About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?

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It's going to get easy. It will.

The first day is bound to be the hardest but already on nap 2 there was an improvement as he did fall to sleep in his cot after just 5 mins even though he did only sleep for a very short time. He was likely OT by that point having missed his first nap and been awake for a long time, this likely led to waking 25 min into his nap. It's okay t hough, he is not going to be OT for ever, it's just a short while. You are giving him the opportunity to sleep he is just reluctant to take it just yet as the rules have changed for him.
You've made great progress although it may not feel that way just yet.

Don't worry about him hearing you, if he can't he still knows you are there as you are touching, picking up etc.

If you are holding a hand on him for a while and this is hurting your back perhaps you can work out a set up where you have a low stool (foot stool, step stool?) or chair by his cot and see if you can reach a hand through the bar so you are not bending so much.

Hope your night went well (or as well as can be expected during sleep training).

[Henrys_Dad]

The first day is bound to be the hardest but already on nap 2 there was an improvement as he did fall to sleep in his cot after just 5 mins even though he did only sleep for a very short time. He was likely OT by that point having missed his first nap and been awake for a long time, this likely led to waking 25 min into his nap. It's okay t hough, he is not going to be OT for ever, it's just a short while. You are giving him the opportunity to sleep he is just reluctant to take it just yet as the rules have changed for him.
You've made great progress although it may not feel that way just yet.

Thank you, i’ve actually updated my post with how the night went which was quite good ‘i think’.

Daytimes will be harder because we’ve held him during the day to ensure he had some sleep, whilst at night we always tried to put him down when he woke up with the aforementioned bobbing/accidental parenting.

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Yes the night looks pretty good considering

That longer stretch of 5hrs between NFs looks better - this is what would be expected of a younger baby so there is no problem at all that he is not feeding every 3hrs.  At 9 months I would expect day and night feeds to be no closer than 4hrs and for there to be at least one long stretch of sleep between feeds at night.
Do make sure he gets as much milk as he wants in the day, BF for as long as he wants, bottle feeds to have an oz or so left in the bottle when he is showing he is finished, and roughly every 4hrs although it can be longer than 4hrs at this age and tends to stretch to 4.5 or 5hrs as LO ends up napping through the feed time but has had some solids to see them through the additional calorie need.

I’m assuming when they are wide awake towards the morning its asking too much to push it it 6.30/7ish?

  If you've got it in you, you can keep him in his room until 7am, dim light, PUPD etc until "morning" when the lights come on.  If he calms or even starts playing you can leave the room (even though he is not asleep) which can be helpful sometimes as you can then walk back in with a different tone, put the light on and say "good morning!" all bright and cheery.  This can really help to teach him how long he is to sleep at night.  If he is used to doing 12hr nights you might want to add this section of PUPD to your sleep training routine and start the day (A time) from 7am when he is supposed to WU.
Having said that, some babies just don't sleep 12 hr nights. Mine didn't.  Regardless of what I did or how I altered the routine he was up at 5/5.30 for most of his baby and toddler stage - and he was a fully independent sleeper so it was not based on need for props of any kind.  So if your LO has never slept a full 12hrs you might find it more suitable to build a slightly shorter night into the routine.
(mine only did 12hr night sleep after all naps were dropped, he was just over 2.5yo, the 12hr night continued until he was about 4.5yo and he is now in bed 12hrs but 30 mins of this is reading before sleep, about 11hrs sleep then another 20 - 30 min reading in the morning before getting up for the day).

Do you feel comfortable with your E and A times through the day? or would you like to post the EAS times for a look over?

[Henrys_Dad]

Thank you

Below is essentially the routine we’ve been on for a good 6 months or so i would say, just with the rocking whenever sleep was needed at night and holding him for his naps during the day. With this latter aspect changing from yesterday.

