OT or UT? I can't tell anymore.

[chauncycay]

Hi ladies, after two years of reading tons of posts and trying to help my DD sleep, I need help deciphering what we have going on now. We've had a month here and there with success along the way. Month 7 after all prop removal and PU/PD for 9 days for hours... ended in blissful peaceful sleep for us all for two months, then came crawling, and immediately walking and then a string of things. Generally if anything is off/new, she's not going to STTN (teeth, sick, daylight savings, school's out, birthdays, holidays, etc.) We feel trapped in a routine, and maybe it's not working. Maybe it's a new year time to tweak?

I can't tell if she's OT or UT and were likely in a loop. Once we can define it I can come up with a new plan.

I'm pretty sure it's OT. She almost always wakes grumpy.
She's been LSN, even the pediatrician thinks so and we give her melatonin nightly, 1 MG, per the pediatrician.
She usually sleeps 10-11 hours at night with one or two WU, if with the first couple of hours I know it's OT, but it's lately been right in the middle (2am last night for an hour of WI/WO, she asks for food, toys, different pants, hugs, kisses on imaginary ouchies, you name it.) Then she's up by 5-5:30a. Nap is usually 1p but fluctuates if she's up super early, or a lot. We try not before noon or the day is a mess. She only ever naps an hour and maybe 15 minutes - max. This is totally consistent. I've also tried the APOP cat nap before 9am on bad mornings to get us to the normal 1p nap. This no longer works. She'll nap like a champ in the car, and I'll have to wake her at 30 minutes, and then an hour and a half screaming match for regular nap that doesn't happen. Disaster. I can try that again next time and cap it at 20 minutes.
Longest nap in history (outside of very ill) was 2.5 hours. We didn't know what to do! :-) that was on a run of good STTN and lots of morning activity.

BT is 7p. I keep trying earlier but it's hard to get home, eat, WD bath and bed in less than 2 hours! We're getting her in her crib by 6:45p right now and she's usually down in 15-20 minutes.
If it's chronic OT we'll have to routine tweak and get her down earlier for a week or so? Is that right?
She definitely is highly active and a chatterbox (naturally...) Goes down singing and talking and wakes up screaming/talking/singing.
She has been waking talking "hey mommy, hey mommy, I all done sleeping! I want out now please!" She doesn't get as upset if I *immediately* respond, no potty break for mommy and the hallway between our bedrooms is about 10 ft long so we're talking 90 seconds max.
I think it's mostly the remaining push of the canines, the second year molars starting and a little OT. But I'm questioning the OT, since she's consistently been high energy and LSN. Whatever it is, she's clearly not an independent sleeper and it's time to help her get there. I keep thinking we're close! I'm trying WI/WO and gradual withdrawal. A bit of a mess to remove her dependence on sleeping on me while sick 7 weeks ago... Ugh.

What does UT look like and what do you do? (More playground I'm guessing! :-) :-) :-))

She does awesome on days when she's in half day care in the a.m. and then we spend another 2 hours at the playground and walking, no stroller for this one!
She's hilarious, and usually very healthy. We're very lucky, just exhausted & a bit grumpy... ;p

[Scottishmummy]

Hi again!

I am still a little fuzzy from illness and holidays.  To help us, could you remind me how old she is now & write her typical routine (or last few days if it varies) in this format:

Wu: (time)
Nap: (start - end time)
BT: (time in bed and time asleep if that is much different)
NWs (time ans for how long)

Thank you & Happy New Year!

[chauncycay]

Yes thank you!
DD: Spirited! Angel
Will be 26 mo tomorrow

Best recent days month 23:
WU: 6am
Nap: 12:30/1 - 1:45/2:15 (1 hour and a few minutes, typically)
BT: 7pm (asleep by 7:15- 7-25p)
NW: none, but sometimes EW 5:15-5:30a and this is where she'd sleep/rest on me until candle on at 6:15a

Since canines/dst/birthday/sick/separation anxiety/school out for holidays:
WU:5:30 (as early as 5am) to 6:30, depending on last NW
Nap:11:30-1:30 (start, takes up to two hours to settle, can't figure out a time with the EW/NW) naps for an hour max, sometimes 40 minutes, sometimes APOP car if it takes too long.
BT 7
NW 2-3, all over the map. Then EW.

[chauncycay]

Yesterday was:
WU 5:08a (sleepy words to no avail, stay in her room until candle on at 6:15)
Nap: started 12:20p, sleep at 1:05-1:45p (40 min, OT nap)
BT: 6:35p, asleep by 6:48p
NW: 2:20a (5 minutes, shh at door)
4:25a (15 minutes wi/wo)
WU: 5:10am

[Scottishmummy]

Thank you for that. Just had a look back at your last thread and we thought those NWs were from OT build up from long NWs. Look like the WI/WO reduced the length of the waking but they still happen, combined with EW, which suggests she caught up on sleep deficit she had from long NWs and is now UT.

