Author Topic: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now  (Read 551 times)

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Offline cvet7

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Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« on: March 11, 2017, 13:41:25 pm »
Hello,
I just came across this forum after reading about EASY routine and PU / PD sleep method.
I would be really thankful if you can give me some advice. My baby is almost 8 months old. He has colic/ stomach problems since the first day we went home from hospital ana they continued till 6 months. Now sometimes he still has some painful gases. So, unfortunately I didn't followed some strict routine, i did whatever I thought he needs at that moment, so he ate and slept at different times during the day. What is more, I cuddled him a lot, as a baby he slept only on my stomach, I rock him, so I used all bad habbits. Unfortunately, he cant fall asleep without any help. During the last two weeks the only way he falls asleep is using my breast as pacifier.
I know I made a lot of mistakes and I'd like to fix them and help my baby fall asleep on his own.

During the day I give 3 times solids and the rest is BF. He has 3 naps at different times but most of the time they are too short 30-45 min, sometimes 1 hour if I lie with him on the bed. Every night he goes to bed around 19:30 and wakes in the morning around 6-7 am but during the night he wakes around 3 times, sometimes even 4 :( and the only way to go back to sleep is if I give him my breast.

So now I know that I should make a routine, I saw some EASY samples and I will use one, and I will use the put up/put down method to make him fall asleep without using my breast during the day naps and also during the night but should I do all these changes at once? Is it good to stop giving him breast milk during the night at once. I read that the first eat in the mornig is 7 am and the last in the evening - 7pm. I think it'll be very hard for him not to eat 12 hours.
Please give me some advice where to start i how to go on.
Thank you in advance!

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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 20:12:03 pm »
Hello and welcome to BW forums :)

Firstly, please don't feel that you have made mistakes, you have done the best you could to support your baby and give him lots of Mummy's love - it is not a bad thing, only it's not so great for you when you don't get a good rest yourself.  I'm sure we can help you change that if you feel ready.

Changing LOs routine and the way they fall to sleep is not easy, it is hard work and tiring too.  Los who have been held through their naps and fed to sleep will understandable protest at the rules being changed all of a sudden. There is likely to be long days/nights to make those changes.  I suggest, if at all possible, you call in some back up, someone who can care for LO during the awake time so that you can get a little rest yourself and then you can take over again for the next nap which is the hard part.

Routine
The first stage of implementing a new routine is to begin with observation, to record what times your LO E (eats), how long he is A (active) and what time he S (sleeps).  I suggest you begin with the next WU (wake up time in the morning) and record all E, A and S throughout the day, even if they are not in that order or even if there are more Es than you think there ought to be.  Just record the times. you can then post your routine here and we can use it as a starting point for supporting you with changes which are suitable for you and your LO, we can help you to move baby from your current routine to an age appropriate routine over a period of days.  You might also be interested in this:
Starting EASY - all you need to know and more!

Sleep Training
The next thing is that there are various sleep training methods. Whilst Tracy used PUPD for babies this age, on the forums we usually suggest this as a last resort method for training.  Partly because after PUPD it is extremely useful to have another method of soothing your LO (shush/pat or adapted) and partly because PUPD can be such hard work.  When using shush/pat for instance you do pick up when baby is very upset and put down when baby is calm (or even asleep in the early days) but you wouldn't time how long you held him for, you would just continue until he calmed and then put down and continue with shush/pat in the cot.  It is a gentler approach.
Shush-pat - How to
Can a baby be too old for sh-pat?
10 Reasons You Cannot Use Pu/Pd

Props
Weaning props such as feeding to sleep can also be done in different ways. you can go cold turkey on deeding to sleep, use the sleep training method to support your LO and help him through the difficult time of change.  Or there is a gentle method which takes a little more time. Here is some info from Pantley's "no cry" method:
Gentle Removal Plan
You will see various links in the first post which will take you each section of information.  The second post in that thread has information about weaning a feed to sleep prop.  Have a look, see what you think.

Night feeds
It is very normal for a breast fed baby to still have 1 or even 2 night feeds at this age.  If you have taken your information about no night feeds from the BW books then I will advise you that our advise and support on breast feeding on the BW forums is based on the more recent research about what is best for baby.  We believe Tracy Hogg would have updated her advice had she still been around to do so.  Therefore I would suggest at the beginning stage you continue with night feeds but check the time and make sure the feeds are for hunger rather than habit/prop. If it has been 3+hrs since the last feed then go ahead and feed.  If it is less than 3hrs then use your chosen method to sooth and support whilst weaning the prop.
I can ask for someone with BF experience to stop by here if needed or you can ask additional questions on the BF board as and when you need to.

