Advice for 18 month sleep issues

[albers30]

So sleep has been a struggle for my now almost 18 month old since the day she was born.  She is the happiest most energetic baby I've ever met.  The only time she gets upset is when you try to make her sleep.  Her current schedule is as follows.

Wake 7-730am
Activity
Lunch 1130 or 12
Nap 12 or 1230 generally for 90 minutes give or take
Activity
Dinner 530 or 6
Bath
Bedtime routine starts somewhere between 7 and 730 and consists of reading saying our goodnights and maybe a song or two.
(She has been on this schedule since about 11 months of age)

It usually takes at least a half hour with her alone in her room to get her to sleep but can take up to 45-60 minutes.  This is getting frustrating because I have twin 4 year olds who need tending to to get to bed at a reasonable time as well and my husband is often not home from work to help.  Its also frustrating that at this age she still can't go to sleep without someone present in the room with her.  For several months she had been going to sleep independently for her nap but now that has become a fight again as well.  We've done the gradual weaning and for months now have been stuck at the standing just inside the door until she is asleep.  If you even start to crack the door to leave she is immediately up and screaming her head off.  She is a very feisty and opinionated girl and it is definitely a cry of stubbornness, I don't want to go to bed or I don't want mommy to leave not a cry of fear or sadness or fatigue.  I need some suggestions on ways to keep moving forward with independent sleeping with her before I go crazy as this process is starting to wear on me since we seem to be stuck in a rut.  The next step of moving out the door with the door open ect isn't really an option since the twins are generally running around making noise which just gets her riled up.  Other thoughts?

[cath~]

If she's been on this routine since 11 months it might be time for a tweak, either a later BT or capping the nap.  Perhaps she's not quite tired enough at BT.  Does she nod off any better in the evening after a shorter nap?

[albers30]

No it doesn't matter if she naps 30 minutes or 2 hours it's still the same and we've tried 8 o'clock bedtime and it's no different. There have been no nap days and 9 o clock bedtimes that go the same. Now if she's super tired we might not have to stand in there as long before she drifts off but we still have to stand in her room until she is fully asleep.

[cath~]

if she's super tired we might not have to stand in there as long before she drifts off but we still have to stand in her room until she is fully asleep.

hmmm

It sounds like she could be a little UT at BT.  I think IIWY I might first try capping the nap or a later BT (or waking earlier in the morning, if you can) to see if you can get her nodding off more quickly, still with you in the room though.

Once (if) you can do that, then I'd try working on getting her to nod off w/o you in the room.  I'm not sure I'd try working on independent sleep before then.  She sounds similar to my DD1 who was like that when UT at BT.

I need some suggestions on ways to keep moving forward with independent sleeping with her before I go crazy as this process is starting to wear on me since we seem to be stuck in a rut.  The next step of moving out the door with the door open ect isn't really an option since the twins are generally running around making noise which just gets her riled up.  Other thoughts?

Hmm,  it's tricky with older ones isn't it.  Once she's (hopefully!) nodding off more quickly, is there a quiet(er) activity you could give your twins to do whilst you sort this out.  Even if it's just watching TV for a bit?  I have a similar age gap (although just one older one, not twins!) and ended up letting my older one watch some gentle kids TV while I got my younger one to sleep.  She still had stories after that, so it wasn't TV immediately before bed, and it didn't seem to affect her BT either.

Not saying this is the "right" thing to do by any means, but probably just how I'd approach it.  Others might have other ideas though.

[albers30]

So that's exactly what I do. Everyone gets their baths and ready for bed then the twins sit on the couch and watch a movie while I put Violet to bed. Only with two of them it's rare they remain quiet. I'm with Violet so long that they're getting to bed too late which is starting to create some daytime behavior issues for the twin that needs her sleep a little more. That aside, I pushed back violets bedtime 45-60 the past few nights and it's actually been worse getting her to sleep. She lays down for a bit then gets up and starts jumping up and down in her crib and then she's been waking frequently after going to bed too. She has always been super hard to put to bed at night from the day she was born so I think it's just a learned behavior or her personality to fight it no matter what so I just don't know what I can do to help break that habit of fighting nighttime sleep.

[Martini~]

Hmmm I would say that it's a combination of low sleep needs and sleep prop. So I would be tempted to cap the nap or push BT and at the same time go for sleep training using wiwo, so you can make twins ready to bed and come to her in intervals of 1-2-3min, whatever she needs. If you don't want to push BT maybe it's worth waking her a tad earlier in the morning?

[albers30]

I do agree she is a low sleep needs baby and that having someone present in her room to sleep is a definite prop.  She was such a difficult baby to get to sleep when she was little that there was always a miriad of things to get her to sleep I'm sure that's why she has such an attachment thats so hard to break but I do think its time that we work on breaking it.  I can probably push bedtime a little but not much more.  Morning wake ups vary somewhat anyway depending on when the twins get up, if its a school day for them or work day for me etc. so I'm not sure I can change that much.  I probably need to cap her nap its just hard to sacrifice that quiet time for me which allows me to get my office work done but I think that probably needs to happen if I don't want to push out bedtime.  Out of necessity I have done the WIWO for the past couple of days as she drug on bedtime and I had to get the twins to bed.  She starts screaming before I even get to the door generally so I know thats not ideal and I try not to let it go more then 5 minutes tops but for me to get out and get anything done with the twins I can't just walk back in immediately.  This has been carrying on for over and hour until I finally get the twins to bed and am able to just stand outside her door until she's asleep.  Hopefully this will start to improve but I have not seen much change yet.  Thoughts?

[Martini~]

It's fine Honey. Do you have a baby monitor with Talk option? Can you speak to her through it? It could be a good way of letting her know you will come.

