Author Topic: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?  (Read 977 times)

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Offline airam

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Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« on: March 09, 2017, 08:51:15 am »
I'm confused. I understand now that if he wakes up at the 40-45 minute mark, I should go in and resettle him. But what about if he wakes up a little after an hour (before 1.5hrs which I heard is needed to have a restorative nap)?

I'm reading that a 10 month old should have 2-3 hours of nap sleep but should I let him decide? Or should I force a 1.5 nap at least and let the other be?

Im asking because he was taking 1 2hr nap  and 1 for 1hr (or 45mins) both in my arms before starting nap training...now they are getting shorter as a try to ST for naps. Today he woke up from the first nap yawning.

Should I have tried to put him down again? After how long?

Edit: I actually dont get this. If he sleeps for a good chunk of time but it isn't enough, do I force it by PUPD again? Or should I let him play and try again within an hour?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2017, 12:32:22 pm by airam »

Offline FPT23

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2017, 21:33:05 pm »
Hi hun :)

Well, nap lengths vary for every baby. They are all diff but around that age you want to aim for still two good naps but some require less day sleep too. Many hugs.

How far have you came in ST?

Could you please post your daily routine in EASY format? :)

It could be just a matter of tweaking the day, if you find ST has gone better.

Xo
Fabi






Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2017, 07:13:28 am »
Thank you for you reply.

Yes, he's not taking nearly as long but there still is a lot of resistance and crying even when I'm sure he's tired. I try to keep A times 3hrs+.

This was his schedule for most of the past days:

NF 3am/6am and goes back to sleep until
E:WU 715~
A
S:10am-11am (it was 2 hrs before nap training and he's seems tired afterwards)
-bc of NT he will take longer to go down...the first nap he when down at 1040 nd slept until 1150 so I changed the day but BT was still 7pm
-the second day was closer to this
E
A
S:2pm-3pm/2.30-3.30pm
E
A
S:645/7pm

I guess he was really tired last night and actually slept the entire night (he woke up at 8pm bc he was too hot). Woke at 644am for his feed and fell back asleep until 830am. This was unusual and since I know he needed it (I know I broke the rules), I just let him sleep to see. Of course, I was up at every fuss/cry and other every sound he made throughout the night.

Today might be like this if he naps for 1hr or less again
E: 830am
a
S:1130-1230
e
a
S:330-430
e
a
S:~715pm

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 07:43:23 am »
38 minute nap!

...naps are getting shorter even though with longer A times! Just before ST, Lo was still napping  around the 2-2.5hr mark. I would nurse to sleep and he would sleep right away...could this be OT since Im trying to move up his A times to what's "normal" for his age?

Offline FPT23

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 21:56:58 pm »
Hi hun

Average A times- BOOKMARK ME!

These are the average ATs but every baby is different.

Your EASY above you said he woke at 7:15 and you did a nap at 10? I would try pushing that first AT out but only push in 15mins increments for a few days. Just one AT not all day.

Are you trying to still ST? What is the prop? Nursing to sleep?

There is no such thing as breaking rules hun! :) you do what works!
Fabi






Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2017, 06:43:38 am »
It seems our A times are ok. Yes, on the lower end but I think its ok since right before STing, he was still on less A time and he fell asleep just fine (in my arms and with nursing, but he would fall asleep instantly so it wasn't the nursing).

Yes, I am still Sting and I dont nurse to sleep (since starting). I sometimes feed him again after an A but I always do another A after E and not S right away. For the routine, I just close the curtains, turn on sound (which I really want to stop), sit with him in the dark room vertically, say it's sleep time and put him in the bed. He rolls over and if he stays on his tummy, I pat him for a bit until I feel he settles (rare). If he sits up and cries (most likely), I PUPD until he stays on his tummy, then pat.

I have a question. In the morning, he will wake up for what I think is WU time, but will then fall asleep while feeding. This doesn't happen all the time but enough that I feel he needs to sleep.

a. do I allow him to sleep and push the day/nap times back?

b. do I keep him up? if so, and since he's so tired, do I keep the A time long (3hrs) or shorten it?


Edit: The 38minte naps seem to have been because of external reasons. I think my LO has a sleep cycle of about 50 minutes (not the 30/45 minute mentioned here). Then he seems to go for about 10minutes after that. I know this be cause he takes a deep breath around that time and then starts moving his limbs. When he used to sleep in my arms, he would have a jolt at around 45-50-60 minutes and wake up. I got smarter just before starting ST and would switch him to the other arm and he would fall back asleep for another hr.

Now I want to try W2S to entend his naps since he was doing one 2hr nap before nap training and he's so tired after his naps.

