Bedtime for 14.5mo

[labrodyk]

Hi ladies!

I've been going around in circles for months but AJ is finally able to get to around 11.30am for her nap. I'm not sure what time she wakes as she quietly sucks her thumb and we get her out of bed between 7 and 7.30am.  She's been napping around 2 (sometimes 2.5 hours) and on occasion only 1hr20min. I've been aiming for a 7pm bedtime but the time it takes her to fall asleep is considerable. On a good night it's 20 minutes, others 30minutes and recently it's been exhaustion by 7pm and she looks like she's drifting off, only to get a second wind whilst in bed and be awake for over an hour. She does have a tendency to scream when I put her down at night (same at nap time but this is decreasing) and i've wondered why she does this.

I'm aiming for 5hrs A time before bed, but would you recommend I put her in bed at say 4.5hr A to be asleep by 7? Not sure how best to approach it and allow her to sleep well.

Nap today was only 11.35-1.10, what is the best way to deal with short naps. PD at 6 and hope for the best or PD at 5.30 and hope she's asleep by 6pm?
I ended up putting her in bed at 6.20pm which she screamed at me for leaving the room, was brief, but she still didn't fall completely asleep until 6.50pm or 7pm at the latest. It doesn't seem to make much of a difference when I PD, it still takes her a while...

Thank you!

[creations]

Hi
How long has it been that she is going for her nap at 11.30am? Is it a few days or more like a few weeks?
Just wondering if she might do better with a slightly later nap time to help that nap reach 2hrs every day and keep her better rested.
The fussing at nap could be a touch UT.  The fussing and second wind at BT though, well I can see it could be either UT (in which case I'd just move BT a bit later so there is less fuss) or a touch OT because she is sometimes having these short naps.  Whether UT or OT I'd aim for a set BT really, LOs this age seem to do better with a set time, so I'd just start where you think is roughly right and do that time every night and see how it goes - you can always move the "set" time to a bit earlier or later depending how things pan out.

[labrodyk]

Hi creations! You've helped me so much the last few years with my older son and now Audrey. Really appreciate it.

I can't tell you how long it's taken us to reach this point. I feel like we have been in the 2-1 for months but only this past week has she pulled some long naps. So I'd say a week, the first few days she did almost 2.5hrs. She is restless during her naps though and rolls around a LOT sucking her thumb so hopefully it is somewhat restorative. I thought that today,  perhaps I need a change in routine but having only really pushed through with 1 nap for a little over a week, I was hesitant.  How much should I move the nap time and would I give lunch before or after? I've been offering a large snack.

She's also cutting 4 molars, points of each tooth have broken the skin but they're not entirely through. I've been medicating before nap time.

Set bedtime is probably where I need to get to but not sure how I go about doing that. 7pm doesn't seem unreasonable, I just hate her being OT, especially after a short nap.

[creations]

Hmm..if she's only really been settled on this routine a week I am not sure I would change it much. Perhaps 10 mins later on the nap just to see what happens?  If she OT wakes at 20/30 mins though you'll need to put some time in to make her go back to sleep as she won't last all day on that.  It sounds like you need this nap at least 2hrs to get her through the day.
I also wonder if a bit of an earlier BT might help. Maybe more like 6.30pm - what length nights has she usually done?

Those teeth will certainly be disturbing her to it is hard to tell what's needed in the routine - it's always like this though, so many things happen at once, if only we could deal with them one at a time!

As for lunch, just fit in in anywhere you can.  Many do split lunches half before nap and half after. Mine had a huge "snack" (substantial) at 10.30/11 for a good while although I forget exactly what age that was at.

What do you think? nap at 11.40 instead of 11.30, and a 6.30pm BT?  It's just a suggestion of somewhere to start really.
Also those naps shorter than 2hrs - any chance you can resettle them?

[labrodyk]

Is that asleep by 11.40 and 6.30, or PD at those times?

I'll squeeze a large snack in there somewhere as per what we've been doing, I might try a bit of savoury lunch just to make sure she's truly full.