General health
You have mentioned stomach problems, do you think there is a chance of reflux? silent reflux? milk/soy intolerance or other intolerances?

I've given you quite a lot to think about and some reading homework there - please don't feel you have to read everything in one go! The links are helpful as they explain much more than I can put in one post and they give you some options about how you would like to go forward with the changes you want to make. We will be very happy to support you with these changes.

I will use the put up/put down method to make him fall asleep without using my breast during the day naps and also during the night but should I do all these changes at once?
You might decide based on further information and reading that PUPD is not the way you want to go, that's fine, and we can probably provide you with a more suitable routine and stages how to get from A to B rather than you moving directly to a sample routine - however if you did decide to go ahead as you have said here, I will advise that PUPD is  not suitable if you keep ANY props (such as feeding to sleep), therefore yes you would need to make all the changes at once.  As I have said though, this is not the only route available.

I hope this helps. Let me know your thoughts and please post your EAS times when you are ready.


Offline cvet7

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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2017, 09:20:02 am »
Thank you so much for understanding, support and help! I really appreciate it!

I will read the additional links now. I will be glad if there is softer method than PU/PD that will work so I will read more about it.
I will watch my son for some days and write down his routine - E/A/S times.
Now I am calmer about the night feedings because sometimes I see that he is really hungry and sometimes he just can't continue with the sleep on his own, so I should help him.
Thank you once again and I will write again soon.

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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2017, 19:04:30 pm »
Glad to hear you are feeling better about nights and night feeds :)

I realise I have already given you quite a lot of reading to do and you must have so little Y time to do it in!  I hope it is not too overwhelming!
Having said that...here's a relatively recent thread you might be interested in, baby was 9 months old so a little older than your LO, perhaps you will be able to see just how quickly things improved when the routine and sleep training were started.  Similarly the poster was asking about PUPD but in the end did a bit of a mixture of PUPD shush/pat and gradual withdrawal.  I'm not sure things were "perfect" by the end but certainly much improved and parents feeling more in control and better rested having better night sleep.
About to start PU/PD, but is it right to?
don't feel under any obligation to read through it, just thought you might like to see a recent example.

Here when you are ready :)


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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2017, 18:25:19 pm »
Thank you so much for your attention and willingness to help us.
I read all the information. The last thread was very helpful as the situation is so similar.
I watched every day the different times at which my LO eats and sleeps. So during the day he is ok with 2 naps, but if the second one is short (30 min) he needs another small one before night sleep. Lately the night sleep is ok - he wakes 2 or 3 times, BF and go back to sleep.
Here are the E/A/S times for a few days:
Day 1
5:45 wake up + BF but couldn't asleep.
7 am - tired, 7:30 - sleep till 8:45
9:15 - solids (170 grams)
10:45 - asleep with help of breast
11:30 - awake in very good mood
12 - solids (just a little)
14 - asleep with breast, 14:35 - awake, but I helped him to continue sleeping by rocking
15:50 - fully awake
17 - solids (125 gr)
19 - bath, massage, BF
20-20:30 - totally asleep
0 (midnight) - BF
3:20 - BF

Day 2

5:30-5:45 - awake, BF (just a little), couldn't fall asleep although he seems really sleepy
6:30 he wanted to sleep already but couldn't and start crying. I was next to him trying to comfort him but he is stretching arms, kicking legs.
7:15 - finally helped him fall asleep till 8 am
8:30 - solids
10 - sleep till 11(with breast)
12:30 - solids
13:30-14 - sleep
14-16:30 - very active
16:30 - sleep 17 - continue sleeping with help of breast
17:30- awake + solids
19 - bath, massage, sleep
Midnight - BF
2:30 - Bf

Day 3
5:30-6 - Bf, seems sleepy but can't fall asleep
7-8 - sleep
8:30 - solid
10-10:30 - sleep
11:30 -solid (180 gr)
12:30- BF + sleep till 14
14:30 - solid just a little
16-16:30 - Bf + sleep (just half an hour)
17:15- solid
19 - bath, massage, sleep
00:30 - BF
3:30 - BF