I tried it a few times but I just can't get it right. I even woke him up once and the other times he barely stirs. Any tips?
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 16:51:46 pm by airam »

Offline MasynSpencerElliotte

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2017, 00:43:53 am »
Just an aside - why stop using white noise? We still do at home and my kids are 10, 8, & 3. It is a wonderful sleep cue for them and they are all able to sleep other places without it.
Heidi




Offline FPT23

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2017, 03:22:00 am »
IRT the WU time.... I would keep the same WU time as consistent as possibly so days become seemingly more usual. Or at least start and end more or less at the same time.

Well, most babies still take an under tired nap when given.. especially when helped. I really do feel you need to push those ATs. Baby needs to be tired enough to get through the cycles... assuming STing has been teaching him individual sleep. I can't really give much opinions with nursing to sleep or sleep training since I don't have much experience. I breast fed but never was a prop for us.

As far as the naps are concerned, I would do your best to just nail that sleep training and teach baby to sleep independently. In which case I still personally would suggest longer ATs :)

Many hugs!

Xo
Fabi






Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2017, 05:42:49 am »
Ok, I'll try to extend his A times starting with 15 mins today. I'm hesitant because I sometimes get busy and extend it anyway and he still naps for the same time. Also because he still seems sleepy around the 2.5hr mark.

I'll try to keep the WU consistent. We are ok today for around 7am-715am.

STing is coming along. For BT, he was putting himself to sleep most days without my help. Just a little pat and I'd be out. Now, after starting nap training, he seems to need me to pat for much longer. I had to do this for naps because of the training since it was harder for him but now he seems to require that for BT too. Ugh. I think he's teething now since he started waking up 2-3 times a night again...or is that because of naps too.

I can't really give much opinions with nursing to sleep or sleep training since I don't have much experience. I breast fed but never was a prop for us.


Xo

I didn't understand this part. From what I explained, am I using it as a prop? I nurse/pump/feed after naps and/or always with an A time between it and sleep. I haven't nursed to sleep since STing, as I mentioned before.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 06:49:49 am by airam »

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2017, 05:45:07 am »
Just an aside - why stop using white noise? We still do at home and my kids are 10, 8, & 3. It is a wonderful sleep cue for them and they are all able to sleep other places without it.

I really wanted to but there are studies that show it can be damaging. I don't use full volume anyway but my husband isn't having it.

Offline ginger428

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2017, 19:16:32 pm »
Hi there!
I also had to ST for naps similar to what you did and in the end it worked! Naps will lengthen and your routine will settle once ST is completely successful and baby is sleeping independently.  The difficulty with the 9-11 month stage is the huge physical development that happens around this stage and like you mentioned, teething! Oh the joys!

To summarize what you responded:
you are keeping WU the same at 7-7:15
A times 3hr
patting to sleep for BT and naps
waking a few times a night
Sounds great what you're doing with EAS- eating after sleep not right before

My suggestions:
-Set nap times and BT- suggestion on easy below. (he may not fall asleep until 3.30 or 4.00 A  from start of nap, but it may pay off if you try it the same time every day, and it will eventually work so that he starts dozing off by himself at the BEGINNING of nap time)
-Set WU time within 15 mins
-For the patting, I got this great advice from a friend here... we would pat, then slow down, and lift hand. Then counted until baby started fussing. If it was 30 seconds, I would pat, then lift, and wait AT LEAST 30 seconds to pat again. It worked for us, as we got up to the 100's and eventually he didn't need any patting and he put himself to sleep.
-During hard core teething- inflamed gums and whites of teeth showing through gums, crazy drooling and gnawing- I medicated for naps as well as night sleep. Tylenol for naps, motrin at night.

How does that sound? Did I miss anything?

I agree with FPT that the sleep cycles will connect given the right routine and knowing how to sleep independently. If you think your son's cycle is around 50 mins, I would go in at the 40 mark and once he twitches, lay your hand on his back firmly.  I had to do this and even had to apply pressure to his legs and arms with my body... like I was holding him laying down, until his breathing was slow again. I can't think of a reason not to do this while ST, but I do know that ST can help babies do this on their own. I would only do w2s for 3 days or so, then see how he does on his own. Btw, once my son was able to fall asleep on his own, when he woke at 30-45 min or so, I would wait another 30 min to see if he'll fall back asleep. If he started crying, I would go in and try the patting method, then leave again. Again, after things settle, we'll see how much he is napping total and go from there.

Here's a description of what BW suggests, I just had to modify it bc my baby would almost always wake up.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)


Sample routine for your son:
WU 7- 7:15
Nap1- 10:15 (start at 10:15, it may take 30+ mins, but just start here every day for at least a week)
Nap 2- 2:30 (if am nap was 30-60 min), 3:00 (if am nap was 60+ min)

I know this is a hard push, but we'll be here to support you.  Come and tell us how your days are going and we can tweek if necessary. But at the minimum, we suggest sticking with a plan for 3 days, but with ST I would say 5-7 days, depending on how it goes.

« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 20:21:14 pm by ginger413 »

Offline *Ali*

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #11 on: March 13, 2017, 21:48:31 pm »
If you're using PUPD make sure you're doing it in an age appropriate way. There's almost no PU by 10mo. How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

Also, by 10mo all 3 of mine had started the transition to 1 nap and were doing one long nap of 1.5-2hrs and a shorter nap of 45 minutes. There is more info here that may help From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)

« Last Edit: March 13, 2017, 21:54:13 pm by *Ali* »



Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2017, 07:51:05 am »
Increasing A times yesterday was a huge disaster. First time ever with a morning nap of only 30mins and then again for only about 40mins. So much for me thinking his cycle was 50mins...it might be 30mins and he is (WAS!) able to settle into the next 30min cycle by himself but not for a second time to make it to the 1.5hr I wanted...I DONT CARE ANYMORE...I just want him back to his hour naps like it was when I started this post. I should have been grateful instead of messing around with things.


My suggestions:
-Set nap times and BT- suggestion on easy below. (he may not fall asleep until 3.30 or 4.00 A  from start of nap, but it may pay off if you try it the same time every day, and it will eventually work so that he starts dozing off by himself at the BEGINNING of nap time)
-Set WU time within 15 mins
-For the patting, I got this great advice from a friend here... we would pat, then slow down, and lift hand. Then counted until baby started fussing. If it was 30 seconds, I would pat, then lift, and wait AT LEAST 30 seconds to pat again. It worked for us, as we got up to the 100's and eventually he didn't need any patting and he put himself to sleep.
-During hard core teething- inflamed gums and whites of teeth showing through gums, crazy drooling and gnawing- I medicated for naps as well as night sleep. Tylenol for naps, motrin at night.

How does that sound? Did I miss anything?

I agree with FPT that the sleep cycles will connect given the right routine and knowing how to sleep independently. If you think your son's cycle is around 50 mins, I would go in at the 40 mark and once he twitches, lay your hand on his back firmly.  I had to do this and even had to apply pressure to his legs and arms with my body... like I was holding him laying down, until his breathing was slow again. I can't think of a reason not to do this while ST, but I do know that ST can help babies do this on their own. I would only do w2s for 3 days or so, then see how he does on his own. Btw, once my son was able to fall asleep on his own, when he woke at 30-45 min or so, I would wait another 30 min to see if he'll fall back asleep. If he started crying, I would go in and try the patting method, then leave again. Again, after things settle, we'll see how much he is napping total and go from there.

Here's a description of what BW suggests, I just had to modify it bc my baby would almost always wake up.
How do I address habitual wakings? (wake-to-sleep and other methods)


Sample routine for your son:
WU 7- 7:15
Nap1- 10:15 (start at 10:15, it may take 30+ mins, but just start here every day for at least a week)
Nap 2- 2:30 (if am nap was 30-60 min), 3:00 (if am nap was 60+ min)

I know this is a hard push, but we'll be here to support you.  Come and tell us how your days are going and we can tweek if necessary. But at the minimum, we suggest sticking with a plan for 3 days, but with ST I would say 5-7 days, depending on how it goes.



Thank you for dropping by and your suggestions.

Funny, this is the exact plan I had for today...even down to the patting method. I started it yesterday by lifting my hand quicker and at first he would try to get up but fall down the second he felt my hand (look how he's playing me! lol). I just put him down for his first nap (1015) with this method and it worked. Thank the Lord!

Hopefully his naps are better today and at least go back to the normal 1hr. I dont know if I should just observe today, go in and w2s or just be there to resettle if he wakes up before he cries.

If he wakes up at 30/40mins again, he sits up and starts crying right away. My baby does not play or babble...he wants out right away. What should I do? Should I just keep saying "it's sleep time" and make him lay down (he will just cry harder and sit up again)?



Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2017, 07:56:13 am »
If you're using PUPD make sure you're doing it in an age appropriate way. There's almost no PU by 10mo. How to PU/PD (inc age adaptations)

Also, by 10mo all 3 of mine had started the transition to 1 nap and were doing one long nap of 1.5-2hrs and a shorter nap of 45 minutes. There is more info here that may help From 2 to 1 nap transition (10-12m and older)



Thanks! You're right, I forgot about some of that.

As for transitioning to 1 nap. I know my baby isn't ready for that. He is so tired, poor thing. I am sure he needs more than he's getting. He needs 3hrs at least but he just wont sleep more than 1hr (before!) on his bed. I think w2s is the best thing right now. Or at least, that's what I need to try first with a good routine.

