Ew 13 m

[Crispysage]

I've been here before a lot for the same problem so I think I know what you are going to say. LO is waking up at 4 or if we are lucky 5 and if there's any way to change it we would all be better off. Schedule:

4 daddy sometimes able to settle till 5
5 Wu
6:30 bf
7 breakfast
9 s
10:30/11 Wu & snack
12:30 lunch
2/3 nap 1 hr snack
5 dinner
6 bath
6:30 bf
7 asleep

He goes down without a fuss, just walk in paci a kiss and bye bye. I've been trying to drop the bf to morning and night only, but I do usually give him probably one bf during the day sometime. He's also doing a bit of nw but I think that's a separate issue. I'm wondering if I should be stretching his a time even more. I'm guessing he's doing some of his nighttime sleep in at 9am. (Occasionally he gets woken early then he'll just do a long nap later.)

[Haribo2012]

Hi, yes I think you've answered your own question, that first nap is too early or too long at that time of day.
My DS2 is 14 months and does either 1 nap 12-2 or 20 mins 9.30am then 1.5 hours at 1pm.

I'd either push that first nap to 10am and let it be the long one and then pop a 30 min CN in around 3pm or similar to my day.

[Crispysage]

Thanks I'm already pushing him from about 8... and then again from about 1. Will just try keep pushing little more each day.

[Haribo2012]

Keep us posted, good luck x

[Crispysage]

Thanks Zoe... It's a little bit of an administrative problem too... His brother needs to be at school at 9... so I put LO down at 8:50.. I'll try taking him in the car and keeping him awake... but makes driving dangerous and it's a drag at school to have two or one asleep  Also not far enough away for a CN in the car 10mins too short!!!

[Haribo2012]

Ah school drop offs, I sing make noises give him toys and can mostly keep him awake. Could he then have CN on way home?

[Crispysage]

Yes! On the way home is fine because I can transfer him to cot for a little more too. (it's only a 10 min drive max) Ya, I open and close the window and call to him, but he just loves sleeping in the car and cries and cries when I won't let him poor boy. I'll for sure try making the morning sleep shorter and pushing it later - then long nap later - always keen to have naps overlap and then he can sleep with brother after school and lunch.

[Haribo2012]

Good luck I know where your coming from mine will nod off in the car in a second ha ha.

It might just come right in a month or so as mine seems to handle the longer A time so much better all of a sudden x

[Crispysage]

I have had success keeping him awake in the car 9:20 or 9:30, but he still wants to sleep 2 hrs in the am.

It's only been two days, so obviously no change, but do you think I should cut down day time sleep and start waking him up from naps? maybe Limit total naps to 2hr (slowly), rather than the min 3 hr he wants? Hoping he transfers an hour to the night sleep?

He is only doing 13 hrs total sleep so I am loathe to do this incase he ends up with less. 

[Haribo2012]

So at 9.30 are you doing 2 hour nap?

[Crispysage]

Well, he did today... I kinda thought I shouldn't let him, but I got SO MUCH DONE 

[Haribo2012]

Lol well good plan. I guess you need to consider pushing that nap later if you want it to be the main nap x

[Crispysage]

I don't actually want it to be the main nap, LO#1 sleeps 2hr at 1 /1:30. But the there's not enough awake time between 11 and 1:30 if he sleeps at 10, and that's 5 hrs awake time from 5-10am, though obviously the idea is he starts waking at 6... still I don't think he could make 5 hours?!

[Haribo2012]

I'd give him 30 mins at 9.30 then and he should be ready by 12.45/1pm to long nap x

[Crispysage]

30 not 45?

He was up at 4 this morning, DH managed to get him to go back to sleep 4:30... and then awake from 5:15 

I have been keeping him awake till 9:30 - we made it to 9:40 and I was planning on catching some sleep with him now, but I will wake him after 45 (It's a cycle right?)

Thanks again Zoe.

[Haribo2012]

The idea is to reduce that morning nap so they aren't relying on it as a full on sleep to replace night sleep.

Try 45 mins if you'd rather and hold for a few days and if still EW I'd reduce a bit more x

[Crispysage]

Thanks! We all have terrible flu. 

