Help with the 2-1 transition

[creations]

Hi there - sorry it looks like I abandoned you but I've just been a bit snowed under.

I would still keep the nap at 10.30am - perhaps with a flexibility of 15 mins either way if you feel more comfortable with that?
The days she woke later, 7am, and had a nap at 10.30 (but too short, maybe UT) could be indicating to her to wake up earlier which in effect means she increases her own A time to account for the 10.30 nap.  Really if she is laying awake in her cot not calling for you and you were still sleeping then you wouldn't know how long her A time was because you wouldn't know she woke at 6am rather than 7am. In some ways it is helpful to know when she wakes but in other ways it is not so helpful, it can make parents worry about A times and OT etc.
If she needs a longer first A time then this is either going to come from her waking earlier or you moving the nap later - it isn't going to come from giving her an earlier nap.
Times, A times, nap times are not set in stone and although we often use them here to try to judge the best routine for LO it is important not to get too wrapped up in them.  This for instance:

This morning's A time was 4 hours and I got a 1h20m nap.

Seems like a pretty good nap after 4hrs A time. I would have thought with say 4hrs 15 or 4hrs 30 she could well get a more restorative sleep of 1.5hr+ maybe a full 2hr nap.  I would take from this that a slightly longer A time is not a huge worry.
Of course it was only one day though so we shouldn't put too much focus on one A time and one nap.

So the last 2 morning she woke at around 4, I ends up having to nurse her but she went back to sleep until later 7 am.

I probably would have used this later WU as an opportunity to move the nap later, but easy to say in hindsight and you might prefer her to be up at 6am rather than 7am? I don't know.  7am sounds better to me, but it could result in a later BT down the line.

Just as a rough guide, with a longer first A time, shorter second A time and shorter still last A time the result is later BT which also then allows for an 11hr night, it could look something like this:
WU 7
A approx 4hr 15 - 4hr 30
S 11.15/11.30 - 1.00 (or even 1.15 or 1.30 if a 2hr nap)
A 3hr 30
S 4.30 - 5
A 3hr
BT 8

[Tabathagucci]

Hi and thank you!  I read this after I nursed her back to sleep yesterday when she woke at 5:05 after a 10 hour night... oh well!  I left her till she fussed, nursed her and she went back to sleep from 6:05 to 6:45.  Nap at 10:30 and I had to wake her at 12 to go pick up my son from school.  We were out the rest of the day and I mistimed her attempted pm nap (was too late) so she refused a second nap all together and was up from 12-6:30!  Went to bed easy and slept from 6:30 pm to 5:30 am!  11 hours after a suuuper long A time and one nap!
Sooo today we have music class till 10:15 so she will have to stay awake.  She will fall asleep in the car on the way home so may not get a longer nap but at least the morning A time will be long!  Hopefully that will lead to a later wake up tomorrow.
7 am waking sounds great but I have to wake her up by 12 to pick up my son, so I think I will try to keep the nap at 10:30 for as long as I can.  I know we'll have to gradually move it later but if I can keep the 2 naps till summer break in June it would be ideal!  Otherwise her nap would likely fall during the time I have to pick him up.  We will see how today goes!

[creations]

Ah I see. Well you can have some control over that first nap time by adjusting her morning WU time if needed (moving WU earlier, moving BT earlier if needed, then all naps remain earlier and you should be able to fit naps around the school run).  Seems like you're doing well for now

Wow long A time, she did well.  It must be nice for you to know that she can handle that once in a while so that if you get a rubbish nap day you don't have to stress out over it

[Tabathagucci]

I woke up at 5:15 this morning and she was already awake.  We had a long day yesterday with two short car naps. She ended up falling asleep in the car at 10:08 am and slept 40 mins, so her morning A time was 4h35m.  I won't put too much stock in the early waking because it was a long day (total A time of 11.5 hours).  Because of the short naps yesterday, I put her to bed early and she fell asleep at 6:15 so if she slept till 5 then she got 10h45m.  Sigh... I will try to be patient but it literally seems like no matter what I do she wakes up early!
I will put her down at 10:15 today, which will be more than 5 hours A time.  Not sure how I'm going to get her there or what kind of nap I'll get.  Will be interesting!

[Tabathagucci]

She seems like she wants to fall back to sleep and I feel like I should go nurse her back to sleep and that's it's mean to keep her up over 5 hours when she had a short night.  She was yawning and wanting to fall asleep yesterday after less than 4 hours but we had activities so that helped keep her awake.  I'm not feeling super confident about all this right now. 🙁
If she woke at 4 and fussed, I would nurse her, is there a general rule of thumb (after a certain amount of hours sleep or a certain time in the morning) that I don't nurse her and consider her up for the day?
She has reflux, allergies and food sensitivities so I've been more gentle with her and nurse her when she wants it because it helps settle her tummy.  However, right now she's laying quietly and not fussing...

[Tabathagucci]

Put her down at 10:12, asleep at 10:15, awake at 10:50.  I haven't been able to extend naps in months, she usually either poops or wants to eat once she's awake. She usually has a 3h35-45m second A time.  Do I keep it the same?  Thinking maybe putting her down at 3h25m so A time is about 3.5 hours. 
I know in the grand scheme of things this is really not a big deal but I'm so tired of waking up so early and just feel so discouraged.  Life was easier when she woke to eat at 3 and went back to sleep till 6:30 or 7!
UPDATE: I popped into her room and gave her back her paci somehow without her seeing me and she went back to sleep!!!!