Offline *Ali*

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2017, 10:27:26 am »
The transition isn't instant.  It takes months of one nap shortening until it's gone usually. Has he always been very high sleep needs?  He's getting over 12hrs at night isn't he so 3hrs plus during the day would be high end of sleep requirements ime.

Waking at 30 minutes doesn't mean he has a 30 minute sleep cycle. It usually means he was too OT to complete the usual 45 minute cycle.  That would make sense if he's had a sudden jump in A time. Waking 45min-1hr normally means he's UT and didn't get back into a deep sleep for the next cycle. It can also be because he's looking for some kind of prop when he's in light sleep.

I wouldn't let one day put you off. We usually say you need to try a new routine for at least 3 days to see if it works.  It won't happen overnight.

Don't worry, he's not playing you. He's just looking for comfort and feeling your hand back on him reassures him you're there.  It's just what he needs right now ☺



Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2017, 12:17:35 pm »
The transition isn't instant.  It takes months of one nap shortening until it's gone usually. Has he always been very high sleep needs?  He's getting over 12hrs at night isn't he so 3hrs plus during the day would be high end of sleep requirements ime.

Waking at 30 minutes doesn't mean he has a 30 minute sleep cycle. It usually means he was too OT to complete the usual 45 minute cycle.  That would make sense if he's had a sudden jump in A time. Waking 45min-1hr normally means he's UT and didn't get back into a deep sleep for the next cycle. It can also be because he's looking for some kind of prop when he's in light sleep.

I wouldn't let one day put you off. We usually say you need to try a new routine for at least 3 days to see if it works.  It won't happen overnight.

Don't worry, he's not playing you. He's just looking for comfort and feeling your hand back on him reassures him you're there.  It's just what he needs right now ☺

Ok, thanks for breaking it down. This is exactly part of what I wanted to know with my first post.

I need to look into the things you all are mentioning. So far we have;

1. He's UT so I need to extend the wake times...
But if he's getting OT...what does that mean? Doesn't it mean it was too much?

2. There might be a prop...what do you think it is? I really don't think he's sleeping while I pat since he's moving his leg most of the time. Or maybe me just being there? He falls asleep by himself at BT just fine. At the start of STing, he was sleeping until about 3am when right before that (before ST), he was waking up every 2 hrs. Maybe it's habitual...he just expects me to settle him. If so, would w2s be my best option?

To answer your question, he's not getting 12hrs at night. He wakes up for feedings (for the last 3-4 days it's about 3 which might be due to teething or the fact that my supply decreased this past week) and he's usually up for about 1.5hr total. Then the fact that he may not sleep right away at BT. I try to leave him to settle and it can take up to 20minutes until I hear quiet. I'm usually not sure how long it takes him but just estimate. Plus, he may have a lot of sleep debt. I can count the amount of times he sleep for 2hrs since he was very little. I can't believe they dont tell us that these 45-1hr naps are not normal. I is/was always tired, yawning, has bags and dark circles (sometimes red) under his poor little eyes.

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2017, 12:22:39 pm »
Nap 1 update:

I went in at around 30minutes and touched him and he was about to get up. I place my hand on his back and patted (hmm...the prop?) and he fell asleep after a bit. Then I tried again to entend it but w2s didn't work then. He stirred and slept and I stayed for a bit but woke the second I left. He did sleep for 1hr.

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2017, 19:39:14 pm »
Hi!

Many hugs for the bad day :(

The push in ATs takes some time and adjusting on LOs part. Maybe he's not quite ready for one nap, no, but the "transition" begins around that age. Some LOs simply begin rejecting their 2nd nap or their first nap gets shorter and shorter... etc etc.

Ali thanks for the link on PU/PD! I learned something too- I didn't know about the age :) ty!

Airam,
If your LO is sensitive to OT and on the lower end of ATs, that's understandable. However, those naps won't increase unless LO is tired enough, kwim? If ST'ing has been successful and LO can now sleep on his own for all naps.... I would begging to gradually push those ATs and you should hopefully see some improvement and more predictability in LOs routine. Give it time but stay consistent. LO will take time adjusting to something new and it will be an it hard, but they are more adapatable and smarter than we think :) but stick with it!

Start by maybe pushing the first AT of the day ONLY... 15 mins. If after a few days you don't seen an improvement in the nap (it increases) then I would push another 15 the next few days. And so on. After that first nap seems good, work on the second AT etc etc

Many hugs-- it's a difficult age :(

Xo
Fabi






Offline ginger428

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2017, 22:27:34 pm »
I went in at around 30minutes and touched him and he was about to get up. I place my hand on his back and patted (hmm...the prop?) and he fell asleep after a bit. Then I tried again to entend it but w2s didn't work then. He stirred and slept and I stayed for a bit but woke the second I left. He did sleep for 1hr.
Yes, the patting and any support is currently a prop.  We try to gradually reduce the amount until the prop(s) are no longer needed to fall asleep.
In my experience and from what I heard, w2s usually only works in the first cycle from light to deep sleep.
1 hr is some progress even if you had to stay.  Hang in there!

