Author Topic: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?  (Read 740 times)

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Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2017, 12:17:35 pm »
The transition isn't instant.  It takes months of one nap shortening until it's gone usually. Has he always been very high sleep needs?  He's getting over 12hrs at night isn't he so 3hrs plus during the day would be high end of sleep requirements ime.

Waking at 30 minutes doesn't mean he has a 30 minute sleep cycle. It usually means he was too OT to complete the usual 45 minute cycle.  That would make sense if he's had a sudden jump in A time. Waking 45min-1hr normally means he's UT and didn't get back into a deep sleep for the next cycle. It can also be because he's looking for some kind of prop when he's in light sleep.

I wouldn't let one day put you off. We usually say you need to try a new routine for at least 3 days to see if it works.  It won't happen overnight.

Don't worry, he's not playing you. He's just looking for comfort and feeling your hand back on him reassures him you're there.  It's just what he needs right now ☺

Ok, thanks for breaking it down. This is exactly part of what I wanted to know with my first post.

I need to look into the things you all are mentioning. So far we have;

1. He's UT so I need to extend the wake times...
But if he's getting OT...what does that mean? Doesn't it mean it was too much?

2. There might be a prop...what do you think it is? I really don't think he's sleeping while I pat since he's moving his leg most of the time. Or maybe me just being there? He falls asleep by himself at BT just fine. At the start of STing, he was sleeping until about 3am when right before that (before ST), he was waking up every 2 hrs. Maybe it's habitual...he just expects me to settle him. If so, would w2s be my best option?

To answer your question, he's not getting 12hrs at night. He wakes up for feedings (for the last 3-4 days it's about 3 which might be due to teething or the fact that my supply decreased this past week) and he's usually up for about 1.5hr total. Then the fact that he may not sleep right away at BT. I try to leave him to settle and it can take up to 20minutes until I hear quiet. I'm usually not sure how long it takes him but just estimate. Plus, he may have a lot of sleep debt. I can count the amount of times he sleep for 2hrs since he was very little. I can't believe they dont tell us that these 45-1hr naps are not normal. I is/was always tired, yawning, has bags and dark circles (sometimes red) under his poor little eyes.

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2017, 12:22:39 pm »
Nap 1 update:

I went in at around 30minutes and touched him and he was about to get up. I place my hand on his back and patted (hmm...the prop?) and he fell asleep after a bit. Then I tried again to entend it but w2s didn't work then. He stirred and slept and I stayed for a bit but woke the second I left. He did sleep for 1hr.

Offline FPT23

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2017, 19:39:14 pm »
Hi!

Many hugs for the bad day :(

The push in ATs takes some time and adjusting on LOs part. Maybe he's not quite ready for one nap, no, but the "transition" begins around that age. Some LOs simply begin rejecting their 2nd nap or their first nap gets shorter and shorter... etc etc.

Ali thanks for the link on PU/PD! I learned something too- I didn't know about the age :) ty!

Airam,
If your LO is sensitive to OT and on the lower end of ATs, that's understandable. However, those naps won't increase unless LO is tired enough, kwim? If ST'ing has been successful and LO can now sleep on his own for all naps.... I would begging to gradually push those ATs and you should hopefully see some improvement and more predictability in LOs routine. Give it time but stay consistent. LO will take time adjusting to something new and it will be an it hard, but they are more adapatable and smarter than we think :) but stick with it!

Start by maybe pushing the first AT of the day ONLY... 15 mins. If after a few days you don't seen an improvement in the nap (it increases) then I would push another 15 the next few days. And so on. After that first nap seems good, work on the second AT etc etc

Many hugs-- it's a difficult age :(

Xo
Fabi






Offline ginger428

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2017, 22:27:34 pm »
I went in at around 30minutes and touched him and he was about to get up. I place my hand on his back and patted (hmm...the prop?) and he fell asleep after a bit. Then I tried again to entend it but w2s didn't work then. He stirred and slept and I stayed for a bit but woke the second I left. He did sleep for 1hr.
Yes, the patting and any support is currently a prop.  We try to gradually reduce the amount until the prop(s) are no longer needed to fall asleep.
In my experience and from what I heard, w2s usually only works in the first cycle from light to deep sleep.
1 hr is some progress even if you had to stay.  Hang in there!

1. He's UT so I need to extend the wake times...
But if he's getting OT...what does that mean? Doesn't it mean it was too much?

It might mean either that the awake time itself is too much, or he has just accumulated sleep debt/OT like you said.
I think what Fabi mentioned by extending 15 every 3 days may be a more comfortable route for you and your lo.  We can always adjust later if we find that it isn't working, and in fact realize that she needs a big push.. or not.
What do you think?