[Haribo2012]

Oh jk get well soon x

[Crispysage]

Thanks Zoe - so as a sort of an update /question, I have been doing 30 mins nap around 9:45 am 10am, but now he has started fighting sleep at the second nap. I can only get him to sleep again at 2:45 and then he wakes up crying 45 mins or at most an hour later. He is usually very tired by midday, (and so OT after that.) He often tries to sleep in the car when we fetch his brother, but I keep him awake to eat lunch and then try put him down, but no dice till closer to 3pm I am afraid.

Seems counter intuitive to cut the nap even shorter as he was sleeping 2hrs in the am and 1hr in the afternoon. So he has lost that sleep, and he still wakes around 5am.

Still, I agree that the problem is most likely that he is doing "night time" sleep in the morning, so I will continue with trying to cut the morning sleep shorter and perhaps I should try to figure out a way to let him sleep at 12?

Also, the NW is very bad. But he is sick and I am pretty sure now teething too because he made 3 dirty diapers, has a terrible diaper rash, is super unhappy and drooling and biting everything.

Luckily my mum has come for a few days to help!!!

[Haribo2012]

I found I had to have him up by 10am or I'd struggle to get a nap by 1.30. I've now found if I do 9.40 -10am I can get him in bed by 12.30. I'd say if he seems tired at midday give him lunch early and put him to bed.

Mine only really has the CN thurs and fri as at nursery he manages till 12 noon and sat, sun he goes till 12 too unless we are in car. Think thurs fri are his catch-up from nursery being more stimulating.

Oooh nappies sound like teeth, poor thing x

[Crispysage]

What's you LO's WU time Zoe? Thanks again.

[Haribo2012]

Around 6.15/6.30 sometimes hear him at 5 but he chats and goes back off x

[Crispysage]

Ok thanks. Failed day yesterday - just couldn't keep him awake in the car at 8:50 -slept till 9:20. Then again in the car at 11:50 let him sleep in the car, but when I tried to transfer him at home he woke at 12:20, and then wouldn't sleep again. But was obviously finished for early BT AT 5:45. That meant he was stirring from 3... DH GOT HIM BACK DOWN, but was finally up and wouldn't sleep again at 4:30.

So moved the wrong direction yesterday and fear we will struggle to keep him awake till 9 again today!

Any tips welcome 

[Haribo2012]

Can you leave him asleep in the car at lunchtime? I know it's not ideal but I have done that and made sure I'm in the room that I can see the car? Alternatively let him have 5 mins in the car at lunch and try bed 45 mins later?

[Crispysage]

Thanks Zoe! Still horribly sick this side, after blood tests I am going on a third course of antibiotics, for a cold! It's been very tough with a lot of NW - I think he might have started habitual waking at 10:30, if I give him pain meds he sometimes sleeps till 1, but I can't give it to him EVERY night. The EW - it's hard to say if it's improved. Example, he woke at 10:30 last night, again later but not so that we went to him, them crying crying crying at 4am. DH finally settled and I had to wake him at 7. (I HAVE NEVER had to to do that!) Then he wouldn't sleep till after 10 (we were in the car, so I thought he would sleep short nap before that.) And now it's 3pm and he just wont sleep. I know you'll say we should cut the nap earlier in the day earlier... but he usually gets SO TIRED pretty much immediately after. (like laying down on the floor crying, not playing.) Then he finally gets a second wind... SO I guess It could be that he is still trying to join the nap to the night time sleep. Anyway at 4am after NW we are both at our wits end. (especially considering neither of us are getting over this cold because of lack of sleep!) So hard to know if the NW are pain, habit or something else. DH is convinced he wakes from habit and just wants "something sweet" (the meds) and to be held.

[Haribo2012]

Oh goodness poor you get well soon.

I could be habit but I'd think if the meds have given you a longer sleep there might be some discomfort. I have given meds every night for a week or so if I can see teething signs, it has taken a good couple of months for my DS2 molar to pop through.

I'd pop a CN in at 4pm ish and just do BT at 7 ish.

[Crispysage]

Thanks!

He is still fighting sleep - yesterday did morning nap 20 mins at 10:15 am (after waking 3:45-4:30am then sleeping till 7...) then fought nap in the afternoon only slept at 3:45 - 4:30pm! BT at 7 as usual, (fully medicated) NW was only enough to wake us, didnt have to go to him until 4am when we was chirping away wide awake, ended up leaving him which he didnt like, but then went to sleep! woke 5:15. Then was VERY OT at 9am and had to sleep, struggled to get him awake after 20 min car nap, he was super groggy.

