Help for 6 month old boy that won't settle except when cuddled.

[little gremlin]

Hi, Gremlins dad here.

Looking for tips in getting #2 to sleep!
Boy #1 was easy to sleep, was sleeping through the night by 6 months.
Boy #2 (17 months between them) is not the same!

He has never really settled in his cot, preferring to fall asleep cuddled in, and its difficult to put him down even when asleep as he stirs very easily then cries.

For the first 4 or 5 months we have been sharing the night babysitting duties - Dad putting baby to sleep in carrycot downstairs, then bringing upstairs in carrycot to spare room for his late evening feed, then handing over to mam somewhere between 11 and 3 depending on how tired dad is. mam often then had to take baby downstairs so mam could sleep in chair while baby slept on mam, very occasionally he would sleep for a little while in his bedside crib.

2 weeks ago we decided this wasn’t working and we had to do everything we could to get him sleeping the night in his own cot (he is now too big for the bedside crib and carrycot, so is now in the cot in 'his' room, along with a bed for whoever is looking after him).

We put in place an evening routine, low lights, bath, bottle, book and then bed, normally going down around 730 with white noise. He will then sleep for 2 to 4 hours then wake for a bottle, and waking for another bottle around another 3 to 4 hours later. The later in the night the more difficult it is to settle him, but here was a routine appearing and we had hope!

The past few nights his sleeping much worse again - he needed 3 bottles last night and wouldn’t go down in his cot from the middle of the night so ended up sleeping on mam again. (mam is keeping a log and will be able to provide more details on his sleep)

Tonight dad is looking after him as mam is shattered. He went down at 730, woke at 1020, had a bottle, and i tried putting him back down at 1045. He wouldn’t go down, doing his usual thing of screaming as soon as he was put down in the cot. When picked up he settles within seconds. Picked up / put down with white noise till 1125 when he eventually settled, white noise stopped at 1132 and he stirred again (grrrr!), but went back down once i put the white noise on. White noise stopped again at 1155 and he stirred slightly but stayed asleep.

Looking for advice on how we can get him to settle while down in his cot as nothing seems to be working, he does not seem to have any ability to self soothe and settle himself at all. Mam will be along giving some more info later.

[jessmum46]

Hiya and welcome   It would be good to see what a typical day's routine is for your little one when you have time to post it, as often routine issues make it harder to get little ones settling on their own.  There's a useful link here: Starting EASY - all you need to know and more! particularly the sleep section which has some ideas for teaching self-settling.  How is he getting to sleep at bedtime right now?  Is he being held until asleep then put down, or is he going to sleep in the cot?  Knowing exactly what's going on currently can help us make a plan with you for moving forwards

[little gremlin]

Hi, thanks for getting back. Dad here again.

Last night he went down ok first of all, but after his feed around 1020 i used the pick up put down method (which we have both been trying to use, apart from when he won't go down in the middle of the night as it wakes his older brother and is exhausting!). This took around 40 minutes before he went down. He settles very quickly after being picked up, but cries almost immediately after being put down...

I'll ask mam to post his routine, she has been keeping a decent log of his sleep the past week or two, so should have something to post later or tomorrow.

Thanks again.

[jessmum46]

he went down ok first of all

That's good   Did he settle with PUPD or cuddles?  This is the time to work on the self-settling - if he goes to sleep at bedtime on his own, he will more likely do it in the night too.  Consistency is key though - if sometimes he gets cuddles at night wakings and sometimes not (I do get the older sibling thing - what about trying some white noise??) then this will likely take quite a lot longer.  Would you be able to commit a stretch of a few days to being totally consistent?

[little gremlin]

Hi it's mum here now. I do think the problem is his routine during the day or lack of. Our day is mostly structured around our 2 year old. Here's our typical day.
6.30am wake up
7.30 breakfast
8.30-9 milk
10-10.30 he was having a nap around 2 hours after waking but now even if he seems tired I can't get him to settle, so we go out somewhere to keep the toddler amused like the park or softplay etc - he will sleep in the car or pushchair. If we are out walking he will sleep for longer or if we go somewhere in car he will sleep on way out and way home and sometimes he will stay asleep when we get home. In total he could have anything from 20mins to 1hr30 sleep in the morning.
12.00 lunch and milk
if we have lunch out he will sleep on way home otherwise he normally has a nap around 2ish in the house while our toddler is napping too. but somedays if he has slept a lot in the morning when we've been out and about i can't always get him to sleep again.
4pm dinner
5pm milk
6pm bath followed by story and milk. He normally falls asleep with his milk as he is so tired after not much sleep all afternoon.
He wakes crying at least once around 8-9pm, then settles by being cuddled and white noise and will sleep until midnight/1am when he has milk. I cuddle him until he sleeps and put him down.
He then wakes again around 3/4am and has more milk. When i put him down, even though he is sleeping, he sense being put down and wakes crying, or wakes after a few minutes crying. This sometimes takes an hour to get settled again and after that doesn't sleep more than an hour without waking when I either have to put the white noise back on or pick him up cuddle him back to sleep, leaving the white noise on for at least 15 mins after he's gone done.

