Starting fresh with 4.5mth old. Where to start?

[malibu_nikkus]

 It's time for my terrible sleeper to sleep independently. I was doing some work with shh n pat but then we went Overseas for one month and of course it was survival when it came to sleep.  By now, all my other babies were sleep trained. How do you teach an older baby? He's my cuddliest baby by far. When tired, you can put dummy in and he will go to sleep quite quickly.  Put him in a cot, he will chill out and then cry for help to go to sleep. He is very strong and wiggly, so patting is difficult but also makes him ANGRY.  I'm at a loss of where to start to train this guy, especially when he just wants to be held or fed to sleep. He also has a paci which I find a pain too. Where to start? Where to start?

[malibu_nikkus]

I no longer have the book.  I loaned it out and can't remember who to.

[malibu_nikkus]

He feeds 3.5-4hrly.  Has 3-4 short naps about 30-40mins. Sometimes I can get him to resettle but usually only for about 10mins, however, he's generally happy how much he sleeps.

[malibu_nikkus]

Hi
My 4mth old always had crappy 30min day naps.  Since jetlag has kicked in from overseas travel.  He has three 30-45min naps during the day (which he usually does). Then he is ready for bed at 6.30pm.  He then wakes hourly ALL night and is hard to resettle after about 3am.  I tend to feed when he wakes as I feel our priority is sleep.  From about midnight I bring him into bed with me, to try and increase his sleep length. In the past this would bug me a good 4hr block but even doing this I get one hour.

How do I fix my broken baby? He is miserable and usually such a happy, chilled guy. I even tried paracetamol and it did nothing.

[malibu_nikkus]

Is there a gentler approach? I got him to sleep ok, but trying to resettle him in the cot after 45min nap, he screamed and SCREAMED for 30+mins.  What do I do? I generally hold his hand or chest as he gets cranky with patting. He is screaming so much I feel like it's as bad as cry it out. He is so overtired!!!

What do I do?

[Katet]

Has he been sick at all, It might be worth getting his ears checked, my DS2 went through a stage of really horrid sleep/screaming until he passed out & after 2 nights I took him to the Dr & he had bulging ear drums, yet he hadn't even been sick or pulled at his ears on anything.

[malibu_nikkus]

Thanks Kate. I was wondering about this as he got an ear infection on the way flying. Although no temp this time around, I wonder if the flight messed his ears up again. Poor buddy

[jessmum46]

How long ago and how far did you travel?  I'll be honest it sounds like more than just jet lag....we've travelled quite a bit with large time differences and never suffered with that much waking does he have any tummy troubles, reflux, allergies?  (((Hugs)))

[Katet]

Thanks Kate. I was wondering about this as he got an ear infection on the way flying. Although no temp this time around, I wonder if the flight messed his ears up again. Poor buddy

Neither of my boys ever got temps with ear issues, we didn't even know DS1 had long term glue ear until he couldn't hear & the ENT said by the look of his ears he'd probably had issues since a baby (probably why he was a poor sleeper) & we didn't find out until he was almost 6yo.

[malibu_nikkus]

Thanks Kate. Most of my kids get infections without temps too. Will head to doc tomorrow. He's reflux is flaring up too from foods I ate on the plane, so he's spitting up lots. Gluten gives him reflux. It must've snuck in somewhere. This prob isn't helping the case for sleeping.

[Erin M]

Hi there!  Just merged a few threads together to get all the info in one place.  Hope you make out ok at the doctor!

[malibu_nikkus]

Sooo. The doc said one ear is congested. He's on antibiotics and a nasal spray.  Night sleep has improved, but day naps still shocking. I can now get him to sleep with shh n pat, but he wakes after 30mins no matter what the wake time is (he has always done this). If he seems tired, I pat like I do to put him to sleep, but he just screams and screams and refuses to go back to sleep even though he is tired and really needs to. If I don't try to pat him to sleep and just hang by the cot, he will just chill out and play with his hands or sometimes will cry until I put my hand on his chest, he then plays with my hand.  He NEVER attempts to put himself to sleep. I watch his cues carefully, but honestly, he shows very little. Maybe at 2.5hrs he will grizzle sometimes, but not often.  I recently stayed with my family who babysit babies often. They also commented that he just shows no signs of tiredness. Ugh!

[malibu_nikkus]

When he is screaming and fighting being put back to sleep, do I keep pushing it and his long for?

[jessmum46]

Honestly I would go with whatever causes the least stress!! If it winds both of you up to try to extend the nap then just go with the short naps for now. If he's happy enough on them it won't hurt him otherwise I'd set a time limit, say 10 mins, and if no sign of a resettle at that point just get him up and move on x

[malibu_nikkus]

Slight problem. He's waking every 2hrs at night, EVERY 2 HOURS! And then hourly from 4am. I'm trying hard to not feed to sleep, but honestly, nothing seems to work. From 4am, he also doesn't seem tired enough.  I wonder if he wants to drop a nap, but if so, how will that work if he only takes 30min naps?

[jessmum46]

Is his reflux under control??  That would be my first thought...waking so frequently is usually more than just routine, especially if A times/naps aren't wildly out for his age.  Is he on any sort of meds?  (((Hugs)))

[malibu_nikkus]

Thanks. He is on reflux meds. Hmm.

[malibu_nikkus]

Until about 1am he will do two 3hr sleeps, then drop to waking two hourly.

[jessmum46]

OK I just read back and I see your LO isn't an independent sleeper (sorry these threads were merged so I'd missed that).  Tell me - where are you up to with an approach to sleep training?  3h wakes and then 2h towards morning could also be lack of independent sleep skills...