2. There might be a prop...what do you think it is? I really don't think he's sleeping while I pat since he's moving his leg most of the time. Or maybe me just being there? He falls asleep by himself at BT just fine. At the start of STing, he was sleeping until about 3am when right before that (before ST), he was waking up every 2 hrs. Maybe it's habitual...he just expects me to settle him. If so, would w2s be my best option?
When you started ST and patting again, he could have gotten accustomed to it and wanting/needing it and hence a prop.  If you can leave without a repetitive touch or your continued presence, I think he's an independent sleeper.  For ISs, night wakes are a sign of distress, OT/UT, or hunger.

At this point, I wouldn't change the 3am feeding until we get naps sorted out if it's the only one right now. Sorting the naps may make the 3am wake disappear.  Address the nw after we see some consistency with routine and naps.

Funny, this is the exact plan I had for today...even down to the patting method. I started it yesterday by lifting my hand quicker and at first he would try to get up but fall down the second he felt my hand (look how he's playing me! lol). I just put him down for his first nap (1015) with this method and it worked. Thank the Lord! Hopefully his naps are better today and at least go back to the normal 1hr. I dont know if I should just observe today, go in and w2s or just be there to resettle if he wakes up before he cries. If he wakes up at 30/40mins again, he sits up and starts crying right away. My baby does not play or babble...he wants out right away. What should I do? Should I just keep saying "it's sleep time" and make him lay down (he will just cry harder and sit up again)?
Yay for the method working, but I know that he didn't extend on his own.  That's okay. I would do w2s if he gets worked up after waking and you find it hard to put him back down. But if after 3-4 days this doesn't work, consider the modified PUPD that Ali linked and you described. When we were at this stage, I worked with him for up to 30 mins to help him get back to sleep. My goal was to help him consistently get at least an hr nap.  He finally did it on his own after a couple of weeks. I didn't expect more than an hr, but he went up to 1.10/15. The second nap was around 30-45 min and that was fine.

Offline LaraAndrea

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2017, 13:28:25 pm »
I am on the other side of the short nap hump (for now).
The advice from the forum members was very helpful.

When increasing AT I did find it got worse before it got better.
I know how it feels to want to see results right away. But if you make small changes and be consistent you will eventually see results.

I also found with my LO that she did better when we let her self soothe as compared to patting her back to sleep. Note: she fell asleep independently prior to her short nap regression.

She has had 2, 2h naps and 30-45min cat nap for the past 3 days (5monthd old).

Good luck

Hugs

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2017, 17:46:00 pm »
Thanks for all your replies. I will try to apply the advice given and update.

Reality just sunk in...I just spent over an hour trying to settle him at bedtime. I couldn't understand why the kid who I could leave with a simple "it's sleep time" and a 1 second pat would keep fussing and crying when I left him to self soothe. Well, the patting I was doing for nap training undid all the hard work we put into nights. I really thought he was playing around because I knew he didn't need me to fall asleep and I was in denial saying it was teething that caused the new nw...I feel like I'm back at square one again. Ugh...I have to get rid of this prop until he's an independent sleeper again and then work on the A times.


Offline *Ali*

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #21 on: March 15, 2017, 23:29:21 pm »
He's more likely to go down easily if you get the A time just right.

Pupd isn't a prop so perhaps stick with that for naps and BT? As long as you are there for him he'll get there 🙂



Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2017, 08:13:42 am »
He's more likely to go down easily if you get the A time just right.

Pupd isn't a prop so perhaps stick with that for naps and BT? As long as you are there for him he'll get there 🙂

That's the thing...what are th right A times.

I don't know if I mentioned this but I started Sting during month 9 and he was still taking 3 1hr naps in my arms every 2-2,5hrs. I only started doing 3 hr A times because that was what I was advised because it's age appropriate. He would still get tired around 2hrs. Even now, after all these weeks, he still gets tired at that mark...which almost makes me feel like I should go back. I just cant shake this feeling that all this is making him extremely OT. I'm just rolling with what everyone else is saying because Im clueless with regards to ST and schedules.

Anyway, this is the game plan...

I'm doing to start the modified PD tonight. So I just put him back down whenever he sits up and cries and only PU if he is crying hard, right? No patting, no shhing. Just PD and words of reassurance. I'll continue with tomorrows naps too. I'm just too tired to deal with all this today.

Then after he is an IS, I will try to extend the first A time by 15 mins for 3 days or so and see how that is. If it works to extend his naps, I should stick with that A time. If not, I should extend A time 1 again, now by another 15mins for a couple of days.

Does this sound right?

Offline ginger428

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2017, 12:15:32 pm »
Airam, I know how hard and absolutely exhausting this is. And having to think about it on such little sleep is painful. At the end of the day, you are the mama and can tell what baby needs at the moment. If you need a break to get caught up on sleep, do it.

Your plan sounds good to me. Keep us updated!