[jessmum46]

Thanks for the extra info

he was having a nap around 2 hours after waking but now even if he seems tired I can't get him to settle

That's probably because 2h is quite a short awake time for a baby this age, typical for babies on a BW routine would be around 3h at 6 months.  So with a 6.30am WU, we'd expect first nap around 9.30am, perhaps slightly later for a lower sleep needs baby.

if we have lunch out he will sleep on way home otherwise he normally has a nap around 2ish in the house

What sort of length nap do you get from him?  I'm guessing when he sleeps more in the morning, 2pm is probably too early to put him down hence him not settling, then being very OT by bedtime.  If he's only slept a short time in the morning do you get a better afternoon nap?  Could you possibly note down what actually happens for a few days and post it for us to look at?

It's tough with another child in the mix but I wonder could you possibly give us an idea of your toddler's typical day, and let's see if we can come up with a routine (roughly) that might allow you to get out and about, but also get them both down in the afternoon at the same time to give you a break?  A standard BW routine with 3h A time would be something like:

WU 6.30
Nap 9.30-11
Nap 2-3.30
BT 6.30

but many people make a short morning nap and longer nap after lunch work well - that may be a better thing to aim for?

I do think as well as the routine you would need to commit to tackling independent sleep to see a consistent improvement in your nights. Have you had a look at the FAQs and read the info on PUPD or gradual withdrawal?

[little gremlin]

Hi, Dad here

What sort of length nap do you get from him?

Mornings 30mins, very occasionally 1hr, afternoons the same

Could you possibly note down what actually happens for a few days and post it for us to look at?

Detail for 3 days below, note he always goes to sleep in arms, never goes down awake.

Saturday

19:20 Slept 5 hrs 40 min


Sunday

01:25 Slept 2 hrs 5 min
03:50 Slept 46 min
04:48 Slept 1 hr 39 min
10:00 Slept 34 min
13:15 Slept 49 min
18:38 Slept 42 min
19:20 Slept 46 min
20:20 Slept 10 min
20:40 Slept 3 hrs 17 min


Monday

00:20 Slept 12 min
00:37 Slept 2 hrs 16 min
03:55 Slept 8 min
04:12 Slept 1 hr 47 min
08:50 Slept 1 hr 5 min
11:20 Slept 40 min
14:10 Slept 29 min
18:45 Slept 2 hrs
20:50 Slept 39 min
23:30 Slept 4 hrs 14 min


Tuesday

23:30 Slept 4 hrs 14 min
04:10 Slept 2 hrs 20 min,Woke few times and stirred a lot too
10:01 Slept 23 min
12:50 Slept 55 min
18:45 Slept 1 hr 44 min
20:45 Slept 3 hrs 5 min


Toddler’s typical day,

up at 630 to 7
breakfast 8
play indoors for 2 hrs while get dressed and housework
go out to park or similar to occupy toddler for a couple of hours, approx 10–12. sometimes lunch out.
1230 lunch
130 to 2 goes for afternoon nap and wakes 3 to 330. 1 to 130 sleep, sometimes slow going to sleep but he is happy in cot and chatters away.
if wakes at 3, an activity in house e.g. paints. if wakes at 330, need to afternoon tea at 4.
dad comes home around 5ish and plays with them.
up to bath at 6, then bedroom for bottle and book, normally goes to bed around 7 to 730. occasionally wakes in night, when that happens sometimes a hand on his chest settles him. occasionally stands up inconsolable and takes a while to settle him, sometimes bringing him to our bed, sometimes nothing will help!

Have you had a look at the FAQs and read the info on PUPD

I have tried the PUPD but not consistently, last time i gave up after 1 1/4 hrs....Baby settles very quickly in arms, but when being put down starts crying immediately, often before even touching the cot. i put my hand on him and tap and shush but no help.
there was one night around a month go that i put him down sleepy and he rolled over and went to sleep, bot never before or since...