[malibu_nikkus]

At the moment, I'm up to patting to sleep. Paci and pat. There is no attempt on his behalf to self settle. I don't know where we went wrong. At around 6 weeks, he would occasionally self settle, but now, I feel like I'm going yo be patting him to sleep for the rest  of his life. When he wakes at night, I'm quite strict. I'll feed if it's been 3hrs since last feed, but otherwise, I'll put paci in and just put my hand on him and he will go to sleep (if not, I pat). If I put paci in and walk away, he will cry.

He still naps 30mins with one 40 min naps thrown in there this week. I cannot for the life of me, get him to resettle. Even if he seem really tired, I just can't. If I put my hand on him, he will play with it, grab it and intently observe it. Eventually after about 20mins or so, I get him up and we continue our day.

[malibu_nikkus]

This is the first time I've used a paci with my kids, I wonder if this is partly to blame. I wish we'd never used one, honestly. He's reliant on it that's for sure!

[jessmum46]

If I put my hand on him, he will play with it, grab it and intently observe it. Eventually after about 20mins or so, I get him up and we continue our day.

This sounds a bit like he is undertired for his naps....did you want to post your routine?

The paci could certainly be part of the issue.  It will be another couple of months or so before he can learn to replug it himself but you may want to start encouraging him to do that.  If you choose to keep the paci you can work on gradually patting less/lighter/more slowly/for a shorter time.  If you choose to get rid of the paci you could think about using PUPD?

[malibu_nikkus]

I've wondered about undertiredness too, however, he does this even after an overtired 40min nap (I know he is overtired because we've been out and missed his sleep timmso he's been up 3hrs). Actaually he did this at 2am this morning when I tried to put him back sleep, he played with my hand in the dark and then kept pulling out him s paci.   I just don't know what to do re:naps. At three month, at four months, I thought it was fine to spend the extra time, thus neglecting my toddler a bit, and spend focussed time on sleep training so I'd get to the point of putting him down and independently nap. I'm still here at 5mths (way longer than my other kids needed), frustrated, fed up, as is my toddler. It's not fair on my other four kids that I'm constantly in the room settling or resettling. I've given up on the third nap of the day. He goes in the carrier so I can be there with the kids. I hope this doesn't set us back even more.

[malibu_nikkus]

Honestly, our days routine looks different most days. I'll post an average.

7am wake
9.15 shows tired signs, goes to bed. Patted to sleep and asleep by 9.30/9.45
10.15 wake
10.30ish feed
12.15 shows tired signs (grizzling), bed, asleep by 12.45
1.45 wake
2pm feed
4.15 tired, tried to settle in bed
4.45 slept the best nap he's ever slept for ONE HOUR in the carrier
5.45 wake
6pm feed - GAVE REFLUX MEDICINE as I heard him silent refluxing while he slept in carrier.
7.30pm top up feed
8pm bed, needed lots of help to go to sleep, wasn't asleep until 8.30
9.15 woke. Fed
2am - WAKE AND FEED. Biggest block he's had in months
430am- woke, tried for half an hour to resettle, no luck. Feed
5.30am wake

Honestly, ready to CIO. I'm so over this!

[malibu_nikkus]

At 5.30, I laid on my bed next to his  cot (he sleeps in my room) and shh aloud. He went back to sleep quite quickly. Slept till 7.30

[malibu_nikkus]

Baha. First nap of the day, he put himself to sleep. I put him down when he grizzled. He was asleep by about 2.45hrs wake time. He of course slept 30mins though.

[jessmum46]

(((hugs))), it is super-frustrating sometimes, especially in the 4-6 month phase of annoying naps .  CIO isn't the answer though, we've all had that thought at times I'm sure but the fact he settled himself this morning tells us he can do it   I'm wondering, he's 5 months and a week isn't he??  DD was all done with the 3-2 by the time she hit 6 months and easily on 3h A time by around 5.5m.  Could he possibly need some longer A times?  I know you got a 30 mins naps today after 2h45 A time but that could easily be built-up OT rather than the A time being wrong per se....

Looking through the routine you posted, the first A was 2h30/45 - nap 45-60 mins (typical UT territory - though I'm assuming the last 15-30 mins of that A time were in bed trying to settle and fairly low-key).  I think then you probably got in a bit of an UT/OT loop because of the short nap and by the end of the day just struggled because of that.  I would probably suggest trying to stick to a consistent put down for first nap at the 2h30 mark, and see where that gets you after a few days, then possibly bump to put down at 2h45 if nap isn't consistently longer than 45 mins or so.

I think it's fine by the way for 3rd nap to be in the carrier at this stage - it will be gone soon!  Keep it short so bedtime doesn't get too late - he probably won't need a full A time at the end of the day in any case

[malibu_nikkus]

Soooo. How do I work this long awake time and feeds? I fed at 6.30, then was settling around 9.15. 30mins later, he still wasn't asleep and I was concerned of hunger.  I then fed him and he fell asleep, undoing all my hard work at teaching him to self settle. How can I stop this from happening? I thought about introducing a top up feed before settling, BUT, I don't want him to start snacking, and I never know when to feed him next (3.5- 4hrs from top up feed or original feed?).

[jessmum46]

It's tricky when they are little....but certainly with my DD I found as she went towards the 3-2 she could easily do 4.5-5h between first two feeds, and the feeds bunched together later in the day.  I would say though if you are going to worry about hunger to the extent it stops you seeing the settling through, introducing a top-up is the better plan, say 30 mins before settling.  Are you bottle feeding?  Just offer 1-2oz, it's just a bit to get through to the next feed and it will be gone very soon once solids start to be in the mix.  I wouldn't stress so much about snacking at this stage, once solids begin they really do eat every 1-2h anyway!  With A times increasing you don't need to stick strictly to 3.5-4h between feeds.  The day just basically becomes a pattern of wake, eat, activity, sleep, wake, eat.....the exact gaps between feeds don't so much matter x