• Wake at roughly 5.30/6
• BF once awake and then a cuddle in bed
• Awake time downstairs with a play
• Porridge at around 7.30
• Clean up and back to play / crawling around
• BF or formula (we’re getting him used to forumla) before nap
• 9 / 9.30 nap
  once awake - has varied but up until yesterday in sling would be around an hour to 1 hour 20 mins - from yesterday we’ve now added books in cot and teddy to nap wind down
• 10.30 / 11 - awake
• 12 - Lunch (portion of cooked food, water to sip and fruit if eaten all of food which is 9.5 times out of 10)
  Play / maybe a in the night garden episode when I’m at work as my wife uses this to get a few jobs done etc and books etc
  Time can vary but sometime in-between lunch and second nap a BF
• 3pm - nap
• 4 / 4.30 Awake
• 5pm - Dinner
• 5.30 - quiet play
• 6pm  - Bath
• 6.15 - once dressed read 3 small books
• 6.30 - BF
• 6.45 - before yesterday start to rock to sleep  - from yesterday same time but down in cot for PU/PD

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Looking over your EASY times there are a couple of suggestions I can make.
There are only 3 milk feeds during the day when at this age most would have 4 milk feeds.  This might be contributing to the need to NF, you might find NFs reduce or are easier to wean if you add in an additional day time milk feed.
Common times for milk feeds are: 7, 11, 3, 7 (moved to fit around naps and at this age might be longer than 4hrs between as mentioned earlier).
Common times for solids are 1hr after after milk feeds.

With this in mind my suggestion would be:

E 6am ish WU milk (this can move up to 7am if WU comes later)
E 7/7.30/8 solids breakfast
A 3-4hr depending on WU time
(the 11.30 milk can be here instead at around 9.30am if LO is awake early and takes WU milk at 6am)
S 10 - 11.30
E 11.30 milk on WU from nap (in a month or 2 this becomes a solids snack instead of milk)
E 12 solids lunch
E 2.30/3 milk (in a couple of months this becomes a solids snack instead of milk)
A 3.5hr
S 3 - 4/4.30 (you can do a slightly shorter nap to allow a bit more time before BT)
E 4.30/5pm solids dinner
A 3-3.5hr
E 7 BT milk
BT 7.30
NF 10/11(at a suitable NW)
long stretch of sleep 5hrs or so
NF 3-4am (this one gradually weaned to extend the long sleep)
WU and E 6/7am

The suggestions above are to give a good length A time for age (3-4 hrs is guidance) and to fit milk feeds around naps.

[Henrys_Dad]

Thank you again we’ll probably start to incorporate that over the coming days.

Todays naps were a little better than yesterday, the first taking 20mins to go down but then sleeping for about 1hr30. The afternoon nap took longer as he was just awake and cooing kicking his legs at me (not crying) i persisted and he nodded off after about 35mins and slept for around that time as well.

[creations]

Great progress! That's a huge improvement from yesterday. I hope the progress gives you the motivation to press on.
Although I have not been through this exact process myself I believe from what I've read and seen on the boards that the progress will be good for several days followed by a "regression" which is hard - LOs last ditch attempt to get things back how they used to be - so ready yourself for that. I think it is around 5 days but I'm not 100% sure on the timing on that.

Keep going

[Henrys_Dad]

Last night wasn’t as good as the first night, he did on going down sleep for nearly 3hr20min which he has never done from the initial night time bedtime.

He then woke had some feed and i put him down a few times across about an 1hr, waking a few times. After this restless period he slept for a further 4hrs, woke had another feed, he then seemed very awake so took 35mins to put him to sleep, after he cooed and kicked his legs at me grinning away.

My wife started her turn today and seemed to follow the patter of my first day, first nap was just crying no sleep. Second nap slept almost straight away for 30mins, then woke and cried the remainder.

Will see how tonight goes... after we followed your routine suggestion not exactly a few time but essentially the same.

[Henrys_Dad]

Last night was the stuff of unicorns!

Bed time 7.14 asleep by 7.20.
Slept till 11.00, change nappy feed for about 10mins.
Slept till 5.30, woke and starting exploring his cot and cooing. He’s never slept 6 hours i dont think, ever!

This is obviously the improvement before the 5 day regression but certainly the signs are encouraging

Is this improvement partly because he’s slowing learning to put himself to sleep or just because he’s so tired?

Day 2 for my wife today, probably a more stubborn baby i think. The naps seems to be harder than the nights so far.