[Haribo2012]

I find minexwakes better after a CN if we are going to say a play date or play group or shops...,something to keep him interested.

[Crispysage]

Thanks for sticking with me in this Zoe! I'm still sick and he is still waking a few times at night (medicated or not) so I'm tired! The EW might be improving but my other son wakes him too so it's hard to tell! Might start working on the 2 yr olds EW, cut his nap to 1.5 hr see if that helps. It's dark till 7am here now and it seemed to help last winter... I think.

[Haribo2012]

No probs always good to have a hand to hold! 2 year old have massive language leap so could be developmental too x

[Crispysage]

Thanks... I'm afraid that's not it... he has been waking at 5 his whole life. Last winter it pushed to around 6 for a month or two. I come from a family of early walkers. 

But I'm feeling so despondent - DS2 woke at 4 again.  woke DS1 then went back to sleep, but now I'm here with DS1. And he has been fighting sleep at night, so if he only went to sleep at 7:30 that's only 8.5 hrs sleep. Feel bad cutting his day time nap now.

Keep feeling there must be a way to sort this out!

Help!!!

[Haribo2012]

Bless you it's so hard if it's any consolation my DS1 just turned 5 had took to visiting in the night and hadn't done that in months and DS2 has been waking up too. All teeth and developmental!


Also I find NW worse when they are about to come down with a cold or bug x

[Crispysage]

Hy Zoe

Now that we are recovering from the horrible cold (DS1 got pneumonia  ) sleep is returning to its unbearable pattern.

DS1 sleeps well and 2 wakes around 10/11 to cry, don't go to him because he quickly finds a dummy, but wakes again at 1/2 and is quite awake and needs a lot of help. I must say, he sounds distraught whether or not he is in pain I don't know. Then at about 4 or latest 5 he wants to wake up. I have been bringing him into the bed (DH was away) and then he will sleep till almost 7!

While he was sick he slept through as long as he had the antihistamines and pain killers.

Don't know what to do! Cant medicate him all the time.

Day time I have him on 20 min nap before 10am and then a 1.5 /2 hr nap around 2pm, BT by 7.

I think its now a NW problem, not an EW problem.

HELP!!!

DH is pushing towards more controlled crying approach and I don't have the solution to argue against it.

[Haribo2012]

Hi, oh dear it is tiring isn't it. Personally if you think it's discomfort and he sleeps I'd medicate...some teeth take forever to show. I'd try giving meds for say aweek and see what happens to the sleep!?

[Crispysage]

Ahhhhhrg. It's so tough - I don't want to over medicate - I feel like I have been drugging him for too long.

And if I am honest I am not so sure it's pain. I think he is over tired... the way he fights sleep at nap and BT is brand new. Plus he sometimes wants to feed to sleep, even at nap time  (inconsolable, I feed him and he goes to sleep...) Whereas before he would have the perfect BT routine, BF, story and some water if he wanted, we get up walk over to switch off the light together, he looks at the glow in the dark stars, I move around the room with plenty of light from the passage and DH and DS1 audibly reading story next door. He happily lies in his cot and goes to sleep. Last few nights I can tell the difference even from when we are BF. he is fidgety and unsettled. He then starts to fall asleep BF and is upset when I want to read. He then cries and fights sleep.

Tonight i drugged him and it was the perfect BT routine again so.... 

We will see.

More detailed routine so that you can evaluate OT possibility:

WU is actually all over the place. if he wakes at 4 I can bring him into the bed and get until 6:30. Otherwise he wakes at 5...

7am breakfast
9:40am S
10am A (I wake him and he is in a deep sleep)
1 lunch
2 S
3:30/4 A
5 dinner
7 BT

then the NW I mentioned before, except last night he needed an hour at midnight then slept till 4.
11 ish
1 ish
4 or 5

So that's not habitual then? (it has to be EXACTLY the same time right?)

Any other ideas why he might be waking... if it isn't pain, habit or developmental? (he is 2 weeks away from next leap.)

Thanks again!

[Crispysage]

Is there something about 14m that makes it a tricky age? SA? He seems to be struggling with just wanting to be held.

