About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?

[Henrys_Dad]

Thank you again and hope you’re feeling better?

We’re still progressing but getting alittle confused with what he wants.

Night times are almost a routine of sleep around 7.30 then he will almost always sleep till around 10.30/11.00 when he will have a BF. However, a couple of times he’s gone to nearer 2am when he’s needed his feed, then lasts again till around about 4/5ish. So we ‘think’ he should be okay for 1 feed at night.

During the day we are moving across to formula and he is regularly having 4/5oz morning and afternoon.

Its the naps during the say we’re not sure about.

If he wakes up early (5.30is) (bottle before sleep) he sleeps for past an hour during his morning nap and will just wake suddenly happy as larry. When this happens, his afternoon nap is more tricky will cry for my wife for almost 45mins then i’ll take over and he’ll go off in about 5mins. He is either over tired or perhaps waiting for me, if its the latter we’re going back to 1 person doing the whole time.
When he wakes up later (nearer to 7)(bottle after nap) his morning nap is shorter e/g 50mins but his afternoon nap is longer. Taking of the getting up later, he woke at 5/5.15 stood up no crying but i went in and laid him straight back down and he went off again till nearer 7, so does he need to get up then or not?

Could this be the case that he only needs around 2hrs during the day as during his naps he is very happy and content and doesn’t get mad or frustrated.

Night times though are vastly improved just need to figure out if he only needs one feed and if he does stir to PU/PD.

Its all very confusing, but successful at the same time

[creations]

Its all very confusing, but successful at the same time

Believe me, I still fumble my way along every aspect of parenting with my almost 6yo

With the variable WU time and long or short morning nap - to me it sounds like he needs his first nap to come later in the morning. you can move it by say 15 min and see how things pan out.  A nap coming too early can cause earlier waking and short nap (ie what happens when he wakes at 7am) so when he wakes too early you see a better nap as the overall A time is longer.  You might need to move the afternoon nap too, but not always as you are aiming for one long (I think morning) and one shorter nap (afternoon?) routine at this age.
2hrs is probably fine in the day, maybe 2.5hr. If he's in a good mood and nights are relatively okay (I don't see multiple screaming wake ups between BT and 11pm happening to indicate OT) then I'd guess he's getting enough.

[Henrys_Dad]

Last night was the most tricky night we’ve had since started (2 weeks is up this Thursday)

The day was 50min nap in the morning and 1hr in the afternoon.

Bedtime was usual 7.30 he then woke about 8.30 a few cries and i did PU/PD for about 5mins he went off again.
Slept till 11.30 where he was changed and had some food. Awake again around 3ish more food.
He then woken at 4.30 but was just re-adjusting i think but couldn’t seem to get himself off to sleep again but clear wanted to. He then started proper crying and did PU/PD from 4.40 till about 5.30 and during that time he would have moment of pausing to nod off but just couldn’t get off and eventually got very worked up.

Unsure when scenarios like this happen, do i continue to try and get him off with him getting more and more worked up or not?

Also day naps, if he wakes up happy as larry even though its not the full 1.30 do we try to get him down for the full 1.30 when this usually means him getting very worked up. Surely if he wakes happy he’s had enough sleep for that time of day?

Shame everything is not a set routine, would be very handy!

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That night sounds like he might have been OT.  I know you've had days when there was very little napping due to the sleep trianing but he might well have had so little on those days that he just crashed out for a good (or better) sleep in the night or it could be that during the sleep training he was more prone to skip nap 1 and have a decent nap 2, the second nap being longer held off too much OT before BT helping with the night.  Just my thoughts.
So, he had a day with two naps which were not restorative. We consider 1.5hr+ to be restorative. Now there are lots of LOs on routines of 2 naps of 1hr each and they seem fine, there are some in the EASY samples I've seen, but generally we'd suggest one longer (1.5-2hr) and one shorter nap rather than two short naps.
OT at BT can cause increased number of NWs in the early part of the night sleep, it can also cause EW (early waking) and an inability to relax and resettle well at the EW.  A nap coming too early in the routine can also cause EW.
Did you move the morning nap time a bit later yet?  I would think now you need to look at settling the routine so that you get the one long nap the same each day.  Always the morning nap or always the afternoon nap rather than it changing back and forth.

