Author Topic: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled  (Read 7911 times)

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Offline leesa001

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Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« on: January 13, 2017, 14:42:02 pm »
Hi have a very consistent bedtime routine with baby.  First change diaper, clothes door, close curtains, turning on sound machine.  Then lay him on the bed to swaddle.   This is when he begins to cry. I try to soothe him and smile and tell him it's OK it's time to sleep.  Give him kisses, and out him over my shoulder and begin to sing hum to him while patting his back.    He will come interested to cry throughout the entire SIT part of the 4s.   Most often he is kicking and continues to cry,  I feel like I am irritating him more by holding him so I lay him down where now he is crying harder so I shush pat him to sleep.

I read stories of people putting their babes drowsy but awake but I can never reach that with my baby.  What am I doing wrong?
I try to make sure he is not over stimulated before nap  or make sure I catch him before he gets overtired.   
Is my routine too Long?   Should I start my routine 20min before NAP?

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #1 on: January 15, 2017, 10:10:53 am »
Hi there
Sorry you didn't have any replies yet.

I see from your other post on Night Waking that your LO is 3.5 months old now.  As you are in the process of weaning a feed to sleep prop this sounds relatively normal that he will cry when being put down for sleep and fuss because you are changing the routine he is used to. It will take a little while for him to learn to fall to sleep without feeding to sleep.  The 4s routine will not automatically or immediately send your LO to sleep, rather it is a process of teaching LO that it is okay to fall to sleep without needing to feed as a prop before hand.

There are a couple of other things which might be having an impact on his fussiness when you begin the wind down and swaddle him.
- if his nap routine and A times are not suitable for his age he might be UT (under tired) and trying to let you know he is not yet ready for a nap
- the 4 month age (you are approaching and it can be early for some) is a time when A times increase quite quickly and many LO go through a "4 month regression" with their sleep which can take several weeks to work through.  Having a suitable routine and increasing A times appropriately and in good time can help but not always, sometimes you just have to roll with the regression and wait it out
- he might not like a long wind down time. My own DS liked no longer than say 3-5 mins which included nappy change a very quick song and into bed.  If I tired to WD for longer than this he would fuss and scream, he was trying to tell me to just get him into his bed.  When mine was a new born I could time how long it took him to nod off, the exact 20 mins Tracy said in the BW books, he went through each stage exactly as described.  But at 3.5 months he began his 4 month regression and I tried to introduce the 4s sitting aspect of WD only to discover this drove him mad.  He wanted to be up and active for his entire A time without any quiet time, and then a super fast WD and into bed.  It was a slightly different scenario as mine was already an independent sleeper.

If you would like to post your EAS times we can have a look at your overall routine. Add a note to show where WD started, what LO did, and what time LO fell to sleep and woke.  I might be a case of increasing A a bit and reducing the WD time - but it is hard to tell without seeing your routine.
hope this helps


Offline jessmum46

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2017, 14:02:13 pm »
Some great advice there :D  And just to say I agree entirely about some babies not wanting a long winddown - both of mine were much better with that very quick into bedroom, lights off, quick song and into bed routine.  I also put them down fully awake from the beginning, not 'drowsy but awake' - it may be you will have more success that way?

Offline leesa001

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2017, 17:06:14 pm »
Thank you for your reply.
Currently I have been working on increasing his A time to 1h30m because I had him on a newborn easy with an A time of 1h10m

He has been doing pretty well with the extended a times but sleep is still a wreck. 
His easy is  every 3 hours with 1h30 a.   But here is an example of a typical dqy
Eat and wake 7
A 1h20 - 1h30 min  (depending on how long he fusses to sleep)    I will bring lo into his room around 8.10 to change diaper, swaddle, walk into my bedroom,  draw curtains, turning on sound machine,  and sing song upright in arms while patting.   He normally begins kicking and squirming,    I say it's OK time for sleep now,  trying to get him calm, but it escalates so I lay him down. Shush pat until he has completely fallen asleep.  So maybe 10 minutes wd, and 10 minutes of patting
S 820 or 830 -9  will wake up. I have to be in the room and have my hand on him to try to get him to fall back asleep.  Or shush pat.   It will either work and he will sleep for another 30-45 MIN, sometimes on and off for 10 minutes at a time, or we will be shushing for 30 more minutes at which case I will get him out if he is still crying ,  and do some quiet activity until the next E time.  Now my whole routine is off. 
E 10 
A  if he has had a good nap it will be 1h30m  otherwise I put him down earlier for bed based on the time he woke up from his nap or watch his cues.
S 11.30.    Or if he only slept for 30 minutes for his first nap it could be at 1030 or 11.     Same as above  I will have to shush pat him until he is fully asleep.   He will wake at 30-45 min,  shush patting him back to sleep.
E 1
A
S 2.30 same as above depends on how his first 2 naps were
E 4
A
S 530  same as above
Bath 630
640  pj's,  swaddle,  say goodnight walkthrough house, draw curtains,turn on sound machine
E 7
Bed sleep 730 or 8  depends on how long he nurses for.  And my toddler sometimes wakes him as well despite the sound machine.
E  will wake up around 10- 1030
E will wake up around 230 to 330 will nurse only for 3 or 4 minutes and falls asleep very quickly!   Sometimes I cannot rouse him from sleep and put him back to bed
Wil  wake around 530.  I will normally give a pacifier,  and pat him,  if he is still really fussy I will nurse him,  but again the little bugger is quick to fall asleep on the breast!
Wake up at 7

Since I've stopped nursing to sleep i have only been able to shush pat to sleep. 

