result in him getting mad and also its a hard process already so i dont understand how you determine this or that wont work?
Some times you just have to guess.  Something inside you (instinct) might hint to put him down, or pick him up, and you might not hear that instinct or you might hear it and still be unsure - in which case just try it.  It's fine.  If you put him down and try to settle in the cot you are still there with him, at no point is he going to feel abandoned or hopeless which is what causes cortisol levels to rise, he might scream in fact I'm pretty sure you can expect him to scream, but his stress level is low whilst you are there. This means that it is okay for you not to get it "right" every single time and it is okay for you to try this and that and see how it goes. As you go along you will learn what helps and what doesn't, you will learn to hear the "gut feeling" or "instinct" telling you he needs to be put down (or picked up) at the same time he will learn how to sleep in his cot and when he needs to call for you (and when he doesn't).  It is team work between you and your LO. At the beginning he will just be mad with you for changing the rules, this is not how he wants it to play out but ultimately having parents who are rested and can have a proper sleep at night and a short break in the day IS in his best interests.
I think I gave you a little story in an earlier post about mine kicking and screaming, back arching etc, he needed to be held, and then without any apparent change he needed to go in his cot - and I could not explain to his Daddy what the difference was, I either had a gut feeling or I was just guessing, or just trying it to see what happened. My DS settled right away (because he was screaming to get in his cot and wanted me to let him sleep), had he not settled right away I would have tried a little in the cot and then picked him up again.
Another little story with similar result: My  mum was visiting and LO was fine and happy, then became unsettled and fussing. i said he is tired, needs to go to bed. My mum wanted to hold him so did not put him to bed. He fussed more, and more, and then all out crying. I said he needs to go to bed. She refused to put him in bed telling me he is hungry (he fed every 3 hrs and was not due a feed for another 2hrs or so), then told me he wanted a dummy/paci (he had always refused a paci so this was not it) and eventually I got mad with my mum and demanded she had LO over.  I took him directly to his bed, said " it's ok you can sleep now" put him down and he instantly stopped crying, smiled at me, I said "goodnight" and left the room. He nodded off right away.  This is only from learning when he needs to sleep, his cues, what he needs and wants.  When you have held a baby in arms for all naps you have learned what your baby needs/wants for this method, you have not yet had a chance to learn his cues for a different way of sleeping - but don't worry, you will.  You really will.

That leads me on top is there a general time by something should have happened, as in his crying you pick him up and he stops after you comfort him, but what if he doesn’t stop for 5/10/15mins surely thats not practical and should be abandoned as we’re not able to comfort him that way?
There is no timing during sleep training. If you held him 15 mins and he was almost calm you would continue for another minute to 16 or 17 mins wouldn't you? It would be pointless to put him down at 15 mins not calm when you feel he is going to be calm soon.  In the very early days you can expect to be with him a lot and for there not to be a great deal of sleep but it will get quicker as the days go on. I suggest you start with nap 1 of the day so you all have some practice before BT, plan who takes which shift day and night and rest whenever you can.  If you can put aside non-essential house work for a few days even better, save your energy, you can catch up later.
When my DS was independently sleeping and in a suitable routine it took 3 mins to wind down, put down and leave the room. He fell asleep alone and happy. When we had difficult phases of nap dropping, moving bedrooms, teething and illness I have been with him for hours.  Sleep training is going to be somewhere in between.

Please do feel free to ask more questions.


Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2016, 10:16:16 am »
Thank you again, very interesting.

Am i right in thinking that when he arches his back in your arms this is him actually tired and fed up wanting to go to sleep but doesn’t understand why? I find the whole process of the things they do or dont do when they cannot tell us quite interesting.

Recently (well 3 nights in a row) he has actually gone longer stretches bizarrely, after 12 he now only wakes up around when he is due a feed, so does a couple of 2.5/3hr stretches on his own. We still plan on doing the sleep training but interesting that i assume he’s gone though a sleep cycle in that time, perhaps he’s a little more tired or something as doesn’t stop moving or blumin rolling over, especially when trying to change him!