Getting A time right takes trial and error. But we were also trying to get to IS and lengthen naps so it was all mixed in.

Many hugs.

Offline FPT23

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #24 on: March 16, 2017, 19:54:05 pm »
I'm so sorry for the tough times. I do know first hand how frustrating it can be :(

Many hugs.

I agree with the above moms- getting that right AT for your LO is tricky and takes a bit to try it out. I think your plan sounds great. Positive vibes that it will work out for you both!! As easily as possible! :)

Xo
Fabi






Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #25 on: March 19, 2017, 07:43:14 am »
Thanks ladies.

I regressed (let him nap in my arms again) for the last couple of days due to my depression. I'm trying to be hopeful that at least this aspect will get better.

For nights, I started to just put him down if he sits and only pick up with hard cries. I say it's sleep time as a mantra...do you think this will be a prop? I want him to know I'm there without me touching him.

Naps are a bit of a struggle but I wanted to try the mantra with them to...unless it's a no no.

I have a questions. What do I do if his naps are 45 minutes or less? What do I do for 1 hr naps? Should I just let them be? and conintue to work on the schedule (increasing A times)? Do I PD again if it's anything less then a certain time?

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #26 on: March 19, 2017, 14:17:21 pm »
He completely refused to nap on his bed for nap 2. At first he babbled a lot and whined/cried off and on even with me there. After about 45min I left and came back and turned on the lights and did "wake up" stuff. After a bit I tried again and he just cried harder and refused. He kept lifting his tummy off the bed with his legs while his bum was in the air...I don't know what that means...maybe he was uncomfortable? I didn't know what to do because he was up since 1130am so I just let him sleep in my arms. I think he's in a very clingy phase right now. I dont know if I did the right thing.

nap 1 was for 1hr in his bed without my help...but yesterday was a mess with a 15min nap2 outside, slept from 507-615pm and bt at 8, asleep close to 840pm. wu was 711am although he was sleepy, I couldn't let him sleep because I wanted to start st today.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 14:28:29 pm by airam »

Offline ginger428

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #27 on: March 20, 2017, 02:01:54 am »
For us, butt lifting was always a sign of UT but who knows! What time were naps this day?
And why was his nap at 5 the day before? He refused nap 2 this day also?

Sleepy phrases are not a prop. We still use them as cues for bedtime and DS is almost 3!

If it were me, I would work on the nap schedule first. If he sleeps an hr or 45 mins, let it be for now.

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #28 on: March 26, 2017, 07:01:23 am »
So sorry for the late reply. This week has been a failure and I messed up so much. I can't even consider it an attempt.

I have some questions about this situation. For the past week, this is how BT looks like.

I do the routine, then place him on his bed awake. He cries right away or after a little bit. First it's a babbling cry or loud yelling/babbling. Then it turns to a cry that gradually gets louder. Sometimes he stops and babbles again. That goes on and then ends with him crying, sitting up and crying louder...this is where I either PUPD or PD. Repeat. It last from 1-1.5hrs each night. He goes to sleep around 845-9pm now with this.

1. When he is crying but still laying down, do I just let him be or do I comfort him with words? I mean, if I don't place a hand on him, he will just cry without knowing I'm there and I don't know if that's damaging. However, his cries while laying down aren't hysterical.

I'm just so confused as to when to intervene. Sometimes I just stand there and let him cry if it's not too bad and he didn't get up since it sometimes goes on and off. However, he always sits up afterwards.

2. I don't know but I feel like I messed up my "phrase". I used to just say "it's sleep time" over and over again like a mantra. But it hasn't been working to calm him since I started patting and shhing with nap training. That doesn't work either. So I started saying words from things I read to him and that calms him down...or maybe just stimulates him since he remembers the words. I say these as a mantra too...but I have to keep changing it because it doesn't seem to work. This is bad, right?

3. If naps are too short, when should bt be?....should I try for a third nap if the a time is too long?

« Last Edit: March 26, 2017, 10:02:55 am by airam »

Offline airam

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Re: Nap length for 10 month old...Is anything under 1.5hr bad?
« Reply #29 on: March 28, 2017, 07:48:29 am »
Sorry for another message before you had time to reply to the first.
---
Also, what do I do in this situation...

1. he always wakes up foe a feed around 6am and goes back to sleep. however, if something happens (for example last night he woke up at 945pm due to noise), he'll wake up much later...so today he woke at 644am to nurse and fell back asleep. I was going to wake him up by 730am to establish a routine but he woke at 706am due to gas pains. so he didn't really sleep since he was nursing and woke up so soon. when should nap 1 be? I was thinking 1025?

2. when he gets up from nap 1, he falls asleep again while nursing even with the lights on. do I keep him up? I know he can go up to 2.5hrs of nap1 sleep in my arms.
« Last Edit: March 28, 2017, 10:03:00 am by airam »