1. He's UT so I need to extend the wake times...
But if he's getting OT...what does that mean? Doesn't it mean it was too much?

It might mean either that the awake time itself is too much, or he has just accumulated sleep debt/OT like you said.
I think what Fabi mentioned by extending 15 every 3 days may be a more comfortable route for you and your lo.  We can always adjust later if we find that it isn't working, and in fact realize that she needs a big push.. or not.
What do you think?

2. There might be a prop...what do you think it is? I really don't think he's sleeping while I pat since he's moving his leg most of the time. Or maybe me just being there? He falls asleep by himself at BT just fine. At the start of STing, he was sleeping until about 3am when right before that (before ST), he was waking up every 2 hrs. Maybe it's habitual...he just expects me to settle him. If so, would w2s be my best option?
When you started ST and patting again, he could have gotten accustomed to it and wanting/needing it and hence a prop.  If you can leave without a repetitive touch or your continued presence, I think he's an independent sleeper.  For ISs, night wakes are a sign of distress, OT/UT, or hunger.

At this point, I wouldn't change the 3am feeding until we get naps sorted out if it's the only one right now. Sorting the naps may make the 3am wake disappear.  Address the nw after we see some consistency with routine and naps.

Funny, this is the exact plan I had for today...even down to the patting method. I started it yesterday by lifting my hand quicker and at first he would try to get up but fall down the second he felt my hand (look how he's playing me! lol). I just put him down for his first nap (1015) with this method and it worked. Thank the Lord! Hopefully his naps are better today and at least go back to the normal 1hr. I dont know if I should just observe today, go in and w2s or just be there to resettle if he wakes up before he cries. If he wakes up at 30/40mins again, he sits up and starts crying right away. My baby does not play or babble...he wants out right away. What should I do? Should I just keep saying "it's sleep time" and make him lay down (he will just cry harder and sit up again)?
Yay for the method working, but I know that he didn't extend on his own.  That's okay. I would do w2s if he gets worked up after waking and you find it hard to put him back down. But if after 3-4 days this doesn't work, consider the modified PUPD that Ali linked and you described. When we were at this stage, I worked with him for up to 30 mins to help him get back to sleep. My goal was to help him consistently get at least an hr nap.  He finally did it on his own after a couple of weeks. I didn't expect more than an hr, but he went up to 1.10/15. The second nap was around 30-45 min and that was fine.

Offline LaraAndrea

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2017, 13:28:25 pm »
I am on the other side of the short nap hump (for now).
The advice from the forum members was very helpful.

When increasing AT I did find it got worse before it got better.
I know how it feels to want to see results right away. But if you make small changes and be consistent you will eventually see results.

I also found with my LO that she did better when we let her self soothe as compared to patting her back to sleep. Note: she fell asleep independently prior to her short nap regression.

She has had 2, 2h naps and 30-45min cat nap for the past 3 days (5monthd old).

Good luck

Hugs

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2017, 17:46:00 pm »
Thanks for all your replies. I will try to apply the advice given and update.

Reality just sunk in...I just spent over an hour trying to settle him at bedtime. I couldn't understand why the kid who I could leave with a simple "it's sleep time" and a 1 second pat would keep fussing and crying when I left him to self soothe. Well, the patting I was doing for nap training undid all the hard work we put into nights. I really thought he was playing around because I knew he didn't need me to fall asleep and I was in denial saying it was teething that caused the new nw...I feel like I'm back at square one again. Ugh...I have to get rid of this prop until he's an independent sleeper again and then work on the A times.


Offline *Ali*

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2017, 23:29:21 pm »
He's more likely to go down easily if you get the A time just right.

Pupd isn't a prop so perhaps stick with that for naps and BT? As long as you are there for him he'll get there 🙂



Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2017, 08:13:42 am »
He's more likely to go down easily if you get the A time just right.

Pupd isn't a prop so perhaps stick with that for naps and BT? As long as you are there for him he'll get there 🙂

That's the thing...what are th right A times.

I don't know if I mentioned this but I started Sting during month 9 and he was still taking 3 1hr naps in my arms every 2-2,5hrs. I only started doing 3 hr A times because that was what I was advised because it's age appropriate. He would still get tired around 2hrs. Even now, after all these weeks, he still gets tired at that mark...which almost makes me feel like I should go back. I just cant shake this feeling that all this is making him extremely OT. I'm just rolling with what everyone else is saying because Im clueless with regards to ST and schedules.

Anyway, this is the game plan...