I know it's irregular and it mostly depends on his day naps. I think I make some progress because from little baby till maybe 2 weeks ago during the day he always slept in my arms (or his father's). If we leave him somewhere else, he wakes up in bad mood and can't continue sleeping. So in order to get some sleep I hold him. But now he doesn't want so much physical contact and he is able to sleep next to me in bed without being in my arms. So now when I see him yawn and start to fuss, we go to our bedroom, make it darker, put him on our bed, lie next to him and start massaging his back and head + singing. I also give him paci. A few times I was able to make him fall asleep in this way, it takes me 20-30 min. But most of the time at some point he starts crying, I can't calm him, so I BF him and he falls asleep. And I should stay in the room because after 30 min exactly he is awake and first I put again my arm on his back/ head massaging him, rocking his body and he continues sleeping. If couldn't make him sleep, BF again and continue sleeping. So the whole nap will be 1-1 1/2 hour. Sometimes it's impossible and he sleeps only 30 min but after that I can see he is not well rested.
Nights - 18:45-19 we start with bath, then massage, then turn off lights (only a little night lamp) and BF. Almost every time he falls asleep whilst BF. Then I gently put him in his cot (it's still in our bedroom), but he is awake after 30 - 60 min. I pick him up, he falls asleep again and if I put him back in his cot he wakes up almost immediately (I tried several times). Sometimes I try a lot of times to put him in his cot when he is asleep in my arms but he always wakes up immediately or after 30 min. In the end I'm so tired, I take him in our bed again. For maybe 4-5 months we (3 of us) sleep together in the nights. If LO is in our bed there are no sleep issues, he sleeps till midnight, then BF and sleeps again till 2:30-3:30 when Bf. Then it's perfect if he wakes up at 7 because after that his 1st nap is around 9-9:30. But most of the time he wakes up at 5:30-6 - BF but he cant continue sleeping, so he plays a little with us and after max an hour he is very sleepy, starts to fuss, cries because he cant soothe himself and with a lot of efforts I succeed in making him sleep at around 7 till 8.

Problems
Day naps are really a nightmare. Now he doesn't want me to rock him in my arms. He stretches his arms, kicking legs and arching his back, he even starts crying because he just can't fall asleep. He takes out his paci ( if he's asleep with it, after some time it just falls out of his mouth but it doesn't bother him). So almost nothing can calm him. That's why I use BF as a way to make him sleep - it's still working but I am afraid that one day it won't work and that's the reason I want to teach him soothe and falls asleep by himself. After he is asleep sometimes he stretches his arms just to touch me as if he is checking if I am still there. And after all this preparation to fall asleep he sleeps just 30 min and I should be there to help him for the transition.

Health
He is in good health. He had some stomach problems as a little baby. That's why he get used to sleep in my arms - it was the only way to get some sleep but now everything is fine

Goals
1. I am sure that if I start routine, it will be better for him and me
2. Day naps - want to learn him soothe and sleep by himself and in his cot. Maybe routine will help.
3. Night sleep - again in his cot and in the future in his own room but I can be patient, I know it's a long process. One more thing - I'm not sure if he really needs these 2-3 night BF, if he's hungry it's ok for me to continue breastfeeding him, but sometimes he doesn't really feed active, he just uses my breast as paci.

My husband will help me through the whole process. Our LO slept in his arms a lot of times. He doesn't sing to him, he can only speak to him when it's time for sleep. So we are wondering if the rituals before day naps should be the same when I put LO to sleep and when my husband.
We can try the shh/pat method, but without "shhh" - maybe just singing or talking, maybe we should have some key words and instead of patting maybe massaging, no rocking. What about the paci? I give it to LO when I want to tell him it's sleep time and when he starts crying, should we stop using it?
I am also afraid that LO will not be able to calm down before day nap, he'll be arching his back, etc. Maybe I should use the gentle removal plan for the BF for day naps.

Thanks in advance to everybody who will see this post and help me build the best routine and teach my LO to fall asleep by himself in his cot.  :)

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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2017, 19:58:28 pm »
OK, that's really useful information.
I suggest that you move to a routine with a 3hr A time.  This is a guidance time for 8 months old, some LOs need longer than this but it can vary quite a bit so this is a good place to start.  I see from your EAS times that he is going down for a nap after around 2hrs and you are struggling to get him to sleep or to stay asleep. Honestly he is probably not tired enough, we usually call this UT (under tired rather than OT, over tired), so he is fighting the nap and you are putting in additional BF to try to calm him down.  With a longer A time he should be more tired, he might seem very very tired for the first few days as it takes a little while to adapt to the change, this is fine and normal.  When he appears tired you can keep him up longer by chatting, walking around the house, giving him a different toy to hold, singing, anything to distract him from his habit of napping too soon.
You can take a couple of days to move from 2hr A time to 3hr A time. I would suggest you move directly to 2hr 30 min and stay with that for 2 days then move to 2hr 45 for 1-2 days then 3hrs. (note 6 month olds are often on 3hr A times so it is highly unlikely this will be too long for your LO, chances are he will need longer but we can judge that over a period of days/week).