Also, do you think it's still a problem of joining night sleep (linked with the EW?) Because he is BUSHED at 9am (I usually have to keep him awake till 9:30 and he will sleep at 9 if I put him down.) Then at 12 (when we are in the car fetching brother) he is desperately tired and I have to work to keep him awake then too.

Then i feel like by the time we have come home and had lunch he is OT. I know I asked this q before and you suggested letting him sleep at 12, but I don't think that's a good idea because then he can't make it to BT (but it seems to me that he should be able to do 5hr A time. ( he often does in the morning if he wakes 4:45am and goes to sleep 9:45am

I wonder if I shouldn't be aiming to shorten the morning nap and put him down at 12:30 (impossible with brother schedule  Working towards 1 nap.

trouble is that he is so deeply asleep for the short morning nap, I always feel bad waking him. And then  he is doing 2 hrs quite close to BT (Awake 4pm - 7pm.)
 

[Crispysage]

I assume WI WO is the appropriate tool? This article only talks about it being for BT, but it must work for NW?

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

I also assumed that WI WO was the right one (rather than gradual withdrawal) but having read this Im now not so sure because I think he does have parental dependance now.

[Haribo2012]

Sorry Hun been so busy with work not had chance to reply.

Do you think maybe his BT needs to be a bit later, it's quite common when you still have 2 naps for the day to get a bit longer.


There is so much going on, defo SA is big at this age, but so are teeth, 2-1 it's hard to figure out sometimes.

I find at 16 months are nights are much better on 1 nap which 6 out of 7! days he has but 1 day he has a little CN after his 3 nursery days he's pooped!

You either need a 12 noon 1 nap day or keep CN then later BT say 7.30 and see if it makes a difference, also if meds help it does sound like pain x

[Crispysage]

Thanks Zoe - Somewhere along the way through the 2 months that you have been advising me, the NW that I thought were unrelated, or would spontaneously resolve have become more important for me to solve.

Do you think I should post a new question about it?

My thoughts on it in any case:

I re-read chapter 7 "We're still not getting enough sleep" in The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems ( the only book of T's that I have read.) It seems that we have perhaps been approaching the problem differently to how she seems to suggest. I think it is worth asking what tools I have been using to get him back to sleep. Which is why I asked about WI/WO. Can you advise about this method?

Maybe I never mentioned this, but he has never really slept through independently without medication for more than a few nights a few times in his life. I'm not sure if Tracy would term that as "never having slept through"

However, he is fully capable of intendant sleep at nap and BT. Unless he is OT or some other unusual reason he might occasionally need a little help. I guess we have been trying to figure this problem out for about 2 months and he is still waking up 3 times per night (if you could the 4:45 EW as one.)

I was previously picking him up and comforting him a lot, and while he was sick I even held him till he was asleep or let him sleep on me. I think that lapse in resolve has caused some problems now. So I am doing a gentle version of WIWO (not walking out ) I am only picking him up if I absolutely HAVE To (once a night or not at all) and I am helping him lay down and then laying down in the room. 2 night ago it took 2 hours. Last night 20 mins. But i still wonder why he wakes up... (when he woke at 11 I didn't have to go to him.) I went to him at 3 and then just got up at 4:45.

I did medicate him both nights.

The only example that I have read where Tracey advises on a similar situation (the child goes to sleep independently, but NW) she had done CIO before and I am on the other end of the spectrum tending to AP, so I didnt find it a helpful scenario. Do you know of a similar situation in one of Tracey's other books where she advises what to do?

I am wondering if the fact that I constantly have struggled to wake him up from his morning nap (and should I still be having to wake him? I would have thought after a month he would settle into the routine and wake himself if it was a good routine for him?) I am just wondering if the 20 min nap is making him OT.

To make matters worse DS1 is dropping his only nap  and I am afraid I don't have it in me to deal with a 1-0 transition right now!!! 

Anyway, any thoughts or helpful hints super welcome - also I wondered if asking one of the other moderators for thoughts? I'm getting more and more burnt out and desperate.   
 

[Haribo2012]

Hi I would post a new topic now he's a little older so people can have a fresh look. I'll ask someone else to take a look but often a new post is good to start a fresh x

[Crispysage]

Will do, you're the best Zoe!

[*Ali*]

I just read through this thread.

I think wiwo is the right tool since he has gone to sleep independently in the past.  Maybe start by standing outside the bedroom door so he can see you through the crack if you feel going right out is too much for him to start with.