Talking on the feeding side of things, how does this work with PU/PD as i’m not 100% sure if its mentioned in the book?

Currently he is fed every 3hrs for 10mins, should we continue with this when we start PU/PD or should he not even need food at night by this age; i’ve read a few conflicting opinions on this. My wife feeds him and ensure she its no longer than 10 and hopes to shorten then and lengthen out the 3hrs as well. he eat 3 ‘solid’ meals through the day topped up with formula milk in the morning and further breast milk in the afternoon.

Its all very complicated but want to make it as much of a smooth transition as possible for him.

Than you again :)

Offline michaeljacknnugg

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2016, 11:05:16 am »
Hi there,

As you are still at the researching stage, I will just drop in a few questions and suggestions.

Have you done the temperament quiz in the book? If he is spirited then it's very likely that PUPD won't work (too much stimulation).

If you are running a sleep deficit now, it might be worth thinking about using the Christmas break to catch up a bit before you start anything. You and your wife can give each other breaks with early nights, sleeping in shifts or taking it in turns to lie in. My lo is a much worse sleeper than his brother and yet I am much better rested because I regularly go to bed early.

There are other options if this doesn't work or doesn't feel right for you. The No Cry Sleep Solution is a good companion to BW, for example. Follow your heart on this one.

My 13mo has gone through periods of waking up in the early evening, and also being up several times a night. I've made a rule that until a certain time I will offer a cup of water and a cuddle, and after that I'm happy to feed him. He eats LOADS of solids and I'm breastfeeding, and for me the immunological benefits of a feed at this time of year outweigh the cons of having to get up to feed him.
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Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2016, 12:42:09 pm »
Have you done the temperament quiz in the book? If he is spirited then it's very likely that PUPD won't work (too much stimulation).


Oh no we’ve not done that, as only read the chapter on PU/PD so far. Do you happen to know which chapter the temperament quiz is under?

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #20 on: December 19, 2016, 14:41:03 pm »
There's a copy of the baby quiz here:
The BW "Know Your Baby Quiz"

Am i right in thinking that when he arches his back in your arms this is him actually tired and fed up wanting to go to sleep but doesn’t understand why?
I can only really say from my own experience, it was usually frustration, being really really frustrated.  So he could do this if I tried to put him to nap/bed UT (under tired) and kick up a huge fuss arching his back and it would not mean he wanted to go to sleep, it meant he was trying to tell me he was not yet ready and needed more play time before he could sleep.  But yes, at other times it meant he wanted me to put him down so he could sleep - mine was sleeping independently in his own bed very early on and would be really quite unhappy if I tired to make him sleep in arms, it was kind of like asking me to sleep on a coach trip, I have, I will, I can, but I will likely wait until I am super tired, won't be comfortable and you can bet on it that I'll complain.  I guarantee you I did not get it right all the time, but it's okay, babies are very forgiving, I'm sure they know we are trying our best.

Currently he is fed every 3hrs for 10mins, should we continue with this when we start PU/PD or should he not even need food at night by this age; i’ve read a few conflicting opinions on this.
I probably wouldn't feed more than once in the night at this age based on him also taking solids and formula in the day.
Some BF babies do still have 2 night feeds, breast milk is digested more quickly so night feeds generally seem to continue a bit longer than for formula fed babies.  It's up to you and your DW to decide if you want to go for 1 or 2 NFs though, a feed can be weaned gently whenever you like.  What you don't want to do though is to "give up" on PUPD or shush/pat sleep training by resorting to feeding to settle.  If he is not hungry don't feed.  I would check it is a minimum of 3hrs between night feeds.

he eat 3 ‘solid’ meals through the day topped up with formula milk in the morning and further breast milk in the afternoon.
At this age it is common to have 4 milk feeds and 3 solids meals in the day (plus a night feed usually for BF babies although some have no night feed).  It's not 100% clear here if LO is getting 4 milk feeds in the day - you might find the nights are easier if you increase to 4 if you are not already doing 4. Tank up in the day so that LO doesn't need to take so many calories over night.


