Baby cries as soon as being swaddled

[leesa001]

Should I go back to giving the Pacifier?   He does have a strong need to suckle.   When he was born he had sucking bkisters on his fistside romantic sucking in the womb.
maybe give it to him during the wind down routine or during his A TIME?

[jessmum46]

At night I know perhaps you have been trying to break a feed to sleep dependence but I do think you may be unnecessarily making this harder on yourself by waking him when he falls asleep feeding.  If it's a genuine night feed due to hunger, it really doesn't matter that he falls asleep on the breast.  Just put him down and get yourself back to sleep quickly! 

I think perhaps what you want to avoid however is feeding quite so often - I would set yourself some rough rules that you can stick to when you're struggling to think in the middle of the night.  If he can go 3h between feeds in the day, he should be able to do that at night.  So looking at your night I would have done as you did to begin with, and tried a feed at 7.45pm when he woke if he really didn't eat at bedtime, but put him down asleep if he fell asleep on you.  It was likely an OT waking (typically wakings in the first few hours after bedtime are due to over tiredness).  If he'd fed reasonably at bedtime I would have just gone for a resettle, no feed.  The next wake at 10.55 I'd have fed as that was 3h from last feed and put straight back down.  I wouldn't have fed at 12.20 (only 1.5 after his last feed) or the 4.58 wakings, but would have tried at the others. 

Just as a thought - I know you mentioned that he is not teething or unwell, but does he suffer with any tummy troubles or any symptoms suggesting reflux?

From the paci perspective I kind of think it's up to you.  Pros would be it would be something for him to suck, and when the time comes it's reasonably easy to wean/get rid of with a bit of persistence.  Would help you stretch out the feeds too.  Cons would be that it can very easily become a prop and until he is able to replug independently (from 7-8 months) you may be up several times per night putting it back in.  If he is a very sucky baby he will find something of his own to suck (thumb, wrist, fingers, lovey) given time so really I think it's your call x

[leesa001]

Last night was bad as well.  And he woke up at 545 ready to go!

The day went ok  he had 1 nap for 1.5hrs and then 2 hrs.  The 3rd nap he only slept 45 and wouldn't take the the shush pat, so I gave him another nap around 6 and he slept for only 25 minutes (I had dropped something in the kitchen which I believe is what woke him)
Bedtime he nursed or 15 minutes but he onky slept from 8 for 45 min 
Then he cried for an hour straight while I tried to shush pat,  and pick up.    I tried to give him a bottle thinking my supply might have been low, but he only took 1oz.  After trying some more, I offered the breast again, and he fell asleep right away at 950
S 950--1230 (3h20m)
E 5 minutes fell asleep on breast put him back in the crib,  didn't have energy to waje and shush
S 1240-230 (1h50m) tried to shush back to sleep but wasn't having it, so I fed him
E 10 min again fell asleep on breast 
S 240-440 (2hrs0
Woke up at 350 but he must have nodded off back to sleep.
S 450-550  was wide  awake  would not fall back asleep

When he woke and lifted his legs  he did let some gas go, but he's not screaming upon waking,  he is breaking out of his swaddle, and babbling a little before calling out to me,   so I don't velieve it's gas that's truly bothering him,
He very seldom spits up so I don't believe it's reflux either.
The reason I was waking him before putting back to sleep was because I though he was associating the breast to get back to sleep and using me as a prop.   I'm torn between giving him the pacifier, because it only worked some of the time,  other times he wouldnt only settle for the real thing!   I thought if I eliminated the props he would sleep longer stretches at night, but it doesn't seem to make a difference.  So frustrating .  He is in the midle of a wonderweek, .  But if he can sleep through the transitions during the day he should be able to sleep through them at night as well, no?

What should I do with the nw and early wakings when  he is all smiles, and if I turn him on his side to begin shush ing and patting it's only then that he begins crying at me?

[jessmum46]

(((Hugs))), the broken nights are hard work. 

But if he can sleep through the transitions during the day he should be able to sleep through them at night as well, no?