Also day naps, if he wakes up happy as larry even though its not the full 1.30 do we try to get him down for the full 1.30 when this usually means him getting very worked up. Surely if he wakes happy he’s had enough sleep for that time of day?

Well, kind of yes and kind of no.  If he wakes happy as Larry AND remains in a good mood all day AND sleeps well at night, showing no signs of being OT at all then yes two short naps are fine and he is having enough sleep in the day.  It is when the entire routine is working well that you know the nap length and night length are all fine.  If there is anything "off" such as multiple NWs (which are not for food), EWs, nap or BT resistance, or just a generally grouchy baby who looks and acts tired for much of their A time, well, in that case waking happy as Larry is just to fool you
LOs can and do wake (seemingly) happy and totally do not realise just how wrecked they are going to feel in an hour or 3.
if he is going down for nap relatively well now (ie sleep training is coming on well, he is going into the cot awake and beginning to self settle) then routine is where you look when naps are not the full length.  At this point I would only do PUPD for the remainder of the nap to help him learn the habit of napping longer where he is supposed to take a long nap, rather than doing it at both nap times I'd just do it for nap 1 and leave nap 2 shorter as I think I mentioned in a previous post.  But just doing PUPD on it's own with the nap at a time which is not suitable is not really going to be helpful.
If you have already moved nap 1 15 mins later and if it has been 2-3 days of short morning naps then I would suggest moving another 15 mins - or post todays EASY times and I can have a look. Along with that, if you see a longer morning nap in your records but it was a day he EW then he likely still needs the nap moving.  Hope that makes sense.

Shame everything is not a set routine, would be very handy!

ha ha yes it would.
Honestly when you get a settled routine it feels predictable and kind of feels set even if it is not.  Yes there are changes when LO sleep needs change, naps are dropped and so on, but they are blips in the scheme of things and once the new routine is worked out it can all carry merrily along for another good while again.  Sleep needs and routines do change in the first couple of years.

[Henrys_Dad]

I dont think we’re getting the daytime routine right, he almost never does the 1hr.5 usually 30mins then screams for the remaining time, or an 1hr max with again the remaining time spent screaming.

My wife is concerned that he is getting sleepy from his feed before his nap rather than putting himself to sleep as he is meant to be learning with PU/PD.
As he usually wakes around 6 we do his bottle before his nap in the morning and always has a bottle before his last feed.

We have swimming on Fridays now at 11, so we’re going to try and tweak the routine to start at 9.30 and hopefully have 1hr then before swimming then in the afternoon have it at 2.30 rather than 3.

Night times are becoming more regular with basically 1 feed around 11/12 he is then going till around 5.30/6 well has the last few nights.

Its the daytime that is the issue, we’re thinking perhaps we messing around too much by not always doing PU/PD for the remaining time etc when really we should have been, its hard though as not sure if he would ever go down after over 30/40 of screaming.

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As I haven't seen your EASY it is a bit hard to suggest something, my gut feeling is that he is not tired enough for a longer nap.  You can move the milk feed to after nap if you think it is getting in the way.
Here's the guidance A times. I think your LO is 10 months now?  Mine would have been on 4+ hrs before first nap. His following A times were shorter.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

[Henrys_Dad]

Sorry i forgot, we started this the last few days; currently we are on...