Resettling hasn't been our strong suit. Mainly because she doesn't wake up crying, she just sucks her thumb. If she is going to short nap it will be 40 minutes or 1hour20minutes. She doesn't cry out but chat and then roll around sucking her thumb seemingly trying to resettle. If I go in to her it's game over! Jumps up and runs around the cot. She very rarely does an OT short nap and can't fall back to sleep eventually herself (having said that now, she will likely do that today 😂).
If there are any suggestions of how to resettle I can definitely try...
Car trips she will always short nap so that makes this 1 nap routine pretty disastrous if we need to go anywhere because she's not one to fall asleep early in the car anymore.

Today turned out like this;
WU: ?
Nap: 11.30; asleep 11.35! - 1.58.
^ She was positively miserable all morning. Would not stop crying so I didn't get the opportunity to extend much further than usual. Not sure of her WU but she also randomly slept solidly for the first 1hr20min and then sucked her thumb for the remainder of the nap.
BT: 6.30; screamed on PD. Asleep 7.10pm.

[creations]

Is that asleep by 11.40 and 6.30, or PD at those times?

If she is usually asleep at 11.30 then it's to be asleep by 11.40 instead, just an extra 10 (or 15) mins A time.  Same at BT, asleep at 6.30pm.
It looks like she is getting two sleep cycles in the nap of 1hr 20 which is not enough for her, this is also what my DS did when UT.  Adding an extra bit of time on could help her be just that bit more tired, tired enough to transition to the third cycle and get 2hrs instead of 1hr 20.  The 2hrs made all the difference for us, it helps get through enough hours in the day and he was properly rested.
I'm cautious to suggest adding a lot of A on though as you've only been at 11.30 for a short while...but sometimes you just have to guess and try, if she can get that third sleep cycle then it's worth it.

She doesn't cry out but chat and then roll around sucking her thumb seemingly trying to resettle. If I go in to her it's game over! Jumps up and runs around the cot.

This sounds like UT behaviour.  She is somewhat tired and kind of wants to go back to sleep but can't and then prefers to get up and play rather than keep trying.  If my guess is right the extra 10 mins or so will prevent her waking at all and then she doesn't have to try to get back to sleep.

If there are any suggestions of how to resettle I can definitely try...

If she is usually able to settle herself from an OT nap and just go back to sleep then you don't need to resettle.
With mine, when he dropped to one nap, I had to "tell" him to sleep as he had horrible 20 min naps and woke every 20 mins throughout his 2hr nap. He would have been happier (for a short while)if I'd got him up but knowing he wouldn't go for a second nap later in the day meant I absolutely had to stick it out and "make" him sleep. it wasn't particularly pretty during that phase. I then worked out I could W2S every 20 mins and he didn't fully wake and scream, the W2S with my hand on him helped him to resettle/stay asleep. I only went in for about 1-2 min and back out the room again, it was very fast but vital at that time.  If her naps doesn't lengthen with the slightly later nap you could try this, creep in when she is still asleep and put a hand on her or be ready, hovering with your hand just above her for the first sign of transition/waking and pat/rub/stroke/sooth her through to the next cycle.  You'd probably need to go in at 1hr 30 or 1hr 35 to be ready and so as not to disturb her. 

[labrodyk]

Thank you Creations!

So today I counted that as a proper 2hr+ nap but after PD at 6.30 she wasn't asleep until 7.10. Should I have aimed for 6pm bed to be asleep by 6.30?

[creations]

Should I have aimed for 6pm bed to be asleep by 6.30?

Not necessarily.
It's hard to tell from your EASYs just yet when her ideal BT would be.
On the shorter nap she seemed OT by 7pm and got a second wind. But this refusal at 6.30 after a good nap could be a touch of UT.  On the other hand if it always takes her 30+ mins to fall to sleep and she usually fusses at BT then if could just be her temperament.
How about for now put down at 6.30 and see what happens over a few days?  If after a few days she is napping well and refusing BT then maybe move it a touch later and see if her fussing reduces.  What do you think?