Sounds like it could be the start of the 1-0 transition, especially with her fighting the nap, taking ages to settle and then EW. She's a little young but it's possible if she's a spirited one. I know a few LOs IRL who dropped the gap by 30mo. Here's the link about it again:
The 1-0 transition...Advice and Tips to help you through.

I think with the EW I would try a set nap, starting no earlier than 1pm and push it later by around 15mins every 2-3 days until she is falling asleep more easily. You may find you also need to start capping it if you start getting BT refusal with a later nap. I remember my DS started the 1-0 by messing around at naptime. I stopped trying to force him to sleep at his usual 1pm, let him play longer and then tried him at 1.30 and he went to sleep easily...for about a month until he started messing and pushed it to 2pm, then 2.30. As it got later we capped it so he wasn't sleeping too late into the afternoon, but your DD's nap is quite short already so just see how you get in with a later one.

[chauncycay]

AH HA! Ok, that makes sense. Thank you!
Yesterday her nap which was 1:05p-1:45p (took her 45 minutes to settle but was peaceful as long as I stayed in there on the floor).
We had two playdates after nap and lots of activity & early dinner. Then everyone left by 5:30p and she was in bed by 6:30, asleep by 6:45p.
NW: 10:20p, midnight, easy to settle with WI/WO.
EW 5:15 (giant thunderstorm!) but I went in and said sleepy words and she laid back down and slept until right before the candle ~6:10am. I stayed on the floor from 5:15am since the thunder was super loud (noise doesn't seem to phase her) and the lightening was pretty crazy. She got a little confused for a minute and thought the candle was on :-)
I'm back to work today so DH will be on duty easing us back to normal schedule and school starts back up for her tomorrow.
School is 9-1:30p weekdays and we'd been picking her up early so she didn't crash/OT. He's planning to pick get up at 12:30p so that puts us at a close to 1p nap by the time they get home, change and have a snack/milk.
He's shooting for a 12:45pm nap today.
Hopefully with school back that will help get her wiggles out and we'll all have more energy to wear her out before bed.
We'll hold on to the nap as long as possible and just keep easing it out to the afternoon. It's already the shortest! :-)
We have a history of holding on to routines/schedules too long so this is a good reminder.
Thank you ever so much and I hope you get healthy soon for this new year!
I'll report back... :-)

[Scottishmummy]

Good luck! And yes school might tire her out more so you might see an improvement in her sleep anyway when she starts back.

[chauncycay]

40 minute nap yesterday.
BT 6:45p in crib, asleep right around 7p
NW bad - early 8-9:30p up and down.
EW 5am, kept her in crib and calm-ish, singing... until candel 6:15am

and then today's nap... noon start.
2 HOURS AND 10 MINUTES!!!!
Longest nap in history!

We're dumbfounded. 
BT 7p then?  Any changes?  I'm petrified of screwing this up!

[Scottishmummy]

Sorry just seen this, how did BT and night go after that mega nap?

[chauncycay]

We're in shock!
BT 6:50, despite her recent complete meltdown on getting into pjs... Asleep by 7:15p
She kept coughing every couple of hours due to allergies we think   I kept looking at the monitor but she figured it out each time.
STTN!!!!!
WU 6:05 :-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Easy to hug, sit until candle on at 6:15am and I made a big happy dance about it. Lots of giggles :-)
So I guess we keep BT at 7 ish?

I haven't checked on nap today as it was her first day back to school and I'm still at the office. About to leave. Fingers crossed!

[Scottishmummy]

Wow, great night! Hope today/tonight goes well too.

[chauncycay]

Nap yesterday was a mess apparently, 30 minutes, then dh let her sleep on him in the chair for another 45 minutes (((

but last night BT 6:50p and asleep by 7:15p easy-ish, except extreme resistance to socks (*sigh).
NW 1:45 a.m. asking for socks... Seriously. Quick socks on, sleepy words out and she was down in 5 minutes.
4:47 a.m. Quick WI/WO
Then sleepy until after the candle on at 6:17!!!!!
Super sweet and happy!
We danced and sang  :-) :-) :-)
Almost there... And no coughing last night. Whew!
I now swear by homemade Elderberry syrup.

[Scottishmummy]

I need to get us some of that syrup, we're all coldy here!

Glad the nights are better. Funny that her naps are so variable now.  Could you keep note of what she does for a few days to see if we can see a pattern?

[chauncycay]

With school starting this week we're hoping to get back to a good routine. School is Monday - Thursday and we started a dance class with two friends on Friday mornings. DH is primary daytime/naps during the week. I'm on night duty and weekends we share. She usually wants me all weekend and he's ready for a break :-) I've done all of the nighttime sleep training only Tracey's methods.