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2017, 13:21:43 pm »
I wonder if perhaps a little push in A time, say to 1h40 might help?  He might fight less initially which may then make it easier for you to start weaning off the shh pat - gradually patting for less time until he does more of the settling on his own.  What do you think?  Honestly overall though I appreciate it is super hard work with so many naps in the day, I actually think you are doing really well for this age!

Offline leesa001

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2017, 14:04:11 pm »
Thank you!  That's really encouraging .  I have the baby blues  and it's been hard.  My dd was also a bad sleeper, but I didn't start her on the bw until she was 4.5 months well into her sleep regression.    I wish someone would have warned me about that!.
I started my ds from day 1 but he was such a sleepy eater,  I spent most of thE A time just trying to keep him awake long enough to feed.  Which is why I had a problem with the nursing to sleep habit. 
I want to gradually lengthen his A time over the next 2 weeks.

Yesterday he wouldn't extend his first nap,  and he didn't fall asleep until 2hrs later.  He must have been pretty exhausted because I had to wake him for his next feed!

I wonder though why he is waking at 30 minutes and not at the 45 min like he used to.  Coukd his sleep cycle have switched from 45 to 30m? Do you think it's habitual?  Maybe I should wake to sleep?

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2017, 22:14:33 pm »
I wonder though why he is waking at 30 minutes and not at the 45 min like he used to.
I see this sometimes with LOs who are under tired for the nap. They are encouraged to nod off but then wake after a very short nap, not even the full sleep cycle. I wouldn't look too much into it tbh.
As katherine has said a longer A time would likely help.
Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!
between now and the next couple of weeks the A time might increase to 2hrs and for some it can be earlier (if low sleep needs or just like a longer A time), and you've already seen a surprisingly long nap after a 2hr A time so he can likely handle the 1hr 40.

Sorry to hear you've been finding it hard.


Offline jessmum46

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2017, 08:00:57 am »
((Hugs)), the baby blues are tough :( How are you doing for support for you? Be gentle with yourself :-*

Offline leesa001

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2017, 15:26:39 pm »
Thank you  sorry for the late reply.   
I have tried to extend to 1h40m now,  the last 2bdays were good, but overnight he decided that 4am was a good time to wake and was not having any of the shush pat!   Last night it took me 3 hours to get him to fall asleep.  Again the shush pat was not working.   I checked to see if he was hungry and gave him a bottle instead of nursing, but he wasn't interested and just inconsolable.   It seems he is right in the middle of a wonderweek  so perhaps that is it.    Everytime I would try to lay him down he would start screaming.   
And he knows now that if he screams hard enough that I will pick him up!  When he calms and I try to lay him down again screaming.   I'm trying to hold off on the pupd As suggested due to his age, but he's crying either way.
I try to be reassuring and see if he will settle on his own but he just will not.   Finally I had to give him a pacifier and held him in my arms until he was almost asleep and lay him down. 



How did you get your babies to sleep independently without crying?  Did you let him cry for a bit a walk back in , give reassuring words and then walk out to see if they will settle themselves?

I feel clueless with this baby


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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2017, 12:54:36 pm »
I know recently you weaned a feed to sleep prop - do you feel you are over this now or it is still an issue?  I see you eventually used a paci when he was up that long NW and wouldn't settle - are you trying to wean the paci too or already weaned but resorted to it in desperation after such a hard night?

These NWs might be prop related if you are still weaning them.  Otherwise though I'd be thinking pain/discomfort maybe from gas, reflux or teething, or an illness coming, or possibly SA related to a developmental leap.

And he knows now that if he screams hard enough that I will pick him up! 
This is exactly what he should know - that when he really needs you, you will be there, every time he needs you.  It will actually reduce his need for you in the long run as he will be confident to go to sleep on his own and only call out when he needs attention.

I'm trying to hold off on the pupd As suggested due to his age, but he's crying either way.
The BW sleep training methods are not no-cry methods. Baby is going to cry, he is going to be frustrated that things have changed if you've recently weaned a prop, and he is going to cry from tiredness and the inability to get himself to sleep whilst he still need support and is relying on you. It is a gradual process to teach him that he can self sooth.  Shush/pat is not a magic fix which stops babies crying, it is a method of supporting your baby so they know you are there with them, they can hear and feel your touch and know they are not alone.
Please be aware that PUPD does not mix with paci use or other props so even with LO being too young for us to suggest PUPD as a training method we would also need to advise all props are dropped if PUPD is used.  It is of course okay and part of the shush/pat method to pick your baby up when needed and continue to shush/pat in arms until calm, then lay him down and continue shush/pat in the cot.