[Tabathagucci]

It was a messy day again.  After going back to sleep she slept another 55 mins, 90 mins total.  Long story short, she refused naps the rest of the day (we had a reflux flare up from a new food), she wouldn't even nurse to sleep. Gave up trying at 4:20, put her to bed early and she was asleep by 6.  She's woken up several times crying since then so clearly overtired. I may nurse her back to sleep tomorrow or I G if she wakes early, just to get the poor kid some sleep.

[creations]

Is she on reflux meds?  Is it controlled well enough?

Sorry - just remind me - have you tried a routine with a short CN in the morning and a longer nap in the afternoon? Just thinking maybe it would help with the school run in there as you are limited atm as to how late you can put her down for that morning nap before it ends up having to be capped.

[Tabathagucci]

She is not on meds, they didn't work, but we have successfully controlled it with diet, both mine and hers.  However, occasionally as we test new foods we have issues.  I haven't tried a morning catnap yet because I've never had a good and steady pm nap, and because I'd rather keep the afternoons more open to be able to do things with my 5 yo rather than be stuck inside for a nap.  However, if that's the only option then I can try!
I'd like to keep trying the longer am nap for a bit tho as I think I just keep mistiming her pm nap.  She seems to have a window that she needs to go down by and if I miss it, she just won't sleep.  I could be wrong though!  I also think as the am A time gets longer, she seems to need a shorter pm A time so will have to figure that out.
Anyway, she fell asleep last night at 5:53 and slept till 5:35 this morning. She had some wakeups but they were brief.  I think 5 hours A time yesterday was too long so will put her down at 10:15 again today and see how it goes.  Once we make it to 6 am (if that ever happens!) I can push the nap later I think?

[Tabathagucci]

Ok so she slept 50 mins only with an A time of 4h40m.  So maybe she needs 5 plus hours before her nap???  That just seems so unlikely because she was at 3.5 hours for a couple months then slowly progressed to 4 hours last month and now all of a sudden needs 5?  Maybe she's ready for one nap? Or maybe the short nap was from an accumulation of OT? 

[Tabathagucci]

So looking back to a couple days ago, she had an A time of 4h10m, went down at 10:05 and slept 1h18m.  So a shorter A time, earlier nap and longer nap than yesterday's. I don't think she necessarily needs a longer A time I think maybe something else is going on? I'm not sure what tho...
Yesterday:
Woke 5:35
Sleep 10:18-11:08
Sleep 2:48-3:12
Sleep 6:30 pm
Woke this morning between 5 and 5:15, hard to tell as she was rolling around with eyes closed changing out her pacis.
How long do I try putting her to bed with this long A time before I try something else?

[Tabathagucci]

I so badly want to go in and nurse her back to sleep right now but maybe I'm just prolonging things if I do?
The earliest her nap has been in a week is 10:08 (once) and that was because she fell asleep I. The car. Every other day has been 10:15/10:30. She is waking up the same time or earlier.

[Tabathagucci]

Sorry for so many posts and all the frustration.  I read back through your replies and think I've been looking at this wrong.  As you said, we can't get too hung up in A times, which is what I've been stuck on. I think what you've been trying to tell me is the nap needs to be at a later hour, meaning time of day, and I just haven't been hearing it right! I did end up nursing her back to sleep and she slept on me till 7.  I will use the later wake up to push the nap later, as you suggested a few posts ago.  Will see how 10:45 works out.
As her nap shifts later I'll just have to wake her early, or see if I can leave her home sleeping while hubby works (I'm fortunate that her works from home).

[creations]

I think what you've been trying to tell me is the nap needs to be at a later hour, meaning time of day, and I just haven't been hearing it right! I did end up nursing her back to sleep and she slept on me till 7.  I use the later wake up to push the nap later, as you suggested a few posts ago. 

Yes
and

As her nap shifts later I'll just have to wake her early,

Yes. This will be the shortening nap then, shorter morning nap and longer afternoon nap. Although I understand that you don't want a longer afternoon nap it might be the only option until on one nap she can hold out until after the school run and do a lunch time nap.  For this she needs to stay up until say 12.30 or so I am guessing (not sure when you are home from school).
If DH is able to mind her during the school run this could be an interim solution.

Will see how 10:45 works out.

Personally I would have move it to 11 with the 7am WU, 4hrs A and a 1hr nap before having to wake her up.

The later naps will also help to move BT a bit later too - looks like she is doing about 11 or 11.5hrs over night which is more than mine ever did.  It's a pretty good night even if it doesn't feel so great when you are getting up early.

Some LOs manage these routines with two 1hr naps btw. I've seen examples of this so it might be something you could consider as you prefer not to have a long pm nap.

[Tabathagucci]

Ok great!  She was awake a full hour before I nursed her back to sleep, so I didn't want to push it too far. I always leave her until she starts fussing as she does occasionally fall back to sleep.  If she wakes early again (5 or 5:30), is it ok to nurse her back to sleep again
To help get her to 10:45 or 11?  Going from 5 am to 10:45 just seems crazy. 
My husband often has work calls during the day so I can't always leave her but between help from him and asking neighbors to pick my son up I might be able to get to June without having to wake her too often.  Once upon a time, she would sleep 12-12.5 hours if she had a day with 2 short naps, she handled it fine so maybe we can get there again. 
My fear about the short am nap is that I won't be able to get a longer pm nap, as I've never really had a good consistent pm nap With her.