I'm doing to start the modified PD tonight. So I just put him back down whenever he sits up and cries and only PU if he is crying hard, right? No patting, no shhing. Just PD and words of reassurance. I'll continue with tomorrows naps too. I'm just too tired to deal with all this today.

Then after he is an IS, I will try to extend the first A time by 15 mins for 3 days or so and see how that is. If it works to extend his naps, I should stick with that A time. If not, I should extend A time 1 again, now by another 15mins for a couple of days.

Does this sound right?

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2017, 12:15:32 pm »
Airam, I know how hard and absolutely exhausting this is. And having to think about it on such little sleep is painful. At the end of the day, you are the mama and can tell what baby needs at the moment. If you need a break to get caught up on sleep, do it.

Your plan sounds good to me. Keep us updated!

Getting A time right takes trial and error. But we were also trying to get to IS and lengthen naps so it was all mixed in.

Many hugs.

Offline FPT23

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2017, 19:54:05 pm »
I'm so sorry for the tough times. I do know first hand how frustrating it can be :(

Many hugs.

I agree with the above moms- getting that right AT for your LO is tricky and takes a bit to try it out. I think your plan sounds great. Positive vibes that it will work out for you both!! As easily as possible! :)

Xo
Fabi






Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2017, 07:43:14 am »
Thanks ladies.

I regressed (let him nap in my arms again) for the last couple of days due to my depression. I'm trying to be hopeful that at least this aspect will get better.

For nights, I started to just put him down if he sits and only pick up with hard cries. I say it's sleep time as a mantra...do you think this will be a prop? I want him to know I'm there without me touching him.

Naps are a bit of a struggle but I wanted to try the mantra with them to...unless it's a no no.

I have a questions. What do I do if his naps are 45 minutes or less? What do I do for 1 hr naps? Should I just let them be? and conintue to work on the schedule (increasing A times)? Do I PD again if it's anything less then a certain time?

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2017, 14:17:21 pm »
He completely refused to nap on his bed for nap 2. At first he babbled a lot and whined/cried off and on even with me there. After about 45min I left and came back and turned on the lights and did "wake up" stuff. After a bit I tried again and he just cried harder and refused. He kept lifting his tummy off the bed with his legs while his bum was in the air...I don't know what that means...maybe he was uncomfortable? I didn't know what to do because he was up since 1130am so I just let him sleep in my arms. I think he's in a very clingy phase right now. I dont know if I did the right thing.

nap 1 was for 1hr in his bed without my help...but yesterday was a mess with a 15min nap2 outside, slept from 507-615pm and bt at 8, asleep close to 840pm. wu was 711am although he was sleepy, I couldn't let him sleep because I wanted to start st today.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 14:28:29 pm by airam »

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2017, 02:01:54 am »
For us, butt lifting was always a sign of UT but who knows! What time were naps this day?
And why was his nap at 5 the day before? He refused nap 2 this day also?

Sleepy phrases are not a prop. We still use them as cues for bedtime and DS is almost 3!

If it were me, I would work on the nap schedule first. If he sleeps an hr or 45 mins, let it be for now.

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2017, 07:01:23 am »
So sorry for the late reply. This week has been a failure and I messed up so much. I can't even consider it an attempt.

I have some questions about this situation. For the past week, this is how BT looks like.

I do the routine, then place him on his bed awake. He cries right away or after a little bit. First it's a babbling cry or loud yelling/babbling. Then it turns to a cry that gradually gets louder. Sometimes he stops and babbles again. That goes on and then ends with him crying, sitting up and crying louder...this is where I either PUPD or PD. Repeat. It last from 1-1.5hrs each night. He goes to sleep around 845-9pm now with this.

1. When he is crying but still laying down, do I just let him be or do I comfort him with words? I mean, if I don't place a hand on him, he will just cry without knowing I'm there and I don't know if that's damaging. However, his cries while laying down aren't hysterical.

I'm just so confused as to when to intervene. Sometimes I just stand there and let him cry if it's not too bad and he didn't get up since it sometimes goes on and off. However, he always sits up afterwards.

2. I don't know but I feel like I messed up my "phrase". I used to just say "it's sleep time" over and over again like a mantra. But it hasn't been working to calm him since I started patting and shhing with nap training. That doesn't work either. So I started saying words from things I read to him and that calms him down...or maybe just stimulates him since he remembers the words. I say these as a mantra too...but I have to keep changing it because it doesn't seem to work. This is bad, right?

3. If naps are too short, when should bt be?....should I try for a third nap if the a time is too long?

« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 10:02:55 am by airam »

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2017, 07:48:29 am »
Sorry for another message before you had time to reply to the first.
---
Also, what do I do in this situation...

