About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?

[Henrys_Dad]

Thank you for much for help once again

We’re currently in the process of reducing the BF he’s now just on about one a day if the wife doesn’t find it too uncomfortable but they seem to be getting used to it.

Before we started PU/PD he usually did wake around 5.30/6ish never a lye in! But then again we usually tried to put him down around 7pm, then obviously woke on and off all night.

Tricky thing is that if he wakes currently around 4ish he would sleep past 6 if we didn’t wake him to keep to our routine of the day. 9.30am nap and 2pm nap.

I suppose you figure these things out by recording over a period of days.

[creations]

Sorry can you  update your current EASY times for me?
is it this:
WU 5.30
S nap 9.30 - 10/10.30 (30-60 min)
S nap 2 - 3.30 (1.5hr)
BT 7.30

and you would prefer morning WU to move to what time? 6? 7?
I might be able to suggest something

[Henrys_Dad]

Currently we ‘aim’ for.. but he usually wakes up before 6. If he wakes up before half 5 and we do PU/PD we think he could sleep past 6.

WU 6am
First Nap 9.30 - 10.30 (1hr)
Second Nap 2 - 3.30 (1.5hr)
BT 7.30

The combined naps is usually around 2hrs over the last 3/4 days, rarely get a full 1.5hr out of him.

Aiming for ideally 6/6.30 would be nice.

[creations]

Ok, so I remember you have a swim class to work in too.
How about if you started the first nap at 10am and capped at 30 mins (trial, for a few days or a week, if he ends up horribly OT you can shift it back to 9.30 and 1hr) - this should help to discourage the earlier waking and may also help to get nap 2 at the full length.
Leave BT where it is for now.
What do you think?

[Henrys_Dad]

Ok, so I remember you have a swim class to work in too.
How about if you started the first nap at 10am and capped at 30 mins (trial, for a few days or a week, if he ends up horribly OT you can shift it back to 9.30 and 1hr) - this should help to discourage the earlier waking and may also help to get nap 2 at the full length.
Leave BT where it is for now.
What do you think?

Yes thats defiantly worth trying i think, we’re going to see if we can get a night time routine going first. 3 nights in a row of 7.30 to 5.30 without wake ups so we’re enjoying that bit then try and tweak it later.

The only current issue is the second nap, can never seem to get anywhere near 1.30 he’ll wake around 40min/1hr so end up doing PU/PD for around 45mins and during that time never get close to him going off

Also after todays afternoon nap where he slept for about 32 mins and then woke started crying.. PU/PD almost worked after 10mins he then cried solid for 30/40mins and after had little spots on his face that weren’t there before the sleep! Enough to be noticeable could that be stress, dont want to put him through it if he’s actually getting too stressed by it?

He did nod off on the way back from Tesco in the car for literally 3/4mins around 12 o’clock; feel like perhaps we should have let him sleep a bit then rather than wake him up.

[creations]

Great nights!!!!!
Even if they are only 10 hours.  Mine only ever did around 10.5hrs. Always felt short tbh but it was his way.

OK - based on this - a new suggestion. I know you relatively recently moved that second nap earlier as a step towards the 2-1 transition, shortening nap 1 to gain on nap 2 but perhaps his ability to stay awake has stretch more than we expected. It was hard to know with your Lo what his natural A times were due to the previous holding to sleep prop for naps.  Now then - he sounds UT for nap 2 so I am suggesting moving this later again.
Instead of 2pm you can try 2.15 for a couple of days, then move again to 2.30 (which I think is where you were before), sleeping no later than 4pm.

For now leave BT at 7.30 unless there is huge refusal.

[Henrys_Dad]

Great nights!!!!!
Even if they are only 10 hours.  Mine only ever did around 10.5hrs. Always felt short tbh but it was his way.

OK - based on this - a new suggestion. I know you relatively recently moved that second nap earlier as a step towards the 2-1 transition, shortening nap 1 to gain on nap 2 but perhaps his ability to stay awake has stretch more than we expected. It was hard to know with your Lo what his natural A times were due to the previous holding to sleep prop for naps.  Now then - he sounds UT for nap 2 so I am suggesting moving this later again.
Instead of 2pm you can try 2.15 for a couple of days, then move again to 2.30 (which I think is where you were before), sleeping no later than 4pm.