F2S prop (feeding to sleep)
To be honest it sounds like he really doesn't need this.  When your husband puts him down he doesn't have the option to F2S does he? So it must be possible to sooth LO without the breast.  Some people drop a F2S prop (or a NF when it is time to wean one) by having Daddy take over for a few days,  as LO is used to Daddy being unable to provide BF it seems to help with the wean.  This may or may not be an option for you. LOs are quite adaptable and will learn to fall to sleep one way for one person and another way for another person.  If you see several days of Daddy putting LO down for naps though you might feel more confident that LO really doesn't need to F2S.
If however you are move comfortable with the gentle removal plan then that is another option - totally up to you.
Either way, with the longer A time LO is more likely to be tired enough for the nap so I would expect to see some improvement in going down so you might find it easier to drop the F2S. Remember props are things parents use when trying to stop LO crying - some crying is not harmful for your LO whilst he expresses himself, you or Daddy will be there throughout so he knows he is safe even if he doesn't like the new sleep arrangements.

E times.
I suggest you make sure that BF is offered regularly through the day at 4hr intervals so that LO is not hungry prior to a nap (it can be longer than 4hrs if LO is asleep, this naturally extends milk times to possibly 5hrs).  After BF offer the solids approx 1 hr later as you have been.

We can try the shh/pat method, but without "shhh" - maybe just singing or talking, maybe we should have some key words
A key phrase is very useful.  Singing is nice as part of the wind down routine but to be frank I don't personally consider it so useful during sleep training because it is harder to wean. Shushing or a key phrase can be weaned by doing some stop start, reducing the frequency so LO gets used to the quiet moments between which lengthen, this is very hard to do in song.

What about the paci? I give it to LO when I want to tell him it's sleep time and when he starts crying, should we stop using it?
I'm afraid I can't answer this for you.
Paci guidance in the UK is to drop it at 6 months so that tooth development is not hindered (it can begin to effect tooth growth even before teeth appear).  Many people choose to keep a paci much longer because their LO finds a great deal of comfort in it.  Many people wish they had not continued the paci as LO could need "re-plugging" several times per night, and others don't mind this as eventually LO learns to replug themselves in the night.
My own refused a paci so I did not have this option or experience.  With no option I assure you, you DO find other ways to comfort baby (as with BF to sleep which was also not an option for me, you discover you CAN sooth baby without it when you can't use it).  I have tired to give some info there which might help you decide with you DH how to proceed with or without paci.
If you choose to use PUPD though you will have to drop the paci (I think you read the link).

I am also afraid that LO will not be able to calm down before day nap, he'll be arching his back, etc
Yes this is quite possible but this is not harmful and you will get through it. Stay calm, remember you are there with him supporting him whilst he protests about the changes, his cortisol levels are low/zero so long as you are there, and remember your job is to provide an opportunity to sleep, not to force him to sleep.
My guess is that there will be some reduced back arching as he will be more tired - this screaming and back arching is often a sign of being UT and LO trying to communicate he is not ready for a nap.  So it may reduce when the A time is more appropriate for age, or it may continue as he protests not being able to F2S or gets angry because you put him in his cot rather than co-sleeping.

For naps I do suggest you put him in his cot, naps will very much improve when he can self sooth, waking mid nap is totally normal but when he can sleep independently he will have more success of transitioning from one sleep cycle to the next without your help (initially with less help, then none).
The way I think of sleep training is to not try to "con" LO by putting down asleep and creeping away (they often wake after a short time this way), rather to be totally up front and honest about what is happening "you are going to sleep, I'm going now, call if you need me" sounds kind of blunt I know but this is what you are working towards, LO needs to know that he is totally safe even when you are not there, it is incredibly powerful for all involved to see this happen, to know that your child is SO confident in you that he actually doesn't need you right by him and doesn't need to reach out mid nap to check you are there.  It is a process you can work towards in steps.