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You're all doing great

My wife started her turn today and seemed to follow the patter of my first day, first nap was just crying no sleep. Second nap slept almost straight away for 30mins, then woke and cried the remainder.

Here, I think you have already guessed, is where he tests out to see if things can be "normal" with Mummy or if she is also going to insist on the "new rules" of sleep.  It can also be harder for some Mums if breast feeding has been used as a prop as baby knows Daddy can't offer the breast whilst Mummy can - I don't think you have this additional problem in your case but even so LO is testing the boundaries.  Again she has done well to continue and to get through to nap 2 where there is improvement, helped along by LOs tiredness.

He’s never slept 6 hours i dont think, ever!

Wonderful!!  So, the things I mentioned about the milk feeds, you do need to make sure enough is offered in the day in case he needs extra now he is going a longer stretch overnight. I think you know this already but I mention it as I know you will all be feeling tired from the last few days of disturbance (and the longer disturbance up to this point) and sometimes things slip our minds when tired.

Really, it was a great night to see a longer stretch of sleep even if he was still up for the day at 5.30am.  The overall routine and WU time can be sorted out if it remains this early, we can help you shift it, perhaps better to wait another few days or so as his A times will be erratic just now through this sleep training period.  It may be that he has a touch of OT prior to BT leading to an earlier wake up...or it could be that he is better rested having a more restorative night sleep (not spending so long eating) and so has finished sleeping which would need a later BT - we can probably work this out when things settle down a bit.
There is one thing you can try now with that 5.30 WU which is to go in at 4.30am and do a W2S (wake to sleep) here is some info if you are not familiar with it:
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)
Don't feel obliged to try this immediately, you might be enjoying that 5-6 hr sleep!!  It is an option though, either now or later.

Is this improvement partly because he’s slowing learning to put himself to sleep or just because he’s so tired?

It's both really.  The additional tiredness does help him to accept sleeping in his cot more readily and also to transition between sleep cycles rather than waking up, he will be tired.  But also he is learning too, he knows that you are there, knows you comes when he needs you, so his confidence is building, this also helps him to be confident to transition sleep cycles without needing to fully wake and call out.  He has less need to call out because he is learning every time he does you always respond - he needs you less (not more) as a result.

Keep going - you are all doing wonderfully   And it's only been a few days.

[Henrys_Dad]

Continued improvement yesterday, only slept 30mins each nap but the day before one was no sleep at all!

Night time not as good, more wake ups but still a 3hr initial stretch, a little wake up then fed. Then a further 4hr before wake and then another 2hrs before wake up around 7ish.

So i think slowly improving, night times are better than day naps defiantly but i think we know why.

One thing i did wonder thats not mentioned in Tracy’s book. Is after the initial 2 days for each parent, can this just alternate by day as he knows that both parents are on the same page as it were?  As i will be back to soon so wont be able to do whole days on my own as much.

Happy new year to all parents

[Henrys_Dad]

Naps we’re a little confused and i’m not sure if this is worrying too soon before the new process has sunk in with him, or a trend developing.

Daytime naps he constantly wakes around the 30min mark (apart from once) my third day today and after he woke i went in and he seemed sleepy and wasn’t crying but certainly seems stubborn about nodding off. He then cried for the rest of the time whilst we did PU/PD.

Is this the correct way of dealing with naps as it seems almost impossible for him to sleep again after he’s woken the first time, he rubs his eyes bit but convinced he wont sleep again. Even if he does it could be for such a short period as well.

Update:
The second nap today was an absolute nightmare, after 35mins which is quickly becoming the norm for naps, he sprung awake i was waiting as well to sooth him as well. That didn’t work, i then spent the remaining 35/40mins doing PU/PD but it was worse than i’ve ever do before he was just screaming for the vast majority of it. I’m starting to think picking him up isn’t helping, as he arches and bucks himself and hasn't actually stopped crying in my arms for the last 2 times i’ve done it, but he’s kicking his legs and screaming when down, unsure whether to continue picking him up for just to carry on rubbing his tummy.
There was a brief moment where he went on his side and i rubbed his back (his fav way i think) but the little blighter was far too stubborn to let sleep take him as he did stop screaming for a few moments.