Did you let him cry for a bit a walk back in ,
BW methods do not involve leaving baby to cry alone. We do not advocate leaving a LO to cry alone with any sort of timed return. If he needs you go to him, if he doesn't leave him.
A mantra-cry is the only sort of "cry" where we would say you can leave LO. It is not really a cry IMO, there are no tears and it is not a full on "I need you" cry although can escalate or change to this if LO encounters further problem self settling or it goes on for too long and LO gets frustrated.  A mantra is more of a self soothing hum, a repetitive noise which helps LO to relax.

How did you get your babies to sleep independently without crying?
Oh mine did cry - all babies cry it is their only way of communicating with you.  Mine was very slowly sleep trained from day 1. A slow gradual process where I picked up every time he needed me and soothed him using an adapted shush/pat and put down again (initially putting down asleep, then when eyes were nodding)...but he was just a few weeks old.  Even as a fully independent sleeper he has still need my help and attention - and has still cried to get my attention - many many times, of course he has. And every time he has cried I have gone directly to him to see what the problem is and how I can help.

If the crying bothers you, if you are finding it very emotional and sad I suggest some ear plugs or headphones with calm music playing for you - you can still hear LO as you are in the room right there with him but it will take the edge off the sound for you. In the early days with mine I really felt his emotion, I joined him in his sadness, almost, and over time I realised I do not need to do this, I can emotionally distance myself a little.  As long as I am there supporting him I do not also need to be sad.


Offline leesa001

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2017, 21:39:08 pm »
The nursing to sleep has nearly ended except at NW.  I find it difficult because he will wake and he will only nurse for a few minutes and fall asleep quickly.  I try to waje him before putting him down but he doesn't stir.
Some NW if I find its been too soon I will say it's time to sleep turn him on his side and shush pat.  I first have to reswaddle him because he is a little houdini ,  if he catches sight of me he smiles and is alert.  At this point the shush pat only makes him cry harder because he wants to be up.

What do you do in this instance?  I don't want to remove him from the cot and create and habit of waking in the night to play.  Do I continue to shush pat.  If it goes on for more than an hour I assume he's gotten hungry from all the crying and nurse him.  But at this point I feel he has won, and got exactly what he wanted.   

My husband says he doesn't cry for you he screams at you !

The pacifier is a prop I use as a last resort and only at night.  He has never really likes the pacifier anyway.  Most often he pushes it out and wants nothing  of it  he only wants the breast.   For this reason I discontinued giving it to him because it never really calmed him. 
 
Sometimes I find that my son doesn't want to be patted,  he will twist away from me in his cot.

His crying more so bothers me when I've given everything and he is still crying, that my presence should be soothing him but instead it irritates him  more,
So even if I am holding him he is still screaming when he should be calming.   

Offline leesa001

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2017, 23:26:45 pm »
I should add that he mostly behaves this way at Night. D during the day he is quite pleasant most times.   And since I've extended his A time to now 1h45m  he will fall asleep relatively quickly  .  I still have to shush pat but not nearly as long.  And these last 2 days  he has slept through the sleep cycle for some of his naps. 

Thank you for being so nice and answering all my questions .


I really hope this is an early sleep regression,  because I just can't see him getting worse .

My dd1 was really iquick at adapting to the bw method and I started her at 4.5 months.   With my ds2 he had fought me since birth. 

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #12 on: January 21, 2017, 09:07:58 am »
The NWs sound difficult but do try to remind yourself that your LO is very young, he has not yet learned to sleep fully independently, his routine might not be quite right yet, and things may be bothering him which he is going to cry about.  It is not a matter of winning or losing with babies, only a matter of responding when you are needed.

If it goes on for more than an hour I assume he's gotten hungry from all the crying and nurse him.  But at this point I feel he has won, and got exactly what he wanted.   
Long NWs are exhausting - we've all been there I'm sure - they really do take their toll on us. I urge you not to think of feeding him as him "winning" though.  If he's been awake for an hour you are quite right that he has likely burnt up some additional calories and might need a feed earlier than usual, so you are doing the right thing by going ahead and feeding him but maybe you can see this as a matter of you caring for him and seeing to his need rather than a "win" for him?
I realise there might be some question over whether he is using nursing as a prop for sleep which you are trying to wean but babies this age do also need a couple of night feeds and the feeding can become efficient enough for it to be pretty quick too. Growth Spurts will also lead to more NFs for a short while - all very confusing when you want to wean a prop, I know.