Then I gently put him in his cot (it's still in our bedroom), but he is awake after 30 - 60 min. I pick him up, he falls asleep again and if I put him back in his cot he wakes up almost immediately (I tried several times). Sometimes I try a lot of times to put him in his cot when he is asleep in my arms but he always wakes up immediately
This is interesting, it sounds like he is almost ready to go to sleep in there and stay there.  Next time can you lift him and keep him in a laying down position (not bringing him upright) as you raise him, as soon as he nods off put him down, if he is nodding off very quickly then don't lift him high up, just an inch off the mattress and put down again.  the idea is that you lift he calms and you put down before he nods off. Also when he wakes again you put your hands around him firmly as though you are going to pick up but instead keep him on the mattress so he feels the security of you but you have not lifted.
You can try this in conjunction with the regular sleep training at the beginning of naps and nights.

night feeds
for now I would leave them as they are. There is often no problem with a LO feeding to sleep in the middle of the night so long as they are proper feeds. I know you wonder if one of them is not hunger, we can look at that a little later I think, unless you are sure which one and would like to just cut it out to leave the 2 NF.

OK, I think I gave you lots of "homework" there!
You can start as soon as you are ready. Nap 1 tomorrow :)
The more you do in terms of sleep training the faster it will happen.

Good luck - let us know how you get on.


Offline cvet7

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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2017, 13:32:06 pm »
Thank you so much for the time you spent helping me! Your support means a lot for me!

I was able to read your post this morning. I thought to start the process tomorrow when my husband will have 4 days off but you said I can start from today, so I decided that I will try to put him in cot for day naps and comfort him without BF.

I am only confused about these early wakenings - for example he wakes up at 5:30 or 6 and wants to play but one hour later is so sleepy. But if he wakes up at 7 it's ok for him and then we can continue with daily routine. So should we start the day at 5:30-6 and then first nap after 3 hours A time or try to start the day later and how?

Today he woke up at 6:30 am and wanted to play, doesn't want BF because he ate at 5 am. At 8 am he started to fuss, I BF him and he was about to fall asleep but at 8:30 he was so happy and wanted to play. During that time while BF him I read your post and decided to start today with naps in cot. He slept in my arms while feeding for maybe 20 min so I was not sure if his A time should count from 8:30 or from before that. I did the following:

WU 6:30
E + S 8-8:30
E solids 9:15
S 10:10-10:50
E bf 11:45
E solids 12:45
S 1:40 pm - 3:05

1st nap
At 9:35 we went in the bedroom, made it darker, put him in cot, put my hands around him and my face close to him as if we are lying next to each other and started rubbing his head and talking to him that it's time to sleep and I'll be there for him. At first he was toching my face, trying to play with me. Then started to fuss and kicking legs and after that as I expected started crying. I tried to lift him from the matress just a little but he arched his back and I put him again on the matress with my hands around him. He was crying a lot but I continued to talk to him, I was calm and confident that I'm doing the right thing. If it was yesterday when he starts crying like this, I just hold him in my arms and BF him,but today I was able to resist  :) After a while he started to sooth and in the end fell asleep after half an hour struggling.
As usual after 30 min he woke up, I put again arms around him, saying quietly just 2-3 words because I was afraid of distracting him and he continued sleeping for 10 more min. I really couldn't believe that he slept in his cot for 40 min during the day and without holding him or BF  :D

2 nd nap - just amazing  :o
I put him in cot at 13:20-13:25 again with my arms around him, rubbing head, kissing forehead and talking. He started playing with me and laughing, after that calmed down and then fell asleep - NO crying at all! Afer 30 min again woke up, I rubbed his head until he continued sleeping. Now he is so cheerful.

I am not sure if he will need catnap later or maybe I will start the bath earlier - 6:30 pm.
Tonight I will also put him in cot, hope he will sleep there.

I know that my success today will not last forever and there will be ups and downs and LO will test us if we are sure to continue this way but now I have faith that we are moving in the right direction.
Thanks again for guideness!
Tomorrow I'll update.

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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2017, 15:13:55 pm »
What lovely news!!

Now then. That first nap, he had already fallen asleep at the breast so this has confused your timings - really try to keep him awake when feeding, not easy when he is used to falling to sleep eating and also as there are sleepy hormones in your milk BUT LOs actually can learn to not fall to sleep eating so this is what you will begin now.  Keep him awake.  Feed him when he wakes in the morning and after naps, not before naps unless he is screaming for food! Look at the times if you offer and he won't eat at 6.30 say, he is getting breakfast anyway at some time in the morning so he is not starving. The next milk feed wouldn't come until 10.30, that is 4hrs from last feed which is totally doable for 8 months - it's not like you are starving him, you offer the breast at WU and breakfast solids, he can learn to take the food when it is available.  When you feed on WU he is already less likely to sleep and easier to keep awake.

