Why are naps so hard?!

[Chloevalentine]

We were doing so good for a while and now we are back to 30 min naps and nws! Any suggestions ?

[Chloevalentine]

I just tried shorter A times 2.5 hrs instead of 3 and it's helping. Maybe just until we catch up and get past the ot then go back to 3?  With the shorter a time it makes two naps hard he really needs three but I can't ever get him to take that late catnap.  Which is why he does better with the longer a times and the two naps. Maybe the OT was also causing the night wakings

[Chloevalentine]

Ok scratch that just got a 30 min nap ugh!

[peepip]

Just wanted to let you know I'm in the same boat! My 6mo naps (and sometimes night sleep)  are all over the place and playing around with A times sometimes helps sometimes doesn't! It's very confusing and frustrating. Hopefully it will all work out for us soon...

[Chloevalentine]

It really is frustrating right! We are also getting nws that are usually soon after or a couple hours after bedtime and I'm not sure why. We've also been get ews around 5 am which he just started doing again. I don't know what's going on or what to do!

[Chloevalentine]

Any ideas as to why the early nws and ews and short naps are happening?

[creations]

I think your LO is about 7 months now is that right?
Would you like to post a recent EASY - what are you aiming for these days?
Is he self settling and going to sleep independently for both naps and BT or are you needing to  help?

[Chloevalentine]

Hi there yes 7 months ! He does self settle although sometimes he does need some help at that second nap. Here's an average easy although days are different based upon length of naps:

Wakes 5-6 some days I can feed and get him back to sleep but most I can't.
Ideal would be 6 at earliest
A 6
E bottle hour later solids
S 915/30 - 10/11. He can sleep 30 mins or up to 1.5 hrs. We are in the car for school run from 844-915 sometimes he starts to fall asleep but I'm able to transfer him groggy to crib or he's awake and goes down easily self settles. This A time can be very long if he's up at 530 and not down for nap until 915.
E if he ate at 5/ 530 sometimes I'll feed him right before school drop off if he ate later around 6/630 I'll feed him when he wakes from nap whenever that is and solids hour later
S the next nap I'll usually put him down after 3 hrs A time or around 2. I've tried 2.5 hrs if his first nap is short from 930-10 but that usually is around the time we are in car for school pickup which is from 1245-115 so that doesn't work out. That afternoon nap is always tough. A lot of crying and me going in to try to settle and then he'll usually only sleep 30 mins!
So it usually is nap from 2/215- 245
E same thing depending on when he ate last I might try to feed him before his nap or after depending.
E 3 bottle solids hour later
By 530 he usually starts to get cranky and I'll usually bring him up for bedtime routine and bottle around 6 asleep by 630. Even on days where he does a decent nap of at least an hour and is up around 3 he still is tired and ready for bed so latest might be 7 bedtime.
No matter when he goes to sleep he's up around 5-6 am! How do I get morning wake up later around 6/630 and get a better afternoon nap?!

[creations]

I think you could try to move everything on by pushing that first nap later, to clearly after the school run. More like 10am.
If it was me I'd try to move by 15 mins per day for 3-4 days and use it almost as a "set" nap time.  Yes he will likely be tired during those days because he has been up too early but the knock on effect "should" be later nap 2, later BT and later WU.
Although you've done a slightly later BT it's been after longer naps rather than later naps so I do think it's worth a full shift. It would also help (IMO) with the school run as he would get into the habit of staying awake up until getting home then going to bed nicely for his nap and you don't have the hassle and worry of the car to cot transfer.

What do you think??

[Chloevalentine]

 Most times he does stay awake he's just very groggy and ready for bed I hate to try to keep him up an extra 45 minutes and lose the window plus don't you think 4 hrs A time is too long as it is?  He  self settles especially for that first nap in the morning so there's no problem there so much it's that second nap that's tough and I don't know why. How late shoukd the nap be and how much A time ?

[creations]

I understand your reluctance in to increase the first A time however it is not really an increase, or not as much as you might think.

No matter when he goes to sleep he's up around 5-6 am! How do I get morning wake up later around 6/630 and get a better afternoon nap?!

You asked how to make him sleep later in the morning as the 5am WU is too early.  Moving the first nap to 10am is a way of shifting morning WU time and making it more likely he takes a long nap every day rather than sometimes taking a shorter nap which throws off nap 2.

My suggestion is to shift things away from the school run. He might seem groggy and ready to sleep but in part that's because he's been awake since 5am and possibly also looking dopey from the car ride.
Here's how I think your day could look on the suggested shift:
WU 6.30/7
A 3.5hr/3hr
S 10.00 - 11.30
A 3hr (or might need 3hr 15)
S 2.30 - 4.00 (2.45 - 4.15)
A 3hr 15
BT 7.30pm
11hr night (which is roughly what you are getting now)

Although you've done a slightly later BT it's been after longer naps rather than later naps so I do think it's worth a full shift.

The difference with this also is that it reduces the A time before BT. You said even after a decent nap 2 he is awake by 3pm and BT is then later, at 7pm so there is sometimes a 4hr A time there, if this is too long for him (like is) then it can lead to EW the following morning.
If BT is earlier because he only had a 30 min nap 2.15-2.45 and BT is at 6.30 he is getting 3hr 45 A time before BT - again it can be too long

Whilst you are concerned about increasing the A time through my suggestions (but it does not go beyond the guidance A times if you review the sample EASY above) he is already getting longer than this due to EW and short naps.

He  self settles especially for that first nap in the morning so there's no problem there so much it's that second nap that's tough and I don't know why.

Often it is not about moving just one nap but looking at the bigger picture of the entire day and night together.  In this case I have looked over your times and the information you have given and tried to work out the best overall routine to aim for.

It is of course up to you what you choose to do

[Chloevalentine]

 Thank you for all that information I'll def give it a try!  So if he wakes up at 530 AM tomorrow morning I'm supposed to wait until 10 to put him down for a nap?  That if I get a good nap the second one around 230?  But if I only get a short second nap again until three what time should I do bed? 7 bed would be ideal since big brother goes to bed at 730.  That way I can get the baby to sleep and then get the big guy to sleep.  It's three hours at a time before bed typical ?

[creations]

I wouldn't take him right up to 10am in one step, no. If you have a look back I suggested moving in 15 min increments each day.

[Chloevalentine]

Well today he slept until 615!! So he went down awake at 930! Good start. If he only sleeps until 1030 do I still wait until 230 for second nap ? We will be out this afternoon so afternoon nap might be in car. But on average willl the A times eventually look more like 3.5 hrs with 2 naps of 1.5 each? That would be wonderful he's never really  done two good naps in a day.

[Chloevalentine]

He only slept an hour barely. So he woke at 615 slept from 930-1025. So should I still try nap at 230 that's 4 hours A time?