Awake at 5.45/6 then a BF
Awake breakfast, play etc till..
9am wind down for a 9.30 bottle & PD (this one used to be 9.30 PD & 10). This one usually lasts 30min, still unsure whether to carry on with PU/PD for the remaining hour?)
11am till 2.30 awake and lunch, wind down from 2 for a 2.30 bottle & PD  (this one used to be 2.30 PD & 3)  (lasts on average an 1hr this one) PU/PD for the remaining 30mins.
4 till 6.30 awake and tea time, wind down and bath from 6.30/6.45 BT aiming for 7.30.

We’re both convinced he hasn't cracked putting himself to sleep during the day, either that or he is plain stubborn!

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Have you discussed which nap you want to have short and which long?
I'd previously thought you might go for long morning nap and short afternoon nap but it can be the other way around (especially if it fits better with swimming or other groups).  If you have chosen for a short morning nap then don't continue PUPD at the end of that nap, it's okay to be 30 - 60min.  I see you have moved that nap earlier but this will not help to increase the length of it, earlier can also encourage EW in the morning.  If you did morning nap 9.30 - 10 or 10 - 10.30 (30 min) or if it was a bit longer at 9.30 - 10.30 you can do the morning milk at 6am and leave the next milk until the end of the nap 10/10.30. This is 4-4.5hr between milk feeds which many LOs can do when they have solids coming between the milk feeds. if he cannot make it that long between milk I suggest moving the second milk to 9am so it is totally removed from the nap.

Again, removing the milk from the second nap wind down routine would be preferable.

You can try W2S on nap 2 (or both naps if you'd like to try to get nap 1 to 1hr rather than 30 min although it looks like it is coming a bit early for a long nap).  Here's info
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)

We’re both convinced he hasn't cracked putting himself to sleep during the day, either that or he is plain stubborn!

Is he going into the cot awake? Drowsy? Does he start to cry - when? Just before he nods off what are you doing ie holding for PU or hand on and stroking/patting/rocking or rocking the bed??

How is his mood on these shorter naps? You said he is waking happy, does he continue to be happy and well tempered most of the day or does he turn into grouchy baby after a while?

[Henrys_Dad]

Just to say thank you again for all your time and feed back! 

So yes we decided to go with a shorter morning nap but purely because of swimming - its a fixed time each Friday at 11am so we decided rather than throw his routine out each week we could tweak it so we bring his nap forward slightly to 9.30 and wake him at 10.30 (if he goes that long) and do the longer nap at 2.30pm until 4pm - with this are you saying you would advise that we should still leave this at 3pm?

To put him down for naps (my wife has been doing them all this week) she starts 30 mins prior to put down, reading etc and feeds him a bottle of milk.
He gets very sleepy on the bottle and even when she’s sits him up he still stays very sleepy / asleep she then transfers him to his cot and rubs his back for a few mins as he settles - he will stay asleep for around 30 mins and she has been going back in and rubbing his back at around the 30 min mark to help him go for longer, which she says does seem to be helping him go past the 30 min mark, however if he stirs before she rubs his back she has had less success keeping the nap going to has had to do PU/PD for the remainder.

Because of the very sleepy way he gets after his feed we had thought that we can feed him at the beginning of the 30 min wind down and then follow with books but would you still think after the nap is better?

His moods seem ok in the day, getting to the end of a 3.5 - 4hr stretch awake period he does lay his head onto us at times and seems like he is lagging abit on occasions, he may also get a little more frustrated if he wants to get to something he can’t / shouldn’t have but generally is quite a happy chap - may grumble a bit at mealtimes but nothing major and always eats it up even if he is a little fussy - we have put this down more to whether or not he is enjoying the food.

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Just to say thank you again for all your time and feed back! 

You're welcome.
I'm only sorry that you do not yet have a steady routine and I am aware that over this month and next LOs can begin to go through the 2-1 process which can throw routines out a bit too, just makes it harder to see what is best time wise for A times and S times etc.