For now, lets not worry about the slightly earlier waking. yes I know you'd like a good routine but there are a lot of things for you all just now so how about this
- if he wakes at 7am start A time from then (so now it is 2hr 30 but you will increase to 2hr 45 and then 3hr)
- if he wakes before 6am you could A time from 6am (not 5.30) which gives a longer A time and will begin to discourage him waking earlier. So nap would be 8.30 on 2.5hr A time counting from 6am although in reality he is awake for 3hrs. But remember 3hr is fine for 8 months and he maybe needs more anyway
- or as above you count WU as 6.30am rather than 6 and do your A time from there, as above it is longer A time but this is still okay to help routine and naps.
You choose what you are comfortable with.  Really really try not to put him down for that nap too early, it is not going to help you.

You have taken courage and soothed him and reassured him without BF to sleep - way to go Mummy!! Well done!!
Keep going!!
One step at a time, keep your goal in sight, it is totally okay to help your baby, just keep the goal in sight and you will naturally be working towards reduction of help whilst still reassuring him.

I recommend you write these successes you had today up and pin them on your fridge or bathroom mirror, so you see them every day...there will be days when you might feel there is no progress, you must remember these successes and stay focused and motivated.
When your baby is able to go to sleep alone, it is an amazing feeling, to know that YOU taught him to trust in you so deeply that he no longer needs you by his side. I still remember that feeling from my own LO :)

Well done!


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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #8 on: March 18, 2017, 13:03:22 pm »
I'm looking forward to this feeling  :) I'm sure one day he will be able to fall asleep by himself, I just should be patient. Thank you for the support!

Last night was terrible.
6:15 pm - bath, massage
6:35 pm - BF - he fell asleep
7 - put him in cot and waked up, looked at me, I rubbed his head and he fell asleep again. Then he was turning from side to side a lot in his cot
8:15 - awake, couldn't calm down, start crying a lot, even screaming. I took him but not in horizontal position as he was kicking legs and arching back, so he was in front of me and I rubbed his back and talked to him without rocking. I tried to put again in cot but continues crying. It took me 1 hour to sooth him  :'(
9:20 - in cot sleeping
9:35 - moving from side to side and opening eyes, then settled
10:30 - awake with crying. I BF him as it's been 4 hours since last milk. He was sleepy. When put in cot looked at me and with rubbing his head and talking he fell asleep. At 11:05 again I should calm him down a little but then fell asleep for more time.
2:40 - BF - then sleep in cot
4:40 - moving a lot in cot, opened eyes, again rubbed his head + quiet talking and continued sleeping
6:20 awake for new day

I felt really powerless when crying so much, thought he would never stop and almost couldn't belive he settled in his cot.

Today routine
WU 6:20
E bf - 6:30
E solids - 7:35
S - 8:50 - 10:20  :D - fell asleep easy for just 5-10 min, no crying
E bf - 10:30
E solids 11:30
S 1:30pm-2 - put in cot at 1pm but start to fuss, then crying for 10-15 min and asleep after 30 min altogether. He waked at 2 pm, I rubbed his head, etc but couldn't calm him down. Started crying a lot, screaming at some moments, took him up front and comfort him, put in cot and again crying. I did this 1/2 hour but couldn't settle. It was time for BF. I reasure he's totally awake and go to other room and BF him. I didn't want him to think that I feed him to sleep. He continued to be awake and playing now.

I don't know what we are going to do till bath at 6-6:30 pm. Hope tonight will be better than last night but I doubt it.

Thanks for reading this and have a good day!


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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #9 on: March 18, 2017, 18:55:25 pm »
S - 8:50 - 10:20  :D - fell asleep easy for just 5-10 min, no crying
Wonderful!!

OK I know some of this is hard but you are doing great. Although you said the night was terrible, he stayed in his cot all night, okay you picked him up when he was unsettled (or screaming) but he *still went back to sleep and slept in his cot* this is a big deal.