Goal is sleep 7:15p to 6:15a (candle turns on) if we ever get here regularly I'd shift out 7:30p - 6:30a (& let her sleep later if she ever would!)
BT 7ish, takes her normally 15-20 minutes to settle, usually easy
Lots of nw/ew forever it seems.
Naps are all over the place. Set at 12:30p a while back (last summer, before school started).

School pickup is 1:30p, but dh gets her around 1p latest so she's not waiting too long for nap and becoming a mess.
She's usually pretty worn out so he doesn't have much wind down, finish lunch, usually a little walk with milk, calming, then back in the house, and off to bed.
It's too cold to walk yesterday/today so we read a couple of books with milk (BT routine).

Tuesday, 1/3
EW 5am
N noon-2:10p (MEGA!!!)
BT 6:50p

Wednesday, 1/4 (first day back at school after winter break)
WU 6:05! :-) :-) :-)
N 1:15p, 30 minutes, super cranky, dh let her sleep on him 45 minutes more
BT 6:50p
NW 1:45am, 4:47am

Thursday, 1/5
WU 6:17
N 1:30-2:45p (great!)
BT 6:45p

Friday, 1/6 (first day of dance class, super excited...)
EW 4:30 (((( no resetting, calm ish
N started at noon.... Dh had to walk out she was insane, running around in crib, banging head on wall, singing... I did WI/WO around 1p and she went down
1-2:20p
BT 6:50

Saturday, 1/7
EW 5:15am, WI/WO, 6:17! :-)
N 1:50-2:30p (took way too long to settle, wouldn't let me leave her room, super cold out, stuck in house, didn't go into her room until 12:45p, lots of excuses...)
BT 6:45p

DH thinks 12:30p is her sweet spot for nap start. He's the nap expert for her!

[Scottishmummy]

DH thinks 12:30p is her sweet spot for nap start. He's the nap expert for her!

That's interesting...because none of her naps in the week above seem to have started then!

It's tricky to see what's happening as she's very variable.  I'd try to stick to starting nap at the same time as consistently as possible, regardless of wake time and monitor how she gets on.  I appreciate that 12.30 used to work well & may still be sweet spot, but it sounds like 12.30 is really tricky now she's at school 4mornings. Could you & your DH agree another time to try?

[chauncycay]

Ok thank you! I'm beginning to think I'm crazy
She STTN last night!
BT 6:45p, asleep before 7p
WU 6:30 a.m.!!!!!
She was so easy and happy!
Fantastic morning, breakfast with family, then we dropped off a present at a neighbors and had a mini hour play date, home at noon.
Too cold so wind down inside with books/milk. In crib 12:45p (she didn't seem sleepy at all but knew it was naptime.
Very upset to get in her crib, I stayed for a bit, tried to leave, no luck, sat near door, then laid down, nothing helped her settle.
She was singing, asking for everything, then pooped. Diaper change and I got her back in crib, very upset. Asked her to just rest a bit.
2:15p she started throwing everything out of her crib.
DH came in and took her in the car. Asleep in 5 mins.

Extremely frustrating.
What time would you recommend we start?
It's taking forever unless we hit her magic spot for the day which seems to be a moving target.
She was asking for the candle at nap. Since that's working at night but it's too dim to see during the day I was thinking of getting a glo clock for nap. It's too bright and distracting for nighttime. Her room is pitch black at night, but during the day the blackout curtains still let in some light. We've tried everything short of aluminum foil on the windows to make it darker!
So frustrating. We don't care if she naps, but she clearly still nerds it and I can't mess up the progress we're *finally* barely making at night. I'm beyond exhausted after over two years of this (((((

[chauncycay]

We both just feel like we waste half the day stressing out about her nap. It's ruining what should have been a great Sunday
So upset. Best night sleep ever, and now it's all messed up.
I feel like it's my fault. Ugh.

[Scottishmummy]

Please don't beat yourself up.  It's a tricky transition and not your fault if she sleeps or not.  It's a guessing game at this stage.

Looking at your last few days, maybe start with 1.15 to be asleep by 1.30?

If that doesn't work you can always try something else after a few days.

[chauncycay]

Thank you :-)
Does the glo clock sound like a good idea or wait a bit?
I think a set nap is best. I think the 12:30p was our last set nap that got us through the 2-1 transition. That's probably what's stuck in our brains. ;p
We'll shift to 1:15p, works better with school anyway.

[Scottishmummy]

Personally I wouldn't bother with a friend clock just for naps.  Usually they are over when they are over, Yk?

[chauncycay]

You're right. Ugh. She's rough going down and NW tonight. Just hoping the STTN wasn't a one time.