You could also try doing wiwo at 4-5am for a while. Have you considered a groclock? You could start by just doing it until 5.20am or something and then gradually push it later as he gets the idea.

If you can I think I'd just ditch the morning CN and jump straight to one nap. Would 11am work with school runs?

Or when my DS2 was early waking at 5 I found the only way to combat it was to push the first nap as late as possible as if he'd woken at a more reasonable time of 6.30. So he'd sleep 10.15-11.45am and then just a CN  of 30-45 minutes around 3.15-4pm. At 15mo we moved to one nap 11-1.

You could also try wake to sleep around 3am to try to get him in the habit of going back into a deep sleep to make it past the 4-5am WU.

[Crispysage]

Thanks Ali!

All great advice. Groclock is on my wish list, not easy to procure in South Africa. Crazy thing is we are going to be traveling for 6 months as of July  so I'll pick one up state side as a soon as. Thought it would be more useful for the older one though... 14 mo not too young for that? W2s good to remember, I think I just inadvertently did it for the 11pm waking. When I used it in the past it failed, probably because I was too enthusiastic with the waking. Will see how tonight goes. Part of the trouble with the EW is he often will poop because he woke... then if I change him it's all over. You ladies are angels. Nice to have such strong support from the trenches. 

[*Ali*]

The poop thing should sort itself out in time. Might be better to happen at 3am and then he'll be tired enough to go back to sleep if it does happen then.

Yes, I guess he is a little young for the groclock to be too effective. I used one with DS2 from 15mo but it took quite a while for him to abide by it.

[Crispysage]

I'll get the clock for Ds1 as soon as possible anyway. So the last 2 nights we went out and thus driving home and bed transfer was a w2s which both nights resulted in sleeping till 4:30. I should have done a w2S now because we just had 30-40 mins of all out crying. (11pm) I gave some pain meds but he was just frantic. Kicking all limbs, smacking me, sobbing. I'm thinking SA not teething though. He has or is developing quite a temper during the day, so I think it's partially personality too. So tough though!

Poops will poops when poops happen I guess! He made an offering at BT tonight, so I think we be clean till after breakfast. 

Question re WIWO are you meant to only leave once they are calm? Or just make an appearance. I guess you have to read the cries and make a call.

[Crispysage]

I thought he was settling himself (while I was replying previously.) but he just started up again (about 10 mins of quiet) I confess, I gave him antihistamine. Rare occurrence but I'm feeling stretched very thin and tight. Sleep deprivation is torture.

When they were younger crying after settling I would normally say was pain, but it still makes sense to me it could be physiological pain. What would you say?

[*Ali*]

There's more details about doing wiwo here https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=167333.0

[Crispysage]

Thanks, is this the only info on the topic? I have re read it so many times and I got to say I need more.

I am not certain it's SA (it's not the sudden shrieking cry, although he does wake up crying a lot - even from nap.)
I can't say I am using it to "get back on track" because he has never STTN
But it seems the right method because he has pretty much always been a master of independently GOING to sleep.


"- when he cries – and he will – return to his side IMMEDIATELY and soothe again
     - repeat as often as necessary"

Is this still the MO with such an old LO?

I find I do need to let him be a little bit upset (DH is always pushing for CIO but I am NOT ever going to do that. I have found if am "forced" to let him cry, like if I can't soothe him and I go to fetch medicine or find a paci, he has fallen asleep while I am gone. So I have started to try very hard to distinguish between his tantrum/angry cry and a real "upset" cry (pretty much impossible for me though) because I have read about trying to only let him cry if it's not "real" and that seemed to work for a few nights. But then he stopped crying and now he wakes and is less standing up and arms up crying and is more lying facedown and lawnmower crying. I put my hand on his back and he will stay calm as long as I keep it there. OR he is be inconsolable even if I pick him up (which I try to avoid unless he is frantic.)

honestly, in the last two weeks the only consistent thing is that he wakes up at night and wakes up early. The appoint why and what he does changes all the time. So I am struggling with what tools to use/how to respond. I want to be consistent, but i also want to read him and respond in the way best suited.

I am starting to think I am wasting my time trying so hard to figure it out. Seems like he is going to not sleep well till he is 3 and I should just ride it out.

Is there no living Tracy?

[*Ali*]

Do you think he would be soothed by your voice just from outside the door?