S 1:30pm-2 - put in cot at 1pm but start to fuss, then crying for 10-15 min and asleep after 30 min altogether. He waked at 2 pm, I rubbed his head, etc but couldn't calm him down. Started crying a lot, screaming at some moments, took him up front and comfort him, put in cot and again crying. I did this 1/2 hour but couldn't settle. It was time for BF. I reasure he's totally awake and go to other room and BF him. I didn't want him to think that I feed him to sleep. He continued to be awake and playing now.
Not sure what time zone you are in but I suspect it's too late to give you any advice for today. When something doesn't work out so good like this short nap you just need to do what you can and remember tomorrow is another day.
For future reference though. If LO woke after 30 mins and you were trying to resettle, then it was E time etc, I would have probably tried for a CN later on, maybe around 4.30 and just for 30-40 mins.  This would be roughly 2hr 30 from previous nap and likely he would go to sleep for a short while.  He'd either short nap again or you could wake him.  This makes A time from 5pm to 7.30pm (2hr 30) and I would make BT 7.30 or close to.
If on the other hand you tried to get a CN at 4.30pm and he totally refused I would probably try for 30-45 mins and then stop.  I would move directly on to the BT routine and squeeze in whatever you need to as quickly as possible, eg milk, solids, bath (or just top and tail one day) and then get him to bed early. The probably with short nap or refusing a CN in the afternoon/evening is that he could end up awake from 2pm until 7pm BT which is 5 hrs and can cause OT.
Not every day will be perfect though and actually you are doing wonderfully.
I really like your idea of taking him into a different room for his BF so that he didn't think it could still be nap time :)

Take courage and motivation from that wonderful nap where he only took 5-10 mins to go to sleep and slept a full nap.  You are all doing really well.


Offline cvet7

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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2017, 18:17:35 pm »
Thank you so much  :)

That day I was not sure if CN is a good idea and didn't try it. We started bath, etc at 6 pm and at 7 pm he was deeply asleep He didn't seem tired and the night was perfect. Waked up a few times but continued sleeping easy, 2 BF at 10:30 pm and 2 am.

Next day and today - Daddy's days
Yesterday's routine
WU 6:20
E bf 6:30
E solids 7:30
S 9:05-9:50 fell asleep very easy
E bf 10:30
E solids 11:30
S 1 pm - 2:20 - he cried (15 min maybe)
E bf 2:30
E solids 3:30 pm
BT routine 6 pm
E bf 6:30
S 7-10:30, then BF and continued sleeping.
He waked up at 12:50 am. Daddy tried to calm him down but not possible, started crying a lot, then screaming. He took him out of bed up front and tried to comfort him, but continued crying. They were walking around the room and hallway, daddy soothed LO but when putting in cot, crying again. He did this a lot of times. I took LO at 2 am because he was screaming so loud. I did the same things - carrying him in vertical position and rubbing his back and talking. Then put in cot with armms around him, rubbing head and talking but continued crying. I did this a few times and in the end he settled at 2:30 am. It became time for BF but I didn't feed him because he was crying for 1 hour and 40 min....I didn't want to comfort him with breast. I knew he will be immediately asleep if BF him. But when he fell asleep I was not sure if maybe he was hungry? I know that when daddy comfort LO I shouldn't involve, but it was so much crying - we were wondering what is happening.
4:30 am - Bf
6 am - WU for new day.

Today's routine was almost the same. 2 naps, 1 hour each, fell asleep easy, a little crying before nap 2 but just 3-4 min
 We see so much progress, as he is sleeping only in his cot and we hope crying will become less and less.

What do you think will the proper next steps be? Maybe we should reduce our help when he's falling asleep, or we should leave the room (during days as cot is in our bedroom still) after he is totally asleep and come back after 30 min to help for transition to another sleep cycle?

Have a nice evening!

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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2017, 18:50:58 pm »
That was a tricky night with him awake a long time. It could have been hunger but I can see from your times that you wouldn't have been feeding at 12.50am based on the previous feed time.  it could also be that he knows the new routine is the same with both parents, that he sleeps in his cot, and he might have been testing this out a little, also LOs can have a "regression" after maybe 5 days where they seem to have a last ditch attempt to return things to how they used to be (sleep in arms, co-sleep, F2S etc) so also prepare for this, you just have to support and see it through.

I think in a day or so you are bringing the A time to 3hrs and then we'll stick there for a bit to see how the naps settle down.
WRT sleep training, on the naps where it is easier to get him down, yes you can reduce how much help you are giving, aim to be hands off before he nods off.  You can also leave the room as the next step, I always said "call if you need me" before I left the room which I think Tracy said to her babies - and you return immediately if he cries and sooth him again (either in cot or pick up depending what is needed).