Not necessarily.  Sleep at night and during naps are (I understand) organised quite differently in the brain.  It's possible to nap in one way and sleep at night in completely another.  If feeding every time he wakes at night is what he has become accustomed to, then he may well continue to wake fully at transitions looking for the breast to soothe himself back to sleep.

To put that in context though - at his age I would still expect him to wake 2-3 times in a 12h night for a feed.  He really is still very little and some people feel more comfortable just feeding if there is any doubt, and leaving weaning night feeds until a little later down the line once LO is established on solids.  It's up to you which approach you choose really

What should I do with the nw and early wakings when  he is all smiles, and if I turn him on his side to begin shush ing and patting it's only then that he begins crying at me?

Unless he is upset I would actually ignore him totally.  He may well wake, play for a while, then go back to sleep.  If he gets upset and needs you that's different, but provided he is happy just let him get on with it.

[leesa001]

The last 2 nights have been the same.   Never sleeping longer then 2h45m.  I don't want to nurse him but then think to myself, it's 1/2hr to his next feeding,  if I shush pat for 15 minutes and he falls asleep he's just going to wake up hungry again 10-15m later.  But it looks as though it's not making a difference in me feeding him because he's still waking up anyway. 

Also his naps are getting shorter again waking 30 m in.  Should I increase his awake time again?   It's now 1h45m
And when he does wake at 30m and won't fall back asleep should I consider that the beginning of his A time and clock 1h45m from that point, or should I keep him awake until his next scheduled nap?   
I don't want him to get too overtired and risk ruining his night sleep as bad as it is already, but I also don't want him waking from his naps out if habit either

[creations]

Based on previous A times and nap lengths I would increase A time to 2hrs now. See if he needs help to transition through to the next cycle again (W2S if needed) and hopefully those naps will extend to a good length again.

And when he does wake at 30m and won't fall back asleep should I consider that the beginning of his A time and clock 1h45m from that point, or should I keep him awake until his next scheduled nap?   

This is your choice. You can do it either way and see what happens.
In the BW books when Tracy was sleep training she kept them up to the next scheduled nap time so it was a very long A time as it included all the time they were awake when they should have been sleeping plus the A time and then back for the nap.  This is really useful in sleep training but it can lead to OT due to very long A times.  Most people who know LO can self settle are more likely to count the A time from when LO wakes after a short nap and put down again after the A time and no more.  If you like you can even split it and see how he does with a longer A time - if it leads to better naps or OT naps.

[leesa001]

Thank you.
I have been trying this last week to extend lo awake time to 1h50m  sometimes even to 2hrs.  He will be sometimes so tired that he wikl be crying in my arms anr as soon aas he hits the cot, with just a few shushses hes past out.  The issue I am having is that 1.  Either he is not sleeping the full 2 hours, (sometimes only 1h20m) and 2.  He is hungry at 3,5 hours and can't make it to 4 hour easy.

Is it possible to have an 4 hour easy with an A time of 2 hours, but E every 3.5?  If so, i am having trouble figuring out a 7 to 7 schedule.

He is still having night wakings of every 2.5 hours on average.  I shush pat him back to sleep, and not feed him unless it has been 3hours.  I hope he will break this habit soon

[creations]

My DS's A times increased rapidly but his E time remained at 3hrs until he was 6 months old and had solids meals between milk feeds at which point the milk feeds gradually extended naturally.  So, yes, you can run a shorter E time if needed.  You just have to fit it around naps and if needed feed early before the nap, leave a few mins A before sleep (or do a nappy change) so you don't start feeding to sleep.
It isnot easy to show you a routine if the naps are different lengths, some 1hr 20 and some longer but here is a rough example:

WU 7
E 7
A 2hr
S 9 - 10.30
E 10.30
A 2hr
S 12.30 - 2pm
E 2
etc
Mine had to eat at 3hrs but he wouldn't eat directly from waking in the morning which meant WU then 30 mins before E then the rest of A time, nap and E on WU from nap.  If I had to feed him before nap I just did, maybe even a bit less than 3hrs if the E and S were going to collide.