[albers30]

I do, that's a good idea I hadn't thought of. I'll give it a try. Thanks for the support. I've been shamed on here many times for leaving her while crying even for brief periods  so it's nice to have reassurance and understanding. With the young twins and a husband who works a lot I'm often in unusual and difficult situations.

[Martini~]

Honey - it would be so great if we could raise our children in the way we dream about.... But this is not realistic at all! You have other members of the family, there is you in all of it and normal daily struggles so it's worth remembering that we should always try to be better but not to be ashamed when somethings go not as planned.

Keeping fingers crossed and let us know how it is going!

[cath~]

  I probably need to cap her nap its just hard to sacrifice that quiet time for me which allows me to get my office work done but I think that probably needs to happen if I don't want to push out bedtime.

yeah, it's hard giving up that nap.  But I think often people find that is the best way to go.  Lessen daytime sleep to lengthen nighttime sleep.  Often seems to result in happier more well-rested kids IME.

ETA - sounds like an earlier BT for your youngest (by capping her nap) would also help you with getting your twins to bed at a more reasonable time for them.  You might then get a bit more evening time for yourself!

If you do try capping the nap, and LO is reluctant to wake up, it can be worth trying different times as LOs can wake/be woken more easily at different stages in their sleep cycle.  How long does your LO usually nap for?

((hugs)) though and please don't feel bad for things you've tried in the past.  The point is you're doing your best.  Your LO is old enough now to understand what is going on when you're out of the room and why (with twins), and that you do come back.  Have you tried playing some music to help her relax and wind down (once she's in her bed, I mean).  Perhaps that would help keep her happier when you're out of the room/away with the twins?

[albers30]

She's been fighting her nap a little lately and often sleeping just 30-45 minutes when it used to be a 90 minute or sometimes more nap so I think she's on her way to wanting to drop it anyway. By 2 1/2 the twins had given up maps and she's a much lower sleep needs kid then them so I figured by 2 if not before she'd be done with them. I'm fine with giving up nap if it means an earlier easier bedtime. She definitely is aware of what's going on when I'm not in the room and I think that's part of the problem and why a lot of it is just behavioral that she wants our attention. She can be a very demanding child and likes to be the center of attention, she's got a big personality which is good because she's not overshadowed by the twins, which I was afraid for as they tend to get a lot of attention everywhere we go, but it also makes life more difficult at times. Anyway, I did recently or one of those animals that plays music and such that she can turn on and off in her crib to see if that would help distract her and keep her more content alone in her bed. We'll see. Thanks for the support.

[cath~]

Sounds good she's so assertive then but hard work now for you

Keep us posted with how you're getting on x

[albers30]

So we are making very slow progress at bedtime.  After several weeks now I've gotten to the point where I can stand outside the doorway with the door open until she's asleep with minimal fussing and crying as long as I don't walk away or shut the door.  It still is taking a long time of wind down to get to this point and this is the same whether she naps or not.  There was a stretch in there where she was really fighting her nap so I just let her skip it.  When she did this she kept wanting to nob off around 3 or 4 and generally there was no stopping her from nodding off at this point but I didn't let her sleep more then 15 minutes give or take so it wouldn't throw off her bedtime (often she was up on her own in 20 minutes anyway.  It didn't matter whether it was this kind of no nap day or a 90 minute nap day which is what she does at school and I have no control over this bed time goes the same.  I guess I'll keep plugging away like this unless you have other suggestions. 

On a side note she has one other night time issue that has needed addressed as well and I wavered on whether to address one issue then the other but decided I might as well bite the bullit and tackle both since they might be feeding into each other.  Because of my desire to get a better nights sleep she developed a bad habit as a baby of coming to bed with me in the middle of the night. It took just one rough night of not allowing her to come to bed with me to break her tantrum habit of wanting out of her room to mine.  However, in staying in her room she was up every 2-3 hours calling for me and would take anywhere from 10-60 minutes to get setter back to sleep.  This has progressively gotten worse since we started to the point now where I can't hardly leave her room and she's back up crying for me.  Its the contact she's craving at night and I don't know how to help her with this.  She has a blankie and a stuffed animal and we've tried various crib things to try and distract her but none have worked at bedtime or night time and while at bedtime we're making progress on going to sleep without out presence at night there is no sleeping if we are physically in contact with her now.  Thoughts and suggestions on where to go from here are greatly appreciated as I quickly running out of steam with the lack of sleep at night now and its just getting worse and not any better.

[cath~]

After several weeks now I've gotten to the point where I can stand outside the doorway with the door open until she's asleep

I know it doesn't feel like much, but you've made progress so that is great

It still is taking a long time of wind down to get to this point and this is the same whether she naps or not.

what kind of wind down do you do and for how long are you outside her door before she nods off?  do you have the impression that the winddown helps and is needed?  if it doesn't seem to be making much difference, perhaps try shortening it or taking some bits out, to get her into bed sooner? 

Now you're outside her door, could you try waiting a little bit further away each night?  I think it really is a big step that she now nods off with you outside of her room and out of sight (is that right?). 

Regarding the NWs, since you've made such good progress at BT I'd try the same with NWs, e.g. do WIWO when she's upset and tell her you'll wait outside her door like you do at BT.  Like you described with dropping the co-sleeping, it can take a rough night (or maybe a few) at first whilst you establish the new norm, but if you're consistent she should start to accept it.  And with WIWO she will know that you do come and comfort her when she is upset and needs you.

What is her mood like during the day?  Does she show signs on SA ATM?  It can be a common time for it, with both or either of developmental changes and teething being the culprit.  Could there be any teething (canines?) troubling her which could cause the NWs?