It's great news that he is settling more quickly for naps now and marvellous to hear he is transitioning and napping longer too!! This could well help to improve the night sleep as he gets better day sleep.  if you look back at your first post and remember how frustrating it was to put him down for a nap with all that crying, you will see it is only 7 days and you are now observing shorter PD time, less patting and longer naps - this is a huge step and one which I hope you can take courage from.
Things will get better - when they are bad remind yourself that babies DO cry, be there for him, try not to see it as him "winning" but rather you being a lovely caring Mummy (which you are!), and remind yourself that other areas have been bad and have improved.

hugs


Offline jessmum46

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2017, 13:17:31 pm »
You sound like you are doing really well :) In terms of feeding at night, how often are you doing so/what would be a typical night right now? He's still very little so personally my inclination would be to feed unless you've clearly *just* done so as 2-3 night feeds (with him falling asleep) is well within normal for this stage. It is super-exhausting, but one so small will need Mummy at night - we used to say my DS was lonely if we couldn't work out what else the issue was!  I assume there's nothing obvious that could be causing him discomfort and making him wake?

Offline leesa001

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2017, 12:47:35 pm »
Well the NW seem to have regressed quite a bit actually.  Here is what yesterday looked like:
W 7  (ate for 15m
A 1h45m
S 845- 1005 ( 1h20m)
E (12m)
A (1h55m  took longer to settle)
S 1205-115/ 125- 220 (slept for 1h20m  awake for 10 m while i tried shushed pat to sleep then slept for another hour.  My mistake as I was napping with him and didn't wake him up I time)
E 15min
A 1h45
S 405-440   (35m.  Would not sleep longer.  Tried shush pat, tried take out of  rib for 15 minutes and put back to sleep what wasn't going back, and only crying harder. So I fed him early at 5
E 18m
Gave him an early bath
E 635-640 (5m  fell asleep on breast very Quickly woke up and shush pat him to sleep didn't fall asleep until 705
S  705-745  (40m) tried to shush pat , but he only had 5 minutes of nursing the previous session so fed him again
E 755-8 (4m  fell asleep on breast again  woke him up to shush pat for 15m)
S 815-1055 (2h45m)
E 1053-11  shush pat back to sleep
S 1120-1220   was up out of swaddle sucking on and playing with hands fingers I believe he only slept 40 minutes and I woke when he first cried out because his swaddle was completely undone.
Reswaddle
E 1220- 1230   then woke him because he fell asleep and shush pat him until 1245
S 1245 -315 (2h30m)
E 320 330  fell asleep twice during feeding so really he only ate maybe 5 minutes shush pat to sleep until 345
S 345-445  (1hr)
E 458  for 5m and wouldn't fall back asleep  triedshush patting, please. P.u  finally fed him again
E 620-625
S 625-705 (40m)

Bedfore I would give the pacifier to stretch these wakings and feedings out, but now I find I'm up more at night shush patting and trying to make sure he goes through all the stages of sleep only to wake up 10 to 15 minutes later.

I don't feel he was all that hungry because he wasn't taking full feeds and falling asleep. I tjink that's all he wanted was the breast.
He still has a sleep association I think, because when shush ing over the shoulder he will sucking on my shoulder.
Everytime he has woken up I can hear him working on getting his hands free from the Swaddle,  and then after a 5 minutes of that he slowly he cries out for me,  not a real cry but just a mom im awake cry.  I don't go to him until it's s full real cry. 

He's not teething.   No illness .   I think that it's the sleep transitions still
« Last Edit: January 23, 2017, 13:06:09 pm by leesa001 »

Offline leesa001

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2017, 12:51:05 pm »
Should I go back to giving the Pacifier?   He does have a strong need to suckle.   When he was born he had sucking bkisters on his fistside romantic sucking in the womb.
maybe give it to him during the wind down routine or during his A TIME?

Offline jessmum46

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2017, 13:25:08 pm »
At night I know perhaps you have been trying to break a feed to sleep dependence but I do think you may be unnecessarily making this harder on yourself by waking him when he falls asleep feeding.  If it's a genuine night feed due to hunger, it really doesn't matter that he falls asleep on the breast.  Just put him down and get yourself back to sleep quickly! 

I think perhaps what you want to avoid however is feeding quite so often - I would set yourself some rough rules that you can stick to when you're struggling to think in the middle of the night.  If he can go 3h between feeds in the day, he should be able to do that at night.  So looking at your night I would have done as you did to begin with, and tried a feed at 7.45pm when he woke if he really didn't eat at bedtime, but put him down asleep if he fell asleep on you.  It was likely an OT waking (typically wakings in the first few hours after bedtime are due to over tiredness).  If he'd fed reasonably at bedtime I would have just gone for a resettle, no feed.  The next wake at 10.55 I'd have fed as that was 3h from last feed and put straight back down.  I wouldn't have fed at 12.20 (only 1.5 after his last feed) or the 4.58 wakings, but would have tried at the others. 

Just as a thought - I know you mentioned that he is not teething or unwell, but does he suffer with any tummy troubles or any symptoms suggesting reflux?