[leesa001]

Thank you  this is very helpful.
LO is now 4 months.
Last night was a nightmare.

He only slept for 25m in his pm nap at 4, so I had to give him a mother cat nap at 6pm (30m) and push his BT back to 730.  But he did not fall asleep until 810pm
He woke 40m in and had to pat him back to sleep.
Then he woke again at 1055, so I fed him, but woke again at 1210am, and shush back to sleep. Then again at 1am, but again woke up 15m later.  I changed his diaper, but he wasn't crying, just awake. 
I fed him again at 140am thinking he is waking out of hunger, and put him back to bed, but he was wide awake,  sucking on his fingers.  I kept reawaddling,  but his fingers still managed to come out to suckle on do I finallt gave up and just let him be.  Once he started to cry I picked him up to settle, and put back down, but he would have none if it.  After several attempts he was just screaming at me.  I held him for a good 30min before he finally gave up crying, and put him down where I continued to shush pat back to sleep.
He finally fell asleep at 330am.  I figured if he was hungry he would wake.  And did so around 550.
I fed him and he had a full feed and put him back to bed at 630 where he and i both slept in until 8

I have read read the post on pu/pd, and following Henry's dad's thread, but have a few questions myself
1. If during a NW, and LO  is awake but not crying do I leave him or would I pu/pd to get him to go back to sleep so he doesn't create a habit of waking..
2.  Pupd should be used as a last resort.  If I can have him sleep by shush pat then ok to do so?
3.  What is considered "calm" before putting back down ?  Completely quiet with no crying at all, and completely relaxed  with no  squirming?  Or a little bit of moaning or mantra cry acceptable at pd?
4.  How long when baby is calm should I give before putting back down?  1min?   Some time lo became quiet but 30 seconds later  resumed crying again
5.  After pd and he begins crying is it OK to try to shush pat to sleep if he will allow it or should I continue to pupd until he is quiet upon placing back to bed and no longer fighting sleep?

[leesa001]

I should add the only reason why I picked him up was because after he fed at 140 he fell asleep nursing.  Upon placing him back in bed he awoke and only wanted to nurse to sleep again. I did not follow a strict pupd, but was only trying to calm him which just took 2 hours to do

[creations]

I know you've said before that your Lo doesn't spit up so you don't suspect reflux but have you considered silent reflux? My DS had silent reflux, barley any spit up although when he got to his worst he would bring up milk 3hrs after a feed - but the symptoms are perhaps not so obvious.  It's just that you do have a lot of NWs and disturbance there which sounds like possible reflux to me.  When they are in pain it's pretty much impossible to do anything other than hold them so they know they are not alone. I had that many a night until my DS' reflux was under control with meds.

Let me try to answer your questions:

I have read read the post on pu/pd, and following Henry's dad's thread, but have a few questions myself

I need to point out that H's Dad is a thread about a LO who is around 10 months old now - the age difference is pretty big.  It's great to read through other threads for ideas and tips but do take this into account. We don't really suggest PUPD for 4 month old babies.  With shush/pat though you DO pick up when they are upset and you DO put down and continue shush/pat in the cot when they are ready for it.
Reflux babies don't do so well with lots of picking up and putting down, it's like shaking a soda bottle and can aggravate the reflux acid.  Your LO may not have reflux...but then again, might.

1. If during a NW, and LO  is awake but not crying do I leave him or would I pu/pd to get him to go back to sleep so he doesn't create a habit of waking..

Leave him if he is quiet.  Stepping in too soon doesn't help with sleep training, he will call if he needs you. PUPD or shush/pat don't force your LO into sleep, they just let LO know you are there when they are upset or frustrated.

2.  Pupd should be used as a last resort.  If I can have him sleep by shush pat then ok to do so?

Certainly shush/pat is the first choice method.  Even in H's Dad thread they have supported LO in the cot with a firm hand and patting or adapted to help LO know they are there.

3.  What is considered "calm" before putting back down ?  Completely quiet with no crying at all, and completely relaxed  with no  squirming?  Or a little bit of moaning or mantra cry acceptable at pd?