Offline michaeljacknnugg

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #21 on: December 19, 2016, 17:12:40 pm »
To me the hunger question is dependent on how he's doing on solids...is he pretty well established, would you say? For us there was a point at which this became clear, and the night feeds naturally spaced themselves out.

We were doing BLW; it's important to remember that with puréed food a lot of their intake is water so contains less calories than milk.
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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #22 on: December 19, 2016, 17:21:52 pm »
Oh, I forgot to say that we were on 3 feeds a night for aaaaages, then it dropped to one with solids. This kid just eats though, he's just matched my 9yo on  how much he's had for dinner and he's been eating all day.
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Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #23 on: December 19, 2016, 18:40:29 pm »
He eats pretty much everything we give him, porridge for breakfast a beef stew type thing for lunch and then spag bol for t as a day example.
We blend slightly less so there is small chunks for him to chew now he has about 6 ish teeth. We then give him 4oz of formula mid morning and then perhaps a couple of smallish breast feeds in the afternoon, then one after bath then the every 3hrs start. I suppose naturally increasing the 3hr gap would make sense in the evening.

Its hard to tell if he is waking up because he is hungry or just because he cannot put himself back to sleep yet, sometimes he has slept for 4hrs in the night, we dont wake him for feed we just keep an eye on the time during his usual wakes.

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #24 on: December 19, 2016, 18:57:36 pm »
Sounds like the solids are going well :)  It's a good time to introduce finger foods too.  They don't need any teeth at all to eat finger foods so don't worry if he has only 6 teeth.  The finger foods help all sorts of developmental areas such as fine motor skills and language development.

Does he have a milk in the morning when he wakes up (before breakfast I mean)?
Also, the 4oz of formula, does he drain the bottle or is there a bit left?
I would think there ought to be at least one long stretch of sleep in the night rather than feeding every 3hrs, otherwise it could be 3 night feeds.


Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #25 on: December 19, 2016, 20:20:54 pm »
Sounds like the solids are going well   It's a good time to introduce finger foods too.  They don't need any teeth at all to eat finger foods so don't worry if he has only 6 teeth.  The finger foods help all sorts of developmental areas such as fine motor skills and language development.

Does he have a milk in the morning when he wakes up (before breakfast I mean)?
Also, the 4oz of formula, does he drain the bottle or is there a bit left?

He has some finger foods, banana and little strips of toast so far and he likes mushing them in his mouth.

My wife gives him a little feed before his breakfast when he first wakes, but not a long one.
More times than not, we’ve only really started bottle formula in the last week or so but more times than not he’ll have the 4oz yes.

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #26 on: December 20, 2016, 09:23:33 am »
It sounds like he might do well with a bit more milk in the day. Either a full BF on WU or more formula mid morning so that he is not draining the bottle but there is an oz or so left so he can take as much as he wants - or both of those things. Usually with bottle feeding we say to make sure LO has their fill and there is a small amount left in the bottle.
Milk is still his primary food at this point, you might find with more in the day he doesn't need so much at night.  If a LO gets into the habit of not taking so much milk in the day and taking it at night instead then they might need some encouragement to switch it to day time. Increasing the milk in the day would be my first suggestion...and then looking at how many feeds over night and perhaps dropping one of those.


Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #27 on: December 28, 2016, 20:19:45 pm »
I hope everyone had a nice Christmas and as its all over we’re getting ready to put Henry on his sleep training.

After going through how we’re going to approach a few questions we’re not sure about have arisen.

  • We have always had white noise and a lullaby playing in Henry’s room, should we continue with this during PU/PD?
  • If he is arching his back and kicking hard whilst holding in the book it says we should put straight down as not to fight a baby, what do we do if he is doing this in his cot? Leave him there or pick him up, surely picking him up would be ‘fighting’ him and you’ll just end up putting him straight back down?