From your description your DS appears to do fine on whatever nap length he gets, there doesn't appear at this point to be any clear signs of getting OT for instance.  With that in mind I'd probably go for the 9.30 nap and just get him up at the 30 min if he doesn't sleep longer. This way you can move the milk to 10pm (even 10.30pm is okay - don't know if I mentioned but even 5hr between milk feeds is okay at this age with solids coming between) and you should still make it for that swim class.

longer nap at 2.30pm until 4pm - with this are you saying you would advise that we should still leave this at 3pm?

No not later. I'd likely bring it earlier actually, especially if the first nap is going to be 30 mins.  Maybe 2pm which is 4 hrs A time from the previous nap.  That's a pretty long A time after a CN so he should manage a longer nap.

she starts 30 mins prior to put down, reading etc and feeds him a bottle of milk.
He gets very sleepy on the bottle and even when she’s sits him up he still stays very sleepy / asleep she then transfers him to his cot and rubs his back for a few mins as he settles

Going to have to break it to you - this is a feed to sleep prop, or very near.  If the milk is relied upon to help LO wind down and relax for sleep then it is linked to sleep.  My suggestion is to discontinue this approach, he is not learning to sleep independently this way.  Some LOs naps fall at a tricky time for the E times and because of this there can be a top up milk feed prior to a nap but it needs to be distinctly separate to avoid habit forming. If LO really needs to be fed prior to sleep I would do it in the family room, lights on and normal day time noise, then following feed change nappy, then up to bed to begin WD for sleep. Otherwise leave the E until after S.

he will stay asleep for around 30 mins and she has been going back in and rubbing his back at around the 30 min mark to help him go for longer, which she says does seem to be helping him go past the 30 min mark,

This is one of the W2S methods. I would probably hold off doing this for nap 1 for a little while but do it for nap 2. See if nap 2 can be a regular 1.5-2hrs.
Also, to avoid habit forming on this method it is useful to hold off every 4th day to see what happens, the idea is that LO learns to transition from one sleep cycle to the next alone rather than with help. Learning to go to sleep independently at the beginning of the nap also helps this ability to transition (ie drop the feed to sleep prop to ensure sleep training is moving to independence).

With the swimming - you will likely find he is super hungry after the class. Even if you have fed prior to swimming I would suggest taking an additional bottle of milk with you to offer immediately after - or have lunch there ready to hand over right away.  he is likely going to be more tired too so watch out for possibly needing an earlier nap on that day.

[Henrys_Dad]

Brilliant thank you for that, we feel a little more like we know what we're doing during the day..

• Ensure we feed him downstairs before we put him down, read after feed etc to relax him before nap; thus no danger of feeding him to sleep.
• 9.30 nap for an hour, if he wakes don't do PU/PD just get him up.
• 2pm nap (could this be  2.30 if he does actually sleep for an hour during the first nap?) a bottle and again avoid any possible feed to sleep.
• Awake till 6.30 where we start wind down bath, read bedtime etc aim for around 7.30 after all that.

I suppose one question would be would he need another nap between the 2pm and bedtime one? We're guessing not.

Regarding the W2S aspect on the 4th day i assume we wouldn't do that at all, just see if he wakes then do PU/PD as if he wakes up normally.

Thank you ever so much again

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2pm nap (could this be  2.30 if he does actually sleep for an hour during the first nap?) a bottle and again avoid any possible feed to sleep.

It could, maybe. however keep in mind that as the morning nap gets shorter as LO gets older and A times can extend, the afternoon nap will move earlier. The idea is that by the time the morning nap is dropped LO is doing a midday nap, not 2.30pm yes?

I suppose one question would be would he need another nap between the 2pm and bedtime one? We're guessing not.

No. Just 2 naps.  Only if the morning was 30 mins and then another rubbish 30 min nap at 2pm...then you'd need to consider options how to get through the rest of the day to BT. Either another CN (if he will do it, many won't) or EBT.

Regarding the W2S aspect on the 4th day i assume we wouldn't do that at all, just see if he wakes then do PU/PD as if he wakes up normally.