Hoping its just the 5 day regression

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It does sound like the 5 day regression. It is always quite a surprise to me as I haven't been through it myself but all the threads I have read with PUPD with the older babies do get this.
hang in there. Just hang in there!  Stay with him, do what you feel is right to pick up or to keep in the cot (keep in the cot if it is dangerous to pick up of course! you don't want him kicking his way out of your arms and they can be strong squirmy things at that age eh)

WRT both parents taking part - you just do what you can. It does of course help him to know the rules for both parents but no one expects that you can both do equal all the time.  LOs learn very quickly to sleep in different ways for different people so this initial stage of you both doing PUPD consistently will have been very helpful I would think.

Are you timing your A times from when he wakes (ie nap 1 is timed from morning WU, nap 2 is timed from nap 1 wake up time) or are you running a mostly "set time" routine at the moment (ie nap 1 comes at a set time regardless of morning WU time, nap 2 comes at a set time regardless of whether he sleep for nap 1 or not or if it was 30 mins or 1hr 30 mins)?

Happy New Year to you all too.

[Henrys_Dad]

Are you timing your A times from when he wakes (ie nap 1 is timed from morning WU, nap 2 is timed from nap 1 wake up time) or are you running a mostly "set time" routine at the moment (ie nap 1 comes at a set time regardless of morning WU time, nap 2 comes at a set time regardless of whether he sleep for nap 1 or not or if it was 30 mins or 1hr 30 mins)?

The latter of those, set times for nap times regardless give or take. We then try and ensure its an 1.30hr even if he wakes during we do PU/PD.

The previous night was still similar, 7 down, 10.45 wake, nappy change and feed then asleep till 4.30ish then feed again down for final couple of hours. Him waking himself each time.

Yesterdays day naps were better I tried to pre-empt the 30mins by rubbing his back in advance, this seemed to work for both naps. Morning we got 50mins, the afternoon nap we got 1hr20mins.

Last night seem to reflect this, took 20mins to get off (obviously less tired) still slept till around 10.45 again but after feed and nappy change he cried none stop for an hour and we swapped, once we swapped he was asleep in around 5-10 mins. He’s not done this during the night before, however he did need a complete outfit change before his feed as he was wet so might have had an impact. Again woke around 4.30ish feed and back down quickly till around half 6ish.

So the night times seem to be forming a pattern.

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Sorry I wasn't around to reply yesterday - I've been poorly.

Good to hear things are still moving forward though.  Yes the nights look like a pattern is forming.  It could be the longer NW was due to needing to be fully changed, and it disturbed him, if it continues to happen when he doesn't need a full change we might need to look at routine to see if anything needs a tweak. Hard whilst you are sleep training though, but as you already noticed if he gets a longer nap he is less tired at BT.  At the moment though he "should" still be tired enough with one short and one long nap.  Actually, you might want to build in a shorter nap now if you are doing set times as 9-10 months is a time when they begin to show lower sleep needs and some begin the route towards moving to one nap.
So, rather than PUPD for a 1hr 30 nap in the morning, if he is tending to do 30 min nap there you could reduce the expectation to 30-60 mins instead.  The sample routine I previously gave you had a shorter afternoon nap but it is perfectly fine to have the morning as the shorter nap and the afternoon as the longer one.  it might look something like this:
WU 6-7
A 3-4hr depending on WU time
S 10-11 (1hr)
A 3.5hr
S 2.30 - 4pm (1.5hr)
A 3hr 30
BT 7.30pm

The times don't really change but the length of time you try PUPD for changes.  This means 2 things, you spend less time trying to make him sleep for nap 1, and he is up and active for longer between nap 1 and nap 2 making him more tired.  Based on the nap times you got of 50 and 1hr20 mins, depending on his mood and how he woke during those I would likely get him up.  Based on the sample routine above they both only miss 10 mins of nap time, whilst it is not "ideal" to have a nap less than 1.5hrs (it is not considered restorative unless it is over 1hr 30 mins) both naps are very close to being considered "full" for this age if you see what I mean.  Some LOs this age do well on two 1hr naps, which again doesn't fulfil the ideal of having a 1.5+hr nap but they seem to do well on it.