For now leave BT at 7.30 unless there is huge refusal.

Thank you for that, we had actually discussed having his afternoon nap later and will try 2.15 tomorrow.

Today was a nightmare, he woke at 4 this morning being wet, changed and fed him a small amount he then went off till 7.20 (we slept through the 6 alarm). Kind of indicated he could make it to the 6 am on his own rather than waking around 5.30 every day!

Anyway the whole routine was out today and he ended up only having 1hr, i’m sure he’ll be find tonight!!!!! :S

We’re not 100% convinced that after he has tried and failed to sleep during the day that PU/PD actually works, he progressively gets worse and worse more and more worked up, so think we’re going to try for a little shorter time. He usually gives it a go to nod off, goes quite etc but if it doesn’t happen that time then it doesn’t seem to happen at all

[creations]

It sounds like he is UT for the naps if PUPD is not helping and he is unable to get back to sleep. The slightly longer time between nap 1 and 2 should hopefully help with that.

Are you putting him down for sleep independently now?  Are you able to leave the room with him awake and he goes to sleep for naps? And night?

[Henrys_Dad]

It sounds like he is UT for the naps if PUPD is not helping and he is unable to get back to sleep. The slightly longer time between nap 1 and 2 should hopefully help with that.

Are you putting him down for sleep independently now?  Are you able to leave the room with him awake and he goes to sleep for naps? And night?

Err no not really, we still have to have a hand on him with the odd back rub and reassuring words... to be honest we’ve not tried otherwise. Night time and the first nap of the day are the easiest to go down, he seems to welcome it and settle quite quickly. Might have the odd time where he cannot get comfy and we re-position him, but usually will get him off after 5min or so.

[creations]

OK, it sounds like you need to start to wean that hand on him. He is going to sleep better overall when he is not reliant on you - yes he needs a wind down and preparation for sleep, reassurance that it is sleep time, but after that it needs to move towards leaving the room.
I would take it in small but rapid steps, keep your eye on the goal.
Reduce the amount of pressure and rubbing - if he is fussing increase but decrease again as soon as he calms or do a little rub, stop, rub stop, where you are leaving your hand on but giving him little stops between...then increase the stops so they are a bit longer, less rhythmical
...then lift your hand off him, replace it with less pressure, use more pressure if needed but reduce again.
You really want to have hands off before he goes to sleep and as a guide I'd say this is doable within a few days for well timed sleeps (so for now nap 1 and night, if the other nap needs a little more help then do so - the increase A time should help on this).

In a short time you need to think about saying "sleep well, call if you need me" and leave the room.
My thoughts on this are always to be quite clear with the speech and not to hide that you are leaving.  With some LOs a slow gradual withdrawal is needed but I wouldn't bother with this unless you have evidence it's really needed.  To me it is key that your LO knows you are leaving (you are not creeping away, if he wakes up he will not be shocked or scared that you are gone because he knows you have gone) and also key that you will return when he calls for you.

Being still with him for PD at this point after several weeks is likely preventing that final step towards independence. If he relies on you for nodding off he will find it harder to sleep longer and transition from one cycle to another alone.

Keep your goal in mind so that you keep moving forward, this shouldn't take long if you keep moving forward on it.  Always increase if help is needed but don't stay at that level, reduce reduce reduce.

[Henrys_Dad]

Thank you.

Perhaps thats why he’s struggling with day naps?

Even when we bopped him lots he always slept better at night, so know he sleeps long stretches at night (sometimes 10).
I think the starting to just put him down with less rubbing/hands on on his morning nap and nighttime these are the 2 where he usually goes off easiest. Afternoon nap is generally just a nightmare tbh.

[creations]

Afternoon nap is generally just a nightmare tbh.

Sorry to hear that - have you moved it back to 2.30pm?  Did it have any effect?
I am assuming he is awake from 10.30am to 2.30pm which is 4 hrs...does he appear UT to you?