From the paci perspective I kind of think it's up to you.  Pros would be it would be something for him to suck, and when the time comes it's reasonably easy to wean/get rid of with a bit of persistence.  Would help you stretch out the feeds too.  Cons would be that it can very easily become a prop and until he is able to replug independently (from 7-8 months) you may be up several times per night putting it back in.  If he is a very sucky baby he will find something of his own to suck (thumb, wrist, fingers, lovey) given time so really I think it's your call x

Offline leesa001

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2017, 16:13:01 pm »
Last night was bad as well.  And he woke up at 545 ready to go!

The day went ok  he had 1 nap for 1.5hrs and then 2 hrs.  The 3rd nap he only slept 45 and wouldn't take the the shush pat, so I gave him another nap around 6 and he slept for only 25 minutes (I had dropped something in the kitchen which I believe is what woke him)
Bedtime he nursed or 15 minutes but he onky slept from 8 for 45 min 
Then he cried for an hour straight while I tried to shush pat,  and pick up.    I tried to give him a bottle thinking my supply might have been low, but he only took 1oz.  After trying some more, I offered the breast again, and he fell asleep right away at 950
S 950--1230 (3h20m)
E 5 minutes fell asleep on breast put him back in the crib,  didn't have energy to waje and shush
S 1240-230 (1h50m) tried to shush back to sleep but wasn't having it, so I fed him
E 10 min again fell asleep on breast 
S 240-440 (2hrs0
Woke up at 350 but he must have nodded off back to sleep.
S 450-550  was wide  awake  would not fall back asleep

When he woke and lifted his legs  he did let some gas go, but he's not screaming upon waking,  he is breaking out of his swaddle, and babbling a little before calling out to me,   so I don't velieve it's gas that's truly bothering him,
He very seldom spits up so I don't believe it's reflux either.
The reason I was waking him before putting back to sleep was because I though he was associating the breast to get back to sleep and using me as a prop.   I'm torn between giving him the pacifier, because it only worked some of the time,  other times he wouldnt only settle for the real thing!   I thought if I eliminated the props he would sleep longer stretches at night, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.  So frustrating .  He is in the midle of a wonderweek, .  But if he can sleep through the transitions during the day he should be able to sleep through them at night as well, no?

What should I do with the nw and early wakings when  he is all smiles, and if I turn him on his side to begin shush ing and patting it's only then that he begins crying at me?




Offline jessmum46

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2017, 20:11:42 pm »
(((Hugs))), the broken nights are hard work. 

But if he can sleep through the transitions during the day he should be able to sleep through them at night as well, no?
Not necessarily.  Sleep at night and during naps are (I understand) organised quite differently in the brain.  It's possible to nap in one way and sleep at night in completely another.  If feeding every time he wakes at night is what he has become accustomed to, then he may well continue to wake fully at transitions looking for the breast to soothe himself back to sleep.

To put that in context though - at his age I would still expect him to wake 2-3 times in a 12h night for a feed.  He really is still very little and some people feel more comfortable just feeding if there is any doubt, and leaving weaning night feeds until a little later down the line once LO is established on solids.  It's up to you which approach you choose really :)

What should I do with the nw and early wakings when  he is all smiles, and if I turn him on his side to begin shush ing and patting it's only then that he begins crying at me?
Unless he is upset I would actually ignore him totally.  He may well wake, play for a while, then go back to sleep.  If he gets upset and needs you that's different, but provided he is happy just let him get on with it.


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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2017, 15:10:34 pm »
The last 2 nights have been the same.   Never sleeping longer then 2h45m.  I don't want to nurse him but then think to myself, it's 1/2hr to his next feeding,  if I shush pat for 15 minutes and he falls asleep he's just going to wake up hungry again 10-15m later.  But it looks as though it's not making a difference in me feeding him because he's still waking up anyway. 

Also his naps are getting shorter again waking 30 m in.  Should I increase his awake time again?   It's now 1h45m
And when he does wake at 30m and won't fall back asleep should I consider that the beginning of his A time and clock 1h45m from that point, or should I keep him awake until his next scheduled nap?   
I don't want him to get too overtired and risk ruining his night sleep as bad as it is already, but I also don't want him waking from his naps out if habit either

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #20 on: January 27, 2017, 12:43:23 pm »
Based on previous A times and nap lengths I would increase A time to 2hrs now. See if he needs help to transition through to the next cycle again (W2S if needed) and hopefully those naps will extend to a good length again.

And when he does wake at 30m and won't fall back asleep should I consider that the beginning of his A time and clock 1h45m from that point, or should I keep him awake until his next scheduled nap?   
This is your choice. You can do it either way and see what happens.
In the BW books when Tracy was sleep training she kept them up to the next scheduled nap time so it was a very long A time as it included all the time they were awake when they should have been sleeping plus the A time and then back for the nap.  This is really useful in sleep training but it can lead to OT due to very long A times.  Most people who know LO can self settle are more likely to count the A time from when LO wakes after a short nap and put down again after the A time and no more.  If you like you can even split it and see how he does with a longer A time - if it leads to better naps or OT naps.


