How to stop nursing to sleep (14 week old)?

[sophsk22]

Hi,

I've posted before about my daughter, who has never really been one for daytime naps, and was dreadful in the early weeks at night, she just wanted to be held. She now sleeps pretty well at night for the most part, she wakes once or twice for a feed but I can put her back down awake and generally she just goes back off to sleep on her own. Naps and bedtime itself however are a totally different issue. She screams when she's put down. I've tried various awake times in case she was under tired or over tired, but it doesn't really make a difference. She doesn't always fall asleep feeding, actually rarely during the day. And at bedtime she will generally only feed to sleep once she's worked herself up a bit after I've put her down initially.

I know all the theories of putting them down drowsy but not asleep etc, but she pretty quickly wakes herself back up and the screaming commences when I try that. I'm not getting anywhere with shush pat. Picking her up and shushing calms her, but the minute she's put back down it's back to screaming.

She had been going to sleep for naps ok. Just a bit of complaining and some sucking on the dummy and she'd eventually go off. The last week or so however she's completely been fighting it, she won't take the dummy and the grumbling escalates to screaming pretty quickly. If she's really tired I can then feed her to sleep just to try and get some sleep in, and she'll also go off in the buggy. I can feel that I'm starting to build bad habits with naps, which is so frustrating because she was doing ok with them, so I really want to find a solution sooner rather than later.

I've also got a two year old, so extensive shushing etc isn't really that practical, even if I did think it would work (which it really hasn't when I have tried it!).

Any advice or suggestions? I've been trying an hour and twenty ish awake time recently, when she has done ok that seems to be about right, but to be honest naps during the day are so bad at the moment there's not much point me trying to post our easy for you!

Thanks on advance!

[Buntybear]

Hello, sorry your post has been missed - I shall bump and ask for some help xx

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun, a few questions. Has your LO ever really gone to sleep consistently by herself? Secondly, are there any props (rocking, paci, feed to sleep) that exist? Lastly could you possibly post your routine in the EASY format so we could take a peak?

[sophsk22]

Hi,

Yes, sure did used to go to sleep by herself, just not anymore! She was never very happy about it, always cried but it was more complaining than anything and she would reluctantly take a dummy briefly which helped. There aren't really any consistent props. As I say, she now wants to be fed to sleep, but that's always after I've put her down, she works herself up and that's the only thing that will calm her now. She generally goes off well in the buggy, but always cries to begin with then too, she just settles with the movement eventually.

Posting an easy seems a bit meaningless at this point because it's so inconsistent due to the nap issues. Yesterday for example...

Wake and eat: 7.40 (I try to make this a fixed point, but she wasn't hungry as she'd been feeding every two hours overnight)
Sleep: 9.30 - 10.10 (in car seat as I had do drop my son off, and first went off in the car at 9 but woke when we went inside and went back off after a little while. I have to do this trip three days a week, when we're at home this nap would be in the cot)
Wake and eat :10.15
Activity 10.15 - 11.30
Sleep 11.45 - 1pm in buggy (put in buggy at 11.30. I try to be consistent and this nap is always in the buggy and generally about two hours, it was shorter than normal yesterday)
Activity 1pm - 2.20, started the wind down about 2.10 following what I think were tired signs. This is where it all went wrong. She cried pretty strongly after a few minutes in the cot and I spent the next hour trying to settle her with shush pat. In the cot it had no impact whatsoever, she just wanted to be picked up. She screamed as soon as I put her back down, or even started to, no matter whether I continued to shush and pat while I did so.
3.20 eat and I tried to stop her sleeping on me and tried putting her back in the cot. Gave up and fed to sleep at about 4. She only had 20 mins, obviously overtired.
4.45 - 5.15 had another half hour cat nap on me (I mostly did this as I had to go and pick my son up at 5.30 and wanted to try and get her to have a little more sleep, it would be the last window to do so until bedtime.
6.30 eat and ready for bed, put down at 7.
Sleep at 7.40 after feeding because she was getting so worked up in the cot.