[Henrys_Dad]

Sorry to hear that - have you moved it back to 2.30pm?  Did it have any effect?
I am assuming he is awake from 10.30am to 2.30pm which is 4 hrs...does he appear UT to you?

We've kind of got a little method/routine going.

We still aim for 9.30 morning nap, but if he seems too awake we carry on with the wind down a few more books etc and then try.
Similar to that of the afternoon nap that we've move to 2.30, if he doesn't seem too sleepy we'll continue reading etc.

Morning nap if he makes it past 30mins we're leaving him as long as possible (max 1.30) we decided to do this as the afternoon nap was becoming a fight. Vice versa with the afternoon, if he's had a bad morning nap we leave as long as possible with the afternoon.

One change we've made is that if he wakes during the nap we're not doing PU/PD for longer than 20mins, he just gets too mad and has never gone back to sleep after this time.

Doing the above he's been getting on average over 2hrs a day this week, which is a lot better.

We've also been trying to do less touching and rubbing as you've suggested we also think that we actually annoy him doing it! Well certainly when he is relaxed and ready for sleep anyway, when he is stubborn during the day we might have to do a bit more. But certainly more excepting of doing it on his own!

[creations]

Sounds like you are moving in the right direction   It's quite an improvement from where you started isn't it?

I totally understand wanting to let him sleep longer for that morning nap if the afternoon nap is unpredictable, I just want to mention a few things so that you are aware:
- longer morning nap, especially a long nap, especially coming quite early in the day, can lead to EW.  If WU time gets earlier I suggest you look at this.
- having less consistency in the routine leads to less consistency in the routine - ie to encourage a long afternoon nap the morning nap needs to be short if you want to get to a place where the full day (and night) is predictable
- having a long morning nap is a great routine for many LOs (followed by a CN in the afternoon) but if you are unable to do it every day it can go off track on a weekly basis.  Waking him in the morning to get to swimming class on 1 day only can lead to 3 or 4 days getting back on track...by which time you only have a couple of days consistency before again waking him for the next weeks swim class.  Some LOs can get back on track much faster so it depends how you observe things over time.
- a shorter afternoon nap could impact on the A time before BT and if too long may lead to OT at BT or the need for early BT which in turn could lead to an earlier wake up.

So if you observe any of those things you will know you need to re-think the routine.

WRT extending the WD with books this can be a great way to add a bit for A time before the nap but also be aware for some it can be over stimulating too close to nap time. Again it's just something to keep in mind.

We've also been trying to do less touching and rubbing as you've suggested we also think that we actually annoy him doing it!

ha ha, he will be telling you to get out of the room next!  How about settle him down and leave now, just say "have a nice sleep, call if you need me" and go.  You can always sit outside the room if you want to so that you are close for a return if needed.
it can feel quite strange when LO starts to self sooth and be more independent for sleep, almost as though you are not needed any more. He does still need you and always will.

[Henrys_Dad]

Thank you for those and sorry for the late response, your help has been invaluable as we try and sort him out.

A little update, Henry is now sleeping regularly 7.30 till 6 and we often have to wake him at 6... so perhaps could go longer but would upset the routine.

Daytime is less regular, sometimes sleeps 1hr in the morning and a random time in the afternoon. But he is averaging around 2hrs a day i would say.

Putting him down has progressed as well, we now put him down and dont touch him at all as we think this actually annoys him. We site on a chair next to the cot and whisper his sleepy words and he eventually goes off. This actually works better during the day than at night, might take 5/10 mins of squirming rather than none at all during the day.

Either way less crying about being put down.

One interesting development and we’re not sure if he is just trying it on, he has decided that he wont go to sleep in the afternoon nap then the following morning nap (nighttime unaffected) could this mean he’s not tired and perhaps only needs 1 nap during the day?

Another interesting aspect is that regardless of how much sleep he gets during the day (odd time only 30 mins) he manages to sleep fine at night (touch wood), which i find strange as surely sometimes he is over tired?