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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2017, 21:17:10 pm »
Thank you.
I have been trying this last week to extend lo awake time to 1h50m  sometimes even to 2hrs.  He will be sometimes so tired that he wikl be crying in my arms anr as soon aas he hits the cot, with just a few shushses hes past out.  The issue I am having is that 1.  Either he is not sleeping the full 2 hours, (sometimes only 1h20m) and 2.  He is hungry at 3,5 hours and can't make it to 4 hour easy.

Is it possible to have an 4 hour easy with an A time of 2 hours, but E every 3.5?  If so, i am having trouble figuring out a 7 to 7 schedule.

He is still having night wakings of every 2.5 hours on average.  I shush pat him back to sleep, and not feed him unless it has been 3hours.  I hope he will break this habit soon

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2017, 11:21:25 am »
My DS's A times increased rapidly but his E time remained at 3hrs until he was 6 months old and had solids meals between milk feeds at which point the milk feeds gradually extended naturally.  So, yes, you can run a shorter E time if needed.  You just have to fit it around naps and if needed feed early before the nap, leave a few mins A before sleep (or do a nappy change) so you don't start feeding to sleep.
It isnot easy to show you a routine if the naps are different lengths, some 1hr 20 and some longer but here is a rough example:

WU 7
E 7
A 2hr
S 9 - 10.30
E 10.30
A 2hr
S 12.30 - 2pm
E 2
etc
Mine had to eat at 3hrs but he wouldn't eat directly from waking in the morning which meant WU then 30 mins before E then the rest of A time, nap and E on WU from nap.  If I had to feed him before nap I just did, maybe even a bit less than 3hrs if the E and S were going to collide.


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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2017, 16:52:43 pm »
Thank you  this is very helpful.
LO is now 4 months.
Last night was a nightmare.

He only slept for 25m in his pm nap at 4, so I had to give him a mother cat nap at 6pm (30m) and push his BT back to 730.  But he did not fall asleep until 810pm
He woke 40m in and had to pat him back to sleep.
Then he woke again at 1055, so I fed him, but woke again at 1210am, and shush back to sleep. Then again at 1am, but again woke up 15m later.  I changed his diaper, but he wasn't crying, just awake. 
I fed him again at 140am thinking he is waking out of hunger, and put him back to bed, but he was wide awake,  sucking on his fingers.  I kept reawaddling,  but his fingers still managed to come out to suckle on do I finallt gave up and just let him be.  Once he started to cry I picked him up to settle, and put back down, but he would have none if it.  After several attempts he was just screaming at me.  I held him for a good 30min before he finally gave up crying, and put him down where I continued to shush pat back to sleep.
He finally fell asleep at 330am.  I figured if he was hungry he would wake.  And did so around 550.
I fed him and he had a full feed and put him back to bed at 630 where he and i both slept in until 8

I have read read the post on pu/pd, and following Henry's dad's thread, but have a few questions myself
1. If during a NW, and LO  is awake but not crying do I leave him or would I pu/pd to get him to go back to sleep so he doesn't create a habit of waking..
2.  Pupd should be used as a last resort.  If I can have him sleep by shush pat then ok to do so?
3.  What is considered "calm" before putting back down ?  Completely quiet with no crying at all, and completely relaxed  with no  squirming?  Or a little bit of moaning or mantra cry acceptable at pd?
4.  How long when baby is calm should I give before putting back down?  1min?   Some time lo became quiet but 30 seconds later  resumed crying again
5.  After pd and he begins crying is it OK to try to shush pat to sleep if he will allow it or should I continue to pupd until he is quiet upon placing back to bed and no longer fighting sleep?

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2017, 17:04:09 pm »
I should add the only reason why I picked him up was because after he fed at 140 he fell asleep nursing.  Upon placing him back in bed he awoke and only wanted to nurse to sleep again. I did not follow a strict pupd, but was only trying to calm him which just took 2 hours to do

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2017, 09:00:35 am »
I know you've said before that your Lo doesn't spit up so you don't suspect reflux but have you considered silent reflux? My DS had silent reflux, barley any spit up although when he got to his worst he would bring up milk 3hrs after a feed - but the symptoms are perhaps not so obvious.  It's just that you do have a lot of NWs and disturbance there which sounds like possible reflux to me.  When they are in pain it's pretty much impossible to do anything other than hold them so they know they are not alone. I had that many a night until my DS' reflux was under control with meds.

Let me try to answer your questions:
I have read read the post on pu/pd, and following Henry's dad's thread, but have a few questions myself
I need to point out that H's Dad is a thread about a LO who is around 10 months old now - the age difference is pretty big.  It's great to read through other threads for ideas and tips but do take this into account. We don't really suggest PUPD for 4 month old babies.  With shush/pat though you DO pick up when they are upset and you DO put down and continue shush/pat in the cot when they are ready for it.
Reflux babies don't do so well with lots of picking up and putting down, it's like shaking a soda bottle and can aggravate the reflux acid.  Your LO may not have reflux...but then again, might.