1. he always wakes up foe a feed around 6am and goes back to sleep. however, if something happens (for example last night he woke up at 945pm due to noise), he'll wake up much later...so today he woke at 644am to nurse and fell back asleep. I was going to wake him up by 730am to establish a routine but he woke at 706am due to gas pains. so he didn't really sleep since he was nursing and woke up so soon. when should nap 1 be? I was thinking 1025?

2. when he gets up from nap 1, he falls asleep again while nursing even with the lights on. do I keep him up? I know he can go up to 2.5hrs of nap1 sleep in my arms.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 10:03:00 am by airam »

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #30 on: March 29, 2017, 04:54:11 am »
How much sleep is he getting in 24hrs? And before sleep/nap training? I'm concerned he might be getting OT. Can you list the past few days of ES again?

Would you be willing to work on the BT for 2 weeks straight, without wavering, while you still offer him help with nap?

From your earlier post-
1. Has the time for him to settle decreased at all? If so, you might be making progress without realizing it. I would attend to him once he switches to an escalated cry from mantra.  Continue with gently PD and add the phrase "mommy's here. It's sleepy time, mommy's right here." You intervene with this phrase so that he knows you're there, even if you don't put down. It's alright to do this in the beginning and then as soon as you notice he lays down without your assistance, just use the phrase. Then as you notice he is more calm, wait to say the phrase, and so on until he is ok without it.

2. I would use the same phrase as for BT,  but again, would you consider tackling the BT first before working on naps. Especially if you feel stressed with "messing up" naps. Unless you are consistent, sleep training ends up being harder for everyone. Did we recommend sh/pat for naps? If so, I would do JUST a firm hold on the back and the phrase.

3. 3rd nap at this age might be difficult so I would do a really EBT (early bedtime), your established A time after the last nap. (If your share your EA again we can see when an EBT would be). . Especially since he's taking 1-1.5 hrs to fall asleep at BT and might have acculumulated OT. As for bed time, it helps to have a set BT, give or take 30 mins bc it takes the geussing game out of it. It also helps regulate their aleeo over time. However, my DS did better with A times. He's one that never tacked on sleep well and woke up the same time in the mornings. He also was/is very sensitive to OT, so I have to be on top of his sleep times.  Toddlers do better with set times I hear. I think this age is more flexible but in the next few months you want to help get a good routine established with predictable bed time.

4. (New 1.) 10:25 seems ok, I may have oushed that to 10:30/10:40 to be closer to deaired nap time.  When did he go down and how long did he sleep?
Basically- nap time give or take 15 mins won't throw you off too much.
If your goal wu is 7:30, make nap time around 11, but 10:45 on days he wakes before 7:30.

5. (New 2.) our goal is independent sleep and for him to regulate how much he needs. Are we talking after 45 mins or 1.5 hr? If he has had a good, restorative nap, then I would be sure he's fully awake and at a different place before nursing. How often does he sleep 2.5 hrs or is that recent? Possibly bc he's catching up?




Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #31 on: March 29, 2017, 09:17:01 am »
Thank you so much for your detailed reply. I actually forgot to update on ome of the things you mentioned.

I was messing up (and still am in some ways) because I didn't stick to the routine...that first week I still let him sleep in my arms because I could see he was going through developmental changes that made him get up many times at night (3-7times to every single hour) and be extra clingy.

Saturday was a bad day since I was busy and husband woke him up after 10mins of sleep and I didn't get to him until around 1pm. So I let him sleep on me on Sunday for one final time. I let him sleep in and then did an early nap 1 (after 2-2.5hrs) which he slept for 2.5hrs. Then the second nap after 3hrs for 1hr. Then bedtime was close to 8pm, I believe.

You're absolutely right. I NEED to stick to the times and not be so soft. Today (Wednesday I am, hopefully).

Just to update,

1. I started ST again on Sunday night. Just PD and my mantra phrase which I am phasing out. So I do our routine, kiss, put in bed while saying it's sleep time and touch his back. Then I do the mantra "it's sleep time" if he cries. If he sits up I put him down. If he cries hard, I've been saying "I'm here with you. You're fine".
2. He doesn't take too long to sleep. It's down to about 20mins for BT now. N2 is always worst than N1.


Monday (slept on his bed with no help or w2s from me)
735am
1046-1159
315-425
745ish

Tuesday
706
1027-1130 (without help...then he fell asleep on me while feeding until 1230)
340-509 (I wanted to wake him at 430pm but got busy...then I wanted to see if he could do 1.5hrs by himself. I was surprised since he slept a lot for nap1, though with my help)
815ish

(woke up every 2hrs because of the cold...I think)

Wednesday (so far)
720
1035

To answer youre questions...