She then had a dream feed at 10, woke and took decent feeds at 12, 2, 5.30. Struggled to put back down after the 5.30 one which is unusual for a night feed.

So yes, it was all over the place and the afternoon really just became about me trying to get her to have some sleep to reduce the inevitable overtiredness at bedtime as a result of the poor afternoon naps. The wake up and bedtime are fairly consistent, and I can never get a late nap in so the latest she'll generally ever have woken up from her last nap is around 5.15. I've been working on an awake time of about an hour and twenty, based on yawns really, but maybe I should try pushing it right out.

I think we're definitely at the four month regression /growth spurt, she woke for three feeds last night too. She's been really snuffly at night (but not really during the day) for the last few days so that's not helping with her nighttime sleep either.

I really need to get her to sleep independently in the cot again, on the days where my two year old is at home it's going to be a bit of a challenge to say the least at this point! (she won't sleep in the sling anymore).

Thanks in advance.

[Skadiver13]

Hi hun I can hear you are stressed. If she's not feeling well and going through the 4 month sleep regression it might make sense to APOP a few days of good sleep to catch her up and then work on the independent sleep. Have you tried shush pat? If she has gone to sleep independently in the past i.e. you put her down awake but drowsy and she took herself off to sleep only waking at night to eat but able to put herself back to sleep otherwise than you know she already "knows" how, it's just a matter of getting back there. Right now the Prop is feeding her to sleep. So anytime she wakes up she's going to be looking for that. If you think she is OT then like I said apop a few days of good sleep to catch her and you up and then start working on the independent sleep. You could post what you would Want your EASY to look like.

[sophsk22]

Thanks for your reply. I've had more success with naps over the last few days, with a variation of shush pat (sometimes she's ok with the patting, others she's not and I find that a really slight rocking by holding her arms /sides while laying in the cot is better). They're the standard 45 minute naps but to be honest that's the least of my concerns, I remember with my son that one day they just weren't anymore and they were longer. I'm finding it tough on the days I've got him at home too, because I just can't sit and shush my daughter for half an hour and expect him to stay quietly in another room, but again, I can live with that.

My main issue now is with bedtime. I would imagine it's because she's overtired, but I just can't get a late nap from her. On the odd occasion I have it actually hasn't helped with bedtime anyway. I generally manage to get her down after two and a half hours' awake time at the most. Sometimes she goes straight down like a dream but wakes after 45 mins and I feed her again, others (like tonight) it's an hour and a half of her drifting off but not being able to stay asleep through the jolts (even with me sitting and holding her side etc). A couple more feeds are usually involved (when it's been 40 mins), but I don't feed to sleep.

I guess my ideal routine would be wake at 7.30am, sleep at 7pm. I can't really plan for her to wake from a last nap anytime after 5.15 because I have to get my son. I'm pretty flexible about how the day looks other than that so suggestions are welcome.

(the last week or so nights have gone to pot too. She's waking a lot and I'm feeding her probably up to four times).

Thanks again!

[Skadiver13]

Ahhh yes the dreaded 45min nap. Right around 4-6 months th is happened to us but like you said it went away when we started stretching A times a little.

ometimes she goes straight down like a dream but wakes after 45 mins and I feed her again,

Well this is the prop you speak of. In general if you want to get rid of the prop then you'd have to stop feeding her back to sleep. Once she goes to sleep this way she's going to expect it everytime she wakes up regardless of how great your routine is.  Even if you don't feed her to sleep she's still expecting that as comfort. I can imagine at this age she's need maybe 2 feeds but not every 40minutes or to get back to sleep.

Teaching to self sooth is hard, and it involves crying (not cio) but they are learning a new skill and it's tough. Is there anyone else at home with your son when you do BT for your dd? If so than I think teaching to Self-sooth at BT to start is the way to go and we can help with a game plan.