1. If during a NW, and LO  is awake but not crying do I leave him or would I pu/pd to get him to go back to sleep so he doesn't create a habit of waking..
Leave him if he is quiet.  Stepping in too soon doesn't help with sleep training, he will call if he needs you. PUPD or shush/pat don't force your LO into sleep, they just let LO know you are there when they are upset or frustrated.


2.  Pupd should be used as a last resort.  If I can have him sleep by shush pat then ok to do so?
Certainly shush/pat is the first choice method.  Even in H's Dad thread they have supported LO in the cot with a firm hand and patting or adapted to help LO know they are there.

3.  What is considered "calm" before putting back down ?  Completely quiet with no crying at all, and completely relaxed  with no  squirming?  Or a little bit of moaning or mantra cry acceptable at pd?
It really depends on what stage your LO is at. Independent sleepers can actually grizzly and fuss because they want to be put down and left to sleep.  On the other hand a LO who cannot self settle might need to be shush/patted all the way to sleep in arms and then transferred to the cot where shush/pat continues for a further 20 mins into deep sleep.
This is something you learn about your own LO and perhaps figure out through trial and error.

4.  How long when baby is calm should I give before putting back down?  1min?   Some time lo became quiet but 30 seconds later  resumed crying again
There is no timing with shush/pat other than you keep in mind your end goal of getting LO to sleep in the cot and learning to self sooth. LOs don't always need picking up, they can be soothed in the cot but if he is kicking up a huge fuss and crying hard of course you need to pick up and calm him.  Even a fully independent sleeper can have times they need to be held for long periods and a lot more help to calm down if something is bothering them (teeth, illness, reflux).

5.  After pd and he begins crying is it OK to try to shush pat to sleep if he will allow it or should I continue to pupd until he is quiet upon placing back to bed and no longer fighting sleep?
Yes, use shush/pat. Even LOs who are sleep trained using PUPD need a "lesser" support in the cot either a firm hand on them or patting or verbal reassurance with a key word etc.



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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2017, 19:15:31 pm »
We had our 4 month doctors appointment today. His doctor said he does not have reflux, but believes that due go him being hospitalized for pneumonia for 5 days in the beginning of January,  she believes that the ordeal may have been traumatic to him, which could be the case of his wakings.   She says she see this sometimes in young infants and in some cases it takes weeks to months for babies to get back in their routines.  Looking back at his daily log,  the frequent wakings did begin to occur after we got back from the hospital.   Perhaps a coincidence that it coincides also with the 4 months sleep regression.?
To add to this,  most recently I noticed that hE has out grown his sleepers and is having a growth spurt.   

So many variables.    :-\   I'm not sure which is the correct answer to solving these night wakings.  I had increase his  A time to 2 hours now. And he still wakes at 30m.  As I watch him, right at 30m his breathing begins to quicken and he begins to rouse from sleep for about 10m and then after a heavy sigh, he is back to sleep.  Some naps he sleeps though and can sometimes sleep to 2 hrs,  other naps I have to help him by patting.
Last night he again had 6 night wakings.  Sometimes I can get him to go back to sleep by patting, other times he only want to nurse. 
I wish I could see how much he is taking in,  I really don't want to resort to pumping and bottle feeding

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2017, 19:46:04 pm »
I wish I could see how much he is taking in,  I really don't want to resort to pumping and bottle feeding
I only have a second now but if he is growing, having wet nappies and poops, then he's getting plenty.  The numbers don't matter :D

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2017, 22:18:47 pm »
she believes that the ordeal may have been traumatic to him, which could be the case of his wakings.   She says she see this sometimes in young infants and in some cases it takes weeks to months for babies to get back in their routines.
My DS was in hospital for 4 days at 10 months old and I found after this he was kind of like a new born for a while in terms of needing a lot of extra attention and help, night feeds which he had not had in months and it was the first time I hear his hunger cry.  From my own experience I do feel LOs take a good while to get over illnesses and to make up for any lost calories too.

As I watch him, right at 30m his breathing begins to quicken and he begins to rouse from sleep for about 10m and then after a heavy sigh, he is back to sleep. 
This sounds totally normal to me. Los do wake at the transition and might go immediately back to sleep or be awake for a little time before going back to sleep - it is the same for adults about 5 times per night, we just don't remember it.  Of course it would be better if he didn't need any help but some help to transition is also normal for young babies through routine changes and sleep training or getting back on track.


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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2017, 01:00:15 am »
Too bad babies don't have a reset button. ;D 
I had to give him some ibuprofen to relieve some of the pain he has from his immunizations .  He has been extra clingy today and fussy.   Maybe this will help him sleep a little longer.  Perhaps he will remember what it feels like to sleep a 4 hour stretch again and continue it. 

He is definitely growing .....4cm in 1 month!  So It is definitely not my supply.

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2017, 18:45:13 pm »
I had to give him some ibuprofen to relieve some of the pain he has from his immunizations
Sleep always went off track with vaccinations here - either more sleepy when I wasn't expecting or not sleepy at the right time.
There are so many thing which come along to disrupt routine aren't there!?