1. It's hard to say. Night time is usually only 11hrs for him (although with my help he can sleep in to get to 12hrs). Then I have to minus all the wakes ups...it's around 3 for normal days now but can be two. If he wakes up to feed at 5am, he'll wake at 6am and then 7 something. If at 6am, then up for 7something. He seems awake while nursing at night, so I can take 1hr off that too total. With ST, it seems 1hr is his average sleep...although it's still the start. Last time it went from 1hr15 to 1hr to 45 to 30mins.

I'm hopeful, though.

2. Yes, I'm willing. I'll post what happens today. Please suggest a good bedtime and wake time and I'll try to stick to it for the next 2 weeks. From the start, I tried to make BT between 7pm and 730pm...but when he started fussing more he got to 8pm+. Then he wants to sleep in in the morning and wont want to wake up even if I turn on the lights.

3. Ok, I'll try to push the a times to 3hr30mins and see if he sleeps longer. I know he can do it. When I first started STing (end of month 8, I think), he dropped the third nap and would sleep for 2hrs in my arms and 1hr for n2. The last week, I let him sleep in my arms and he was doing 2-2.5 hrs in my arms for nap 1. On his bed, he never napped for more than 1hr on average (except yesterday's nap2!)

4. Whenever he sleeps for 1hr on his bed, he always tries to sleep again on me after waking.

ETA: I'm still looking into what's happening at night because each night there was something that happened that might have disturbed his sleep...cold, husband coming into the apartment, etc. So I'm not sure if he's waking up from habit or external reasons, although I think it's the latter. For all sleep times, I've been doing the same mantra phrase until he quiets down, then for a bit, then I leave and listen. For this last nap, I said it maybe 3 times, then left. He cried out and stopped. Then made a noise. Then I didn't hear anything after that. Does this mean he's an IS now? I hardly touch him nowadays. 
« Last Edit: March 29, 2017, 09:34:09 am by airam »

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #32 on: March 30, 2017, 09:49:19 am »
Wednesday
720
1035-1156
313-420ish
750ish

What do you think if I extend A times for N2 instead of N1? So keep A1 at 3hr and extend A2 to 3.5hrs.

It would be more convenient for us to remain consistent.

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #33 on: March 31, 2017, 07:48:42 am »
bedtime took 1hr to settle again...naps were 1hr so ot?

so he woke again at around 11pm last night. has been up every night but I think its due to external reasons... should I pd if he wakes up before his 1am/3am feed?

Offline ginger428

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #34 on: March 31, 2017, 22:14:15 pm »
Will be back later to respond to 3/29 post, but for now...

If nap 1 has lengthened again and he goes down without requiring much assistance, then yes, now try lengthening the A for the second nap.

Pd is the last resort so if requesting he lays down and your presence and sleepy phrase doesn't help, then yes, pd. But the next night, try everything else first again.

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #35 on: April 01, 2017, 07:45:30 am »
both naps are always around 1hr unless I help by keeping him down when he tries to wake up.

I cant get my mind around how the day will look like if I push nap1 to around 11 and he naps for 1.5hr+ plus a longer nap2. my ideal day would look like this but its only with 3hr a times. obviously that's not working now to extend naps...but there doesn't seem to be enough time in the day for increasing both a times, longer naps and keeping bt where it is without ut (shortening the last a time before bed). Or do you mean a short A times is ok before BT?

700am wu
10-1130
230-400
700pm bt

for now, ive been keeping wu and bt at 7am/pm.

if i'm following correctly, this is the schedule youre advising now


7am wu
1030-12
3-4
7pm bt


I wanted to keep nap 1 short and make nap2 longer since we are out on Saturday mornings and a 1hr nap seems for feasible.

anyway, to answer your questions,

1. no, nap1 is still around 1hr. some days there is resistance. some with only a few minutes.

2. by pd, I mean that if he sits up, I put a hand on this back and gentle guide him down. he usually throws himself down or goes down with my help. do you mean I shouldn't pd at all and just use my phrase and let him pd himself?
« Last Edit: April 01, 2017, 08:03:27 am by airam »

Offline *Ali*

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2017, 08:47:23 am »
Why don't you keep the first nap as it is at 1hr and extend the second A time to try for a longer pm nap if that suits better. A 1hr nap and a 1.5hr nap may well be plenty at this age.



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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2017, 06:01:45 am »
Why don't you keep the first nap as it is at 1hr and extend the second A time to try for a longer pm nap if that suits better. A 1hr nap and a 1.5hr nap may well be plenty at this age.

Honestly, I dont know anymore. It seems he's gotten used to the former schedule.

Just waiting...

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2017, 19:02:15 pm »
do you mean I shouldn't pd at all and just use my phrase and let him pd himself?

Yes if you think it's worth a try at this point... as in he's making progress and you want to see if he can do it independently.  If not, there's no rush, especially if the pd is working.