If you have difficult time though like that night, you continue to help and support as much as is needed, he only learns to be confident by getting the support he needs when he needs it.  Whilst always keeping your end goal in sight do not be afraid to comfort your LO.

I suggest you keep an eye on that last A time. It is over 4.5hrs long if either of the naps are shorter than needed.  A 4.5hr A time before BT can cause waking in the night or early morning waking.  I would aim to have him in bed asleep by 3hrs (or 3hr 30 max) after the end of the last nap (or squeeze a CN in).

hope this helps - keep going :)


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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2017, 07:44:28 am »
It's me again  :) Thanks a lot for all advice. Everything you said is so helpful!

Day naps become better and better. It's amazing that he's sleeping only in his cot, sometimes even an hour or 1,20 without waking up at all. He still wakes up in the morning at different times between 5:30 and 7 am. If he wakes before 7am, his first A time is 3,5 hours, otherwise - 3 hours.
Second nap - if it ends before 3pm, then there is a catnap at 4:30-5 pm and BT - 7:30-8pm. Otherwise BT 6:30. Lately, both naps last around an hour each one.

Night sleep - still not very good, but only in his cot which is an improvement. Unfortunately, it makes me very tired as he wakes at every 2 hour. Sometimes he fell asleep easy just when I hold his hand in his cot, but sometimes it took me an hour or more. Fortunately, there is no crying or sometimes a little.
Last night for example:
BT 8:20pm ( CN 5:05-5:45pm)
9pm - waked just for a few min
11:30- BF (last one was at 7pm)
1:30 am - waked and tried to touch my hand, then I rubbed his head and hold hands for about 1/2 hour. He seemed so sleepy, closed eyes, suddenly try to grab my hand or touch face, then again try to fall asleep.
2:30 - 2:45 - same situation
3:30 - BF
5:30 - awake for new day.

A night before without CN and BT at 6:30 - the same, he wakes up at every maybe 2 hours and between 12 and 2 am - it takes me more time to help him fall asleep. I hope it's just an adjustment period and soon his night sleep will be longer. Hope I will survive until then  :D

Thanks for your time and attention! Have a great day!

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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2017, 08:26:52 am »
Sounds like you are doing really well - even if nights are still tricky just now! What a great improvement to have him sleeping in his cot though!!

For day naps I suggest trying 3hr 15 A time now.  Adjust as needed if he wakes before 7am just as you have been doing, let the first A be longer if he wakes early. At 8 months we would expect to see just 2 naps so lets try to drop that CN and even out the day a bit.  His overall sleep routine will likely improve if we can get each day consistent so he knows to expect 2 naps and no CN.  With the slightly longer A time you will find it a bit easier to reach a better BT without the CN to bridge the gap.

For night sleep I would try to wean him off touching your hand now so use a key phrase instead if needed, touch him briefly use the phrase, then remove your hand again (or you touch him on his back for a rub for example rather than him searching you out). It might well take him longer to get back off to sleep (I know you want him asleep ASAP in the night so this asks for you to put in even more work!) but he needs to practise that he can go back to sleep without holding your hand and he needs to be reassured of your presence and attention (his safety) without needing to reach out to touch you.  He can learn this and will with your encouragement.

One other thing, does he have a lovey?
If not I suggest trying to introduce one. This can be a huge source of comfort for LOs and rather than reaching out to check *you* are there and touch your hand he can reach out instead for his lovey and find comfort in that. You can't "force" an attachment to a lovey but you can really encourage it. I can offer some tips if needed.  I am a huge believer in lovies as my own LO used one throughout (I did not leave anything in his bed when he was under 6 months but I did let him fall to sleep with it then removed it for safety) and he is now 6yo and still finding great comfort in it.  I use muslin squares, easy to replace and wash.

For you - at difficult times like this you really need  to prioritise your rest over housework etc. Do only the essential things which really have to be done and use the rest of your time to have a rest.  Waking every 2hrs at night is hard going, you *will* get through it but please do put yourself before the non-essential housework and get a rest xx


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Re: Please help - 8 months baby no routine till now
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2017, 12:12:44 pm »
Thanks for the encouragement! You are just amazing!
I am so happy for the whole progress.

Tonight I'll try your advice about night sleep and I'll update.
No, he doesn't have a lovey, but I read about it here in the forum and I think it is a good idea. A few days ago I even tried when I saw he is always looking for my hands, but he took it (muslin square with small teddy bear at the end) and started looking at it and I thought it is a distraction for him as if it's time for playing. Maybe I should try again.

Have a nice day!