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #28 on: December 28, 2016, 20:23:58 pm »
We have always had white noise and a lullaby playing in Henry’s room, should we continue with this during PU/PD?
Both are fine. They are not considered props (although do form habits) as they do not rely on you to keep returning to put them on.  anything that winds up and runs out of lullaby I would not use but a continuous white noise machine or CD is fine.  Check white noise doesn't stop after 40 mins, some machines do which is a bit useless.

If he is arching his back and kicking hard whilst holding in the book it says we should put straight down as not to fight a baby, what do we do if he is doing this in his cot? Leave him there or pick him up, surely picking him up would be ‘fighting’ him and you’ll just end up putting him straight back down?
If it was me I'd pick up, You can pick up and put right back down again, part of the process is to briefly pick up and put down anyway.
I think part of the reason is that it can be such a struggle to keep hold of them so for safety you put them down to prevent dropping if they are kicking and fighting.

Lovely Christmas, thank you. Hope you did too :)


Offline Henrys_Dad

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Re: About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2016, 11:35:57 am »
Well i’ve just tried our first attempt with his first day time nap for 1hr 30mins.

  • Started with a few quiet books read in his cot.
  • I then settled him down with quite reassuring words, obviously initially he’s quite awake so would try and roll over, i would calmly put him on his back rubbing his tummy gently.
  • After a few minutes this obviously got frustrated, kicking legs and crying so i picked him up..  ‘its okay daddy’s here, sleepy time etc'
  • During the first 5/10 mins he would almost always roll onto his side when i put him back down so would calmly correct him rub his tummy then pick up if the crying got louder.
  • First 20mins he got very worked up with coughing as well, i remained calm and just repeated the process, his eyes would be closed a lot of the time during this crying. He also stopped rolling onto his side once i put him down
  • After about 45mins he did seem to tire bit from this & there was a few seconds where he stopped crying in the cot with eyes closed, didn’t last.
  • After about an hour he seemed to ‘wake up’ if that makes sense, less ’sleepy’ (although he never slept slept) i did continue but he was essentially awake and times not crying in the cot would be cooing at me, playing with his feet etc until the 1hr 30min was up, i then got him up.

Unsure if this is normal for the first day time attempt, it was very hard even with ear plugs and i hope my back holds out!

Don't think i did anything wrong and appreciate it wont happen straight away, but hopefully he will give some small signs of improvement to give encouragement for further attempts.

Update 1: This afternoon’s nap.

  • Started the same as above..
  • After 5 mins crying he fell asleep on his back my hand on his tummy, i then left the room and he slept for 25mins
  • Woke and essentially screamed none stop for 40mins, with me only putting him down when leg kicking & arch back got too much; then just stopped as only 15mins left of 1hr.30.
  • I still try and reassure him throughout, no idea if he can even hear me though.

Update 2: Nighttime.

We’re still aiming for about 3hrs between feeds slowly increasing, his last fee before bed about 6.30ish.

  • 6pm bath, read and then feed. Started to put him down at 6.40ish and had about 20mins of crying before he went off at 7 me rubbing his back and tum
  • About 8.15 he stirred i went in and just rubbed and he went back off without a full on cry or pick up
  • 9 he woke up properly crying, so i went in and did PU/PD and after 5mins he was off asleep again. Baring in mind he is technically due his next feed at 9.30
  • 9.50 woke crying to took advantage to do his feed. Back down to sleep at 10ish again taking till about 10.05 doing PU/PD
  • 10.45 wakes, PU/PD till 10.50
  • He then lasted till about 3 :) if going by our feed routine he was due one about 1 but obviously sleeping so we left.
  • Finished feed about 3.10/3.15 i then spent just over 5mins doing PU/PD
  • Slept till about 5.30/5.45 but wide awake then :(

I’m assuming when they are wide awake towards the morning its asking too much to push it it 6.30/7ish?

My second day today so hopefully he continues nodding off a bit on his own.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2016, 08:42:50 am by Henrys_Dad »