[labrodyk]

I'll stick with it a few days and come back and see what you think

Thank you so much!

[creations]

You're welcome

[labrodyk]

Hi Creations!
ive been doing my best but worried I'm missing something. Last 2 days of naps have been super short and disrupted mid nap... Today in particular she was quite tired and yawning from 9am. I can't see how she is UT. Mornings and afternoons are getting quite hard on all of us too.

Wednesday 21-Dec
WU: 7.13 (12hrs!)
Nap: 11.38 PD; 11.44-1.20.
BT: 6.00; 6.20 practically asleep then seemed to wake up - chatting/squealing. Asleep 6.40.

Thursday 22-Dec
WU: 6.30-7.00? OOB at 7.00
Nap: 11.35 PD; 11.44-11.26, 12.30-1.10. Got her up at 2.00pm
^^ how can I resettle if she's awake, sitting and standing up?
BT: 6.00 PD; 6.50 asleep
^ fussed when I put her down and screamed when I left the room.  I gave nurofen as I was giving a cuddle before putting in cot as she's been drooling terribly all day.

[creations]

If she's doing a good 12 hr night she could be showing tired signs in the morning due to being well-slept. I know it sounds crazy but well rested LOs can yawn and rub their eyes like they are sleepy.  Do you remember what a lie in feels like?  I used to look and feel more tired after a long lie than I did if I got up early (pre baby obviously! ha)

She's getting a better night sleep so she might well need a slightly later nap.  When she was refusing BT (possibly OT) and then having a NW of an hour or so she was missing that sleep. If she is now getting that sleep then she might be UT for the nap.  I would move it another 10-15 mins later.  Say 12 noon.
I think I'd be tempted to put down for BT a touch later too. Maybe down at 6.30 for a 7pm sleep?
So:
WU ? 6-7am
S 12 - 2
BT 6.30/7

Don't forget those teeth can really disturb naps and nights too. Getting a decent night is a real bonus really. When they cut you might see lots of NWs which might appear like OT but can turn out not to be routine linked.  Maybe try some meds 20 mins before nap time.

[labrodyk]

Thank you Creations! I'll try again tomorrow to be asleep by 12 noon. I've been medicating before naps so will keep doing so, I haven't seen so much saliva since she was tiny. Her shirts and dribble bibs are completely drenched.

Will aim for 6.30 PD too, she just seemed so tired!  I only put down at 6 because I was worried she was OT.

The NW'S you mention, are they from teeth once they've cut? Do I just wait for those to pass??

[labrodyk]

Today was a very short nap

WU: 6.55
Nap: 11.53 PD; 12.00-1.10 asleep. Stirred after 35 minutes but settled. OOB at 2.00.
BT: 6.25; 7.00 asleep

She was very tired before and after nap and screamed at me when I put in bed and left the room...

[creations]

Some LOs seem to teeth without pain and the teeth just pop out and the first parents know is that they see them.  Mine was not like that though and I think most get some sort of pain.  For us there was general disturbance (yes NWs) when teeth were on the move. The sort of disturbance which was helped with some pre-BT meds and going to him to help him settle again in the night.  The actual cutting, when they break through the gum, that was on a whole different level, that would be absolute screaming and up half the night, meds didn't seem to touch it although I did give pre-BT meds and saved a dose for the night too (we used paracetamol and ibuprofen, timing each and writing down what I gave and when to keep track). The cutting nights were so bad I even brought him back out of his bedroom and back downstairs which has only happened maybe 6 times in his entire life.  Literally finding anything to give him some comfort, we watched pre-recorded kids TV and cuddled in a dim room to try to take his mind off the pain and get him sleepy again. Letting kids watch TV after BT is *not* something I would do lightly, yk?  For us it would be about 3 nights of hell, then slightly better again as the teeth finished cutting and were only moving, so back to lower level disturbance.
We had teeth moving and cutting the whole way through the second year. Certainly I know other people who have had pretty much the same, and others who have not had anywhere near this level of disturbance, I think it just depends on the LO.