PS Is still having two or three bottles in the night.

[jessmum46]

Sorry it's taken me a little while to get back to you - I wanted to make sure I had read everything properly

The most obvious thing in the day is (as you pointed out) is lack of consistency, though obviously it can be very hard to balance the needs of two and I totally get that some days the 'ideal' is just not possible!  What I'm thinking though is with an 'average' A time of say 3h for this age you could go for a nap around 3h after WU (9/9.30) before you head out, and then aim for another in the afternoon?

So say with a 'typical' BW routine...

WU 6/6.30
Nap 9/9.30-10.30/11
Nap 1.30/2-3/3.30
BT 6/6.30

Or with a short am/long pm routine (works for many at this age...)

WU 6/6.30
Nap 9/9.30 for about 45 mins (if you could get up and about a bit earlier this could be on the way to the park?)
Nap 12/12.30ish - though could be later if you get a longer morning nap in
BT 6.30ish?

Routine will only fix so much though and it's likely you may need to do some sort of (gentle) sleep training to improve the nights.  PUPD is likely to work better if the routine is right though so possibly work on that to begin with, see how the nights go as a result, then tackle PUPD when you are ready?

[little gremlin]

Dad here.

at the moment they both stir around the same times, normally around 630 till 700, but sometimes as early as 6 - should he be woken up in the morning at a regular time?

for his daytime naps he only has a 30 mins nap and and a 1 hr nap - can be either way round morning / afternoon, so only has half the total sleep you have in the timings below.

PS, last night was awful, toddler woke around 100 and i couldn't him settle till around 3. Baby was unsettled all night: -

down 645
woke 715, needed settling, down 730
woke for bottle at 10
long time to settle, seemed quite awake, went down 11
woke at around 115, another bottle, down at 200
woke at around 230, couldn't settle him even cuddled in
dad took over, i couldn't settle him well, gave him bottle at 330 (his third of the night...!), eventually got him sleeping in cot, woke after 20 minutes ( ) picked him back up and took him back into bed and he wouldnt settle even cuddled in, so only slept for 20 to 30 minute periods till 6 when toddler and baby both woke up....

[jessmum46]

Oh dear, that sounds like a rough night   Is there anything causing him discomfort do you think - reflux, gas, tummy issues, teeth?

I've never woken mine in the morning unless we've needed to get out somewhere - certainly people do and it can be a helpful way of keeping the day on track, but I've always liked to encourage a lie-in where possible!!

for his daytime naps he only has a 30 mins nap and and a 1 hr nap - can be either way round morning / afternoon, so only has half the total sleep you have in the timings below.

I get this   Obviously the routines I posted were examples, each baby will be different.  But often babies start to sleep more when they are having age-appropriate A times (rather than staying awake too long and getting overtired) and settling independently.  I would suggest 3h A time is about here an average 6 month old would be - so a nap that happens significantly earlier will often be short or even refused, a nap happening far later will often be short (through over tiredness) or unsettled.  Perhaps as a starter you could try sticking with around 3h A time (give or take 15 mins) for a few days and see if that changes things?

[little gremlin]

Dad here again.
Thanks Katherine, i am off work next week, so there will be two of us at home to try and get him into a routine.

One thing that i am concerned about is - he happily sleeps while being held, but is very unhappy when put down in the cot. This makes me think that the routines (while something we will definitely try) may not fix the issue of him not liking being in his cot.

What suggestions do you (or any other members here) have to help get him settled in his cot?

My wife read on here that PUPD should be a last resort, is that correct? What sleep training methods are there (we are definitely not going down the controlled crying route, despite how close i have come when he has being waking constantly night after night...!)

[jessmum46]

At 6 months you could use shh pat as a starter - Shush-pat - How to  BW methods are not no-cry methods, but shh pat is very gentle and you would be with him throughout giving reassurance and soothing him while he learns to sleep somewhere different.  We don't recommend CC so nobody here will suggest that   The other thing you could do which may help is having the cot as a 'nice' place to be - so spend some A time in there with a few toys etc and Mum/Dad popping in and out of the room to build his confidence in there. 

PUPD is a last resort yes - really only to be used when babies find shh pat too annoying or stimulating (older babies may find this) or have not made progress despite an appropriate routine and consistency in using shh pat.  The most important thing with any sort of sleep training is consistency and having a plan that you feel that you can stick to even when things are hard.  I'm more than happy to help with that if you need it