Yes that's right, you observe to see if he transitions alone. if he fully wakes you need to help him back to sleep with a hand on him, key phrase or PUPD.  Always the minimum you need to do but without being afraid to pick up and calm him down.

Hope this helps

[Henrys_Dad]

Thank you again

We’ve had tentative improvement on the naps the last couple of days, morning has gone from 30mins guaranteed wake up to 50mins and 1hr which is good.
Afternoon we’re still not getting a solid 1hr30 however, yesterday my wife actually managed to put him back off to sleep using PU/PD during a day nap, this has not happened before which is an improvement (probably since we’ve been actively always putting him down awake, not feeding him then putting down immediately after)

A couple of areas we’re not sure about...

Last night he slept from 7.30 with about 5mins fussing (not crying) till about 4am'ish... with only once a single cry and we think thats because he had managed to wedge himself crossways in the cot. A quick re-position and he was back off again till around 4ish, when we fed him but he only seemed to have an ounce and a bit.
Usually he wakes around 11ish and we feed him a bottle and he’ll have a good 6oz at least!

Now does this mean he’s ready not to have a feed during the night, or just a one off and we need to actively continue feeding him at least once? He seems fine with just having the one feed now anyway.

Oh and what age do they go down to 1 nap, surely a while off he still seems so little?

[Henrys_Dad]

I think we’ve answered our own question..

Night before last he woke around 11 and had about 6oz.
He then woke around for and we did PU/PD for an hour and a half with him getting very mad, he then had another 6oz.
We’re assuming he woke around 4 because he was still hungry and wouldn’t go off with PU/PD even though he did try a few times.

Last night we kept an eye on his day milk and then he went to bed from 7.30 till 5.30! No wake or need of feed it seems.

So we’re now thinking if he has enough during the day he seems fine during the night.

Now just to sort out waking around 5/5.30 and stretching that to near 6/6.30 as he’s still not having the 11hrs i think he needs at this age is that correct?
I’m assuming its not just a case of putting him to bed at 7?

[creations]

Hi
Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner. Been a bit short of time here. it's good to hear things are going well though

So we’re now thinking if he has enough during the day he seems fine during the night.

Yes this is key at this point really.  Sorry to ask this again as you might have told me already but is he exclusively formula fed now or still combination fed? It's only that whilst 'breast is best' and there are great benefits to LO getting breast milk, formula fed babies often drop the night feed much earlier. If you are combo feeding you might see a need to continue 1 feed in the night even with decent day feeds.  That's not to say anyone ought to move to exclusively formula feeding, it just helps to know so as to judge when the night feed can be dropped. I wouldn't imagine two night feeds being necessary though.

Now just to sort out waking around 5/5.30 and stretching that to near 6/6.30 as he’s still not having the 11hrs i think he needs at this age is that correct?
I’m assuming its not just a case of putting him to bed at 7?

11 hrs would be good yes.  Did he used to do 11-12hrs over night or has it always been on the shorter side?  Mine only did 10-11 hrs really, It was pretty useless trying to get anything else, it's just how he was.  Anything less than 10hrs is considered EW which would indicate looking at routine to see why. A couple of reasons for EW can be too much day sleep, or OT/OS, or the first nap coming too early.

Oh and what age do they go down to 1 nap, surely a while off he still seems so little?

Really quite variable.  Some drop to 1 nap at 11-12 months (mine) whilst some hang on to 2 naps until more like 18 months...and then there are a few even who drop to 1 nap even earlier than 11 months.

Working out the best, most suitable routine for an individual is a bit harder when LO has not previously been an independent sleeper, it gets easier when you know he is able to fall to sleep independently and self sooth at transitions, this kind of eliminates other options and helps us to see where A times, nap length and night length are working or need tweaking.

Although it has taken a bit longer than expected it does sound like you're making great progress with encouraging self soothing