[sophsk22]

Hi,

Yes, my husband is here for bedtime most nights, so typically hesorts our son out while I do our daughter. However, he's going to be away for a week for work at the end of the month so I'm pretty keen to get things improved sooner rather than later! When I initially put her down for bed I don't feed her to sleep, and when I go back in after the 45 mins I don't feed her to sleep now. It would still be giving her comfort though I agree. I can try shush pat (or our variation of) tonight at that point and see how we go. When I've tried previously I have in all honesty given up as she's just got more and more frustrated, and I've got more tired and keen to be able to get downstairs and have my dinner ;-). So yes, I end up giving in and feeding her, which settles her, and then putting her back down and shushing to sleep. Which can still take a while. I'm definitely open to suggestions, thanks!

[Skadiver13]

Yes I am sort of in this "i need sleep i'll just do what i need to do for now" phase with my 8 month old DD. But I remember with my DS just needing to bite the bullet and go for it. We did a variation of shush-pat as PUPD did not work for him he just got all worked up. Take a look at some links below and let me know what you think.

Pick Up/Put Down (PU/PD) - Everything you ever needed to know!

Shush-pat - How to

The Gradual Withdrawal Method

The key to Gradual Withdrawal is to take tiny steps and make the changes very small at first so the child barely notices them.  Create a plan, broken into small steps of how you will reduce the parental dependence and work towards independence.  For example, patting on the back becomes lighter and lighter until the hand barely brushes the child's back, but is poised just above it.

To implement, follow your bedtime routine being certain that your child has sufficiently wound down from the day.  When wind down is completed, lay your child down, tuck them in and use a phrase they can associate with it's sleep time such as "time to go night-night you can find your blankie/pacifier/suck your thumb/etc. to help you fall asleep." Settle your child in their crib/bed and comfort as you normally would, then implement the first step in your plan.  Depending upon your child's temperament, you may be able to tackle more in less nights, or need to do less over the course of more nights.

The Gradual Withdrawal Method is intended for children that are reliant upon a parent's presence to calm them and help them settle for sleep. Examples are: sitting in the room, holding a child's hand, laying down with a child, patting to sleep, among others.  The idea is to simply reduce the reliance on parental presence gradually and in very small increments so the child continues to settle well and gains confidence in their ability to fall asleep independently.  The parent is there to assist the child in sleeping, but slowly reduces the dependence.  Examples might be: moving a chair closer and closer to the door until out of the room over the course of a few weeks, moving out a child's bed to an air mattress on the floor, then slowly move farther and farther towards the door over time, reducing the length of time patting though still staying with the child - then slowly working closer and closer towards the door.

[sophsk22]

Ok, thanks. So in my situation this is more appropriate for the initial bedtime rather than when she wakes up the first time? Assume I would also not feed her then but I'd have to do the normal shushing to try and get her to settle without it?

[sophsk22]

Hi again, I'm after a little more help please, I don't really know what's going on (other than just the dreaded four month sleep regression!). She's now 17 weeks and nighttime is horrendous. She's doing better at going down for naps independently, for the most part I can put her down now and leave her to it (just with the pacifier and some white noise). Bedtime is also better, she's settling more quickly, although not as easily as with naps and she generally needs me to go back to her a couple of times for some reassurance. Sometimes I do need to stay with her and shush pat while she goes off but not always. It's now after that that it all goes wrong! She still wakes after 45 mins and I don't feed her, I shush pat. That has got increasingly hard and I end up having to stay with her for a good 45 mins because she just can't get through the transitions into deep sleep, she stirs and wakes up every few minutes and can't resettle herself. Even when I've waited what I'm sure is long enough and I try to leave she knows and wakes up before I've reached the bottom of the stairs. She now wakes every 90 mins throughout the night and can take a while to resettle (one wake up took me two hours before I could make it back into bed myself last night, she woke every time I tried). I'm only feeding her when it's been three hours since her last one. She's still swaddled but I think I'm going to need to phase that out this week before she rolls from her back to her front. I used to be able to put her back down at night and leave her to it. Now she just can't get back into a deep sleep at all. Any advice?

Thanks!