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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2017, 08:40:47 am »
We are on a 4 hour easy now for the last 9 days. 
LOs naps are not too bad.  He is waking at the 30m mark and still needs help with the transition, but I can extend his sleep usually to 2 hours.
My issue still is the nights.  I am wondering if he is sleeping too much during the day..  even with the 2hr, 2hr, CN

He never sleeps longer then 2h50m at night, and he doesn't always wake hungry,  I will usually shush pat him to sleep, but some nights like tonight he is just awake .  And I've tried shush pat him for 30m only for him to rouse up again.  If I leave him in his bassinet, he will fuss for 2 or 3 hours until the next feeding.  Then if course fall asleep on the breast.

How do I extend his sleep so that he is sleeping longer stretches? He can't be getting a restorative night sleep. 
I feel I am at a standstill with this sleep training, and have to take a next step.  I just don't know what that is.   I feel by this point he should understand how to sleep now. 

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2017, 18:56:54 pm »
When he is fussing in the  night is he crying an "I need you" cry?


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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #33 on: February 18, 2017, 00:18:44 am »
First it's an I'm  awake cry, so I leave him, and he coos and babbles sucks on his fingers plays with the bassinet for a bit, on and off fussy ing to see if he can settles himself back to sleep and then it turns after about 5-10min into a come and get me cry.  That's when I will come reswaddle, tell him it's time to sleep put him on his side and start the shush pat. 
I will feed him if it's been 3 hours but I am wondering if I should stretch that out to 4hrs .

Last  for instance he was up from 2am to 4am  .  Just awake and alert, not crying out for food.  It wasn't actually until I tried to intervene one hour into  his middle of the night playtime that he began to cry.  And then it took me an hour to put him back to sleep.  I didn't feed him because I had just fed him at 1am.  He finally went to sleep at 4am  and woke at 645.   

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #34 on: February 18, 2017, 09:06:12 am »
You might be right about getting a bit too much day sleep.  Two 2hr naps and a CN of 45 min might be a bit too much for some LOs and the long NW sounds more on teh UT side rather than OT side.
You can do a couple of things:
- leave it, Tracy said if LO is not calling for you or doing an I need you cry then leave them and that it is normal to have periods of wakefulness in the night, he can learn to go back to sleep on his own.
- reduce the CN down to a shorter CN
- cut the CN totally as two 2hr naps may be enough - usually babies wait until 6 months to drop to 2 naps but 2 long naps of 2hr (4hr total) is more sleep than 2 naps of 1.5hr plus a CN (3hr 45 total) which is what many do.


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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #35 on: March 09, 2017, 23:01:03 pm »
Well I have spent the last few weeks trying to test what the issue is with my LOs sleep.
He is almost 5.5 months already (where has the time gone), and he still will not sleep longer then 3 hr stretches, and still only averages 2.5 hours.
He is also getting over an illness, which messed up our training, as he was up frequently to nurse.

As of today
His first nap of the day is usually 2 hours, his 2nd nap is usually 1.5 hours, and his last nap is never longer then 30m
I've tried to shorten his morning nap as well for a week, and it makes no difference.
The thing is if I only give him only the 2 naps, he won't last for his bedtime.
He always has a bath at 630, nurses at 7 and will often fall asleep by 8pm.  I am trying to give him an earlier bedtime, but sometimes he fights sleep so much.

With regard to his night wakings I've tried to let him try to fall asleep on his own, but he just won't.  It usually begins ok with him playing with his feet (so cute), but then he will start to get more fussy, and begin crying for me to help him sleep.   I still have to shush pat, but lately this is becoming more difficult as he now prefers to have his arms out of the swaddle. 
I am wondering if I should try to feed him formula before bed in hopes that he will be more satisfied and sleep longer?  I hear its a myth.
LO hasn't started solids yet, and will not until he is 6 months.

I wish he would sleep longer stretches by now. 

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Re: Baby cries as soon as being swaddled
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2017, 13:29:00 pm »
I am wondering if I should try to feed him formula before bed in hopes that he will be more satisfied and sleep longer?  I hear its a myth.
Many BF babies are doing a longer stretch of night sleep at this age but I'd guess waking every 3hrs for food can also be normal too. A long stretch is about 5 hrs which is classed as sleeping through the night believe it or not.
I see fewer night feeds and longer stretches of sleep with formula fed babies on the boards but honestly I wouldn't suggest trying formula before BT without giving it serious thought. Your body is designed to increase your milk supply over night. I don't claim to know much about BF as I had a disastrous attempt but I would suggest getting further support with this before making any decision - you wouldn't want your supply to drop.

Usually introducing solids doesn't help extend sleep, often people think it will.

Would you like to post on the BF board to discuss your thoughts and issues with night feeds?
Breast Feeding

Your naps look GREAT by the way!  Wish we'd had those naps at that age :)