It really depends on what stage your LO is at. Independent sleepers can actually grizzly and fuss because they want to be put down and left to sleep.  On the other hand a LO who cannot self settle might need to be shush/patted all the way to sleep in arms and then transferred to the cot where shush/pat continues for a further 20 mins into deep sleep.
This is something you learn about your own LO and perhaps figure out through trial and error.

4.  How long when baby is calm should I give before putting back down?  1min?   Some time lo became quiet but 30 seconds later  resumed crying again

There is no timing with shush/pat other than you keep in mind your end goal of getting LO to sleep in the cot and learning to self sooth. LOs don't always need picking up, they can be soothed in the cot but if he is kicking up a huge fuss and crying hard of course you need to pick up and calm him.  Even a fully independent sleeper can have times they need to be held for long periods and a lot more help to calm down if something is bothering them (teeth, illness, reflux).

5.  After pd and he begins crying is it OK to try to shush pat to sleep if he will allow it or should I continue to pupd until he is quiet upon placing back to bed and no longer fighting sleep?

Yes, use shush/pat. Even LOs who are sleep trained using PUPD need a "lesser" support in the cot either a firm hand on them or patting or verbal reassurance with a key word etc.

[leesa001]

We had our 4 month doctors appointment today. His doctor said he does not have reflux, but believes that due go him being hospitalized for pneumonia for 5 days in the beginning of January,  she believes that the ordeal may have been traumatic to him, which could be the case of his wakings.   She says she see this sometimes in young infants and in some cases it takes weeks to months for babies to get back in their routines.  Looking back at his daily log,  the frequent wakings did begin to occur after we got back from the hospital.   Perhaps a coincidence that it coincides also with the 4 months sleep regression.?
To add to this,  most recently I noticed that hE has out grown his sleepers and is having a growth spurt.   

So many variables.       I'm not sure which is the correct answer to solving these night wakings.  I had increase his  A time to 2 hours now. And he still wakes at 30m.  As I watch him, right at 30m his breathing begins to quicken and he begins to rouse from sleep for about 10m and then after a heavy sigh, he is back to sleep.  Some naps he sleeps though and can sometimes sleep to 2 hrs,  other naps I have to help him by patting.
Last night he again had 6 night wakings.  Sometimes I can get him to go back to sleep by patting, other times he only want to nurse. 
I wish I could see how much he is taking in,  I really don't want to resort to pumping and bottle feeding

[jessmum46]

I wish I could see how much he is taking in,  I really don't want to resort to pumping and bottle feeding

I only have a second now but if he is growing, having wet nappies and poops, then he's getting plenty.  The numbers don't matter

[creations]

she believes that the ordeal may have been traumatic to him, which could be the case of his wakings.   She says she see this sometimes in young infants and in some cases it takes weeks to months for babies to get back in their routines.

My DS was in hospital for 4 days at 10 months old and I found after this he was kind of like a new born for a while in terms of needing a lot of extra attention and help, night feeds which he had not had in months and it was the first time I hear his hunger cry.  From my own experience I do feel LOs take a good while to get over illnesses and to make up for any lost calories too.

As I watch him, right at 30m his breathing begins to quicken and he begins to rouse from sleep for about 10m and then after a heavy sigh, he is back to sleep. 

This sounds totally normal to me. Los do wake at the transition and might go immediately back to sleep or be awake for a little time before going back to sleep - it is the same for adults about 5 times per night, we just don't remember it.  Of course it would be better if he didn't need any help but some help to transition is also normal for young babies through routine changes and sleep training or getting back on track.

[leesa001]

Too bad babies don't have a reset button.  
I had to give him some ibuprofen to relieve some of the pain he has from his immunizations .  He has been extra clingy today and fussy.   Maybe this will help him sleep a little longer.  Perhaps he will remember what it feels like to sleep a 4 hour stretch again and continue it. 

He is definitely growing .....4cm in 1 month!  So It is definitely not my supply.