Author Topic: 5 month old - NW, EW and shh/pat at night  (Read 248 times)

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Offline olajourn

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5 month old - NW, EW and shh/pat at night
« on: March 19, 2017, 01:44:59 am »
Hello everyone! I have initially asked these questions in a different topic, but while I've been dealing with being sick and exhausted, my previous post has magically disappeared. So I'm sorry for repeating it here.

So, about a month ago my DD was the best night-time-sleeper and the most horrible napper in the world (ok, maybe she had a second place) but thanks to Creations and other moms here we were able to win the battle for naps, and now my baby is asleep within 5-10 min after we put her down in her crib. For a moment we thought that our life will become beautiful and boring, but then my baby stopped sleeping at night at all. I mean, in a last month we had one 6- and one 8-hr long stretch. Normally we get something like 2-3-2-2-2, or she even wakes up every hour or 1.5hr, and willingly starts her day at 5:30 in the morning.

Depending on the duration of her naps, we are on EASY or EASAEAS routines.

 For example, this was our yesterday.

6:00 E
6:10-8:00 A
8:00-9:20 S
9:20 E
9:30-11:20 A
11:20-11:50 S (she often wakes up at 30min mark even when I try to extend her nap) - woke up crying, and only calmed down once I fed her.
12:00 E
12:10-1:55 A
1:55-3:20 S
3:20-3:45 A
3:45 E
3:55-6:35 A
6:35 Bedtime routine, asleep at 7:50.
Then awake at 9:50, 11:30, 1:00 and 4:10.

When she wakes up, she starts crying and escalates if I don't feed her, but try to do what I normally do in order to make her sleep: singing, holding her arms, or my arm on her chest, pu/pd. Sometimes she cries but doesn't even open her eyes, and falls back to sleep as soon as I start feeding. And sometimes she takes a full meal. Also, her wake up times are random, and don't seem to be habitual.

Once I managed our naps, I was going to do our shh/pat adaptation for NW, but it just doesn't work, or I'm missing something important.

I received so many great advice when posted for the first time, and I would really appreciate your help with this case as well.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2017, 01:47:14 am by olajourn »

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 5 month old - NW, EW and shh/pat at night
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 13:08:12 pm »
Hugs, it's so exhausting isn't it? 

Looking at the routine you posted, I wonder if she is rather overtired by bedtime and that is causing issues?  It looks like the first A time is good, perhaps just a touch short (1h20 is often a slightly UT nap), and then you are getting a short second nap.  It may be an UT nap despite the length as it happens after a reasonable first nap and appropriate/even slightly short A time - and hence not easy to resettle.  The afternoon nap is reasonable, perhaps a bit of a catch up, but then a 4.5h A time before bed??  Was that intentional?  Could you start the bedtime routine any earlier on days like that?

I would suggest perhaps you need to increase A time starting at the beginning of the day, say to 2h15 or so and see if you can get a better second nap in by doing so.  I'd also aim to have her asleep for the night no more than 13h after morning WU, or closer to 12h if naps are bad x
***Katherine***







Offline olajourn

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Re: 5 month old - NW, EW and shh/pat at night
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 21:55:52 pm »
Thank you for the response! I'm definitely exhausted, since I missed her last nap in the listed routine :) It was from 5 till 5:40. But generally, her last A time is still longer than her A time during the day, closer to 3 hours.

We were trying not to start the bedtime routine earlier than 6:30pm, in hopes that she would not wake up earlier than she does now (5:30-6:30). I've already seen suggestions in other topics on how to move the schedule for a later time by postponing the bedtime every day by little. But probably it's too early in our case, and we should manage the NW first.

My biggest concern now is her cry at night, when she doesn't calm down when I talk to her, or pick her up, just only wants breast. So I'm not really sure how to do shh/pat at night.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 5 month old - NW, EW and shh/pat at night
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2017, 16:20:05 pm »
Do you think she is reliant on the breast to get back off to sleep?  How does she fall asleep at bedtime? 

Weaning a nursing prop can be tough, especially at this age when she genuinely probably will still need 2-3 night feeds.  The general way to approach it would be to decide times you will feed (say 3.5h or so since the last feed - based on what she does in the daytime) and in between if she wakes you stick with another method of settling, even if it takes a long time and even if it takes you past the 'feed time' (so you avoid the scream for long enough = get what I want situation).  Do you have a partner who could deal with those wakings instead? 
***Katherine***







Offline olajourn

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Re: 5 month old - NW, EW and shh/pat at night
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2017, 05:47:11 am »
Oh, I am completely sure. It's 1:30am, and she already woke up 4 times, and got back to sleep only after feeding.

Unfortunately, my previous post has disappeared, I had all our past  issues described there. She has been cluster feeding for two months, so we didn't have any routine. Once I started working with her naps, she stopped cluster feeding and started going to her crib awake. Now we take a bath, wear pj, I feed her in the dark and put her in her crib. Then I sing a song and hold my arm on her chest, and once she relaxes I start shushing. In three weeks we went from 45 min to 15.

My husband can help me, but I keep postponing working through this issue, because I don't have a strategy in my head, and I chicken out :) I tried to not feed her a few times, and tried to do what I normally do to make her sleep. But the very moment she realizes that I'm not offering her what she is expecting, she starts crying like crazy and doesn't stop until she gets it. So, my husband can help me, but he needs a plan that I don't have. Would you recommend us to do pu/pd? What if she continues crying even when I hold her? Ugh, so stressful.

Thank you!!

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 5 month old - NW, EW and shh/pat at night
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2017, 20:03:25 pm »
Just before I go any further can I just check no reason that she would be waking and in discomfort?  Very frequent wakes looking for the breast can sometimes be a sign of reflux, the milk soothes the pain from acid.....

If that's not relevant though I think it's important to realise and accept there will be crying when you attempt to settle her in another way - it's the only way she can communicate to you that she's not pleased about the change in 'rules'.  It is hard, and stressful, and so you need to be sure in your mind that the end goal is worth the effort before you begin :)  I would expect it to take a long time the first time you try to settle her in a new way, but with consistency the time should shorten fairly quickly.

As a general rule of thumb you wouldn't expect a baby to feed more frequently at night by this age than they do in the day.  If you wanted to be gentle to begin with you could start with 3 hours as your target.  Note the time of her bedtime feed and work out when 3 hours later will be.  If she wakes before that, send your husband to her (!) and he needs to persist in settling her with whatever method you choose (shh pat or PUPD would be fine) until she goes back to sleep, even if it takes you past the 3h feed time.  Next time she wakes, even if it's only 10 mins later, as long as it is now more than 3h since last feed you go and feed her directly.  If it's still not 3h, husband goes back and settles again.  Note the time once you do feed her, and the next 3h window, and repeat.  The idea being after a while she should only really wake when she genuinely is hungry instead of looking for the breast every time. 

You can obviously go to her yourself to settle her if you prefer or need, it's just sometimes harder for a breastfeeding Mum as LO can smell the milk and may fight longer and harder. 

What do you think?
***Katherine***