Ew 13 m

[Crispysage]

Thanks... I'm afraid that's not it... he has been waking at 5 his whole life. Last winter it pushed to around 6 for a month or two. I come from a family of early walkers. 

But I'm feeling so despondent - DS2 woke at 4 again.  woke DS1 then went back to sleep, but now I'm here with DS1. And he has been fighting sleep at night, so if he only went to sleep at 7:30 that's only 8.5 hrs sleep. Feel bad cutting his day time nap now.

Keep feeling there must be a way to sort this out!

Help!!!

[Haribo2012]

Bless you it's so hard if it's any consolation my DS1 just turned 5 had took to visiting in the night and hadn't done that in months and DS2 has been waking up too. All teeth and developmental!


Also I find NW worse when they are about to come down with a cold or bug x

[Crispysage]

Hy Zoe

Now that we are recovering from the horrible cold (DS1 got pneumonia  ) sleep is returning to its unbearable pattern.

DS1 sleeps well and 2 wakes around 10/11 to cry, don't go to him because he quickly finds a dummy, but wakes again at 1/2 and is quite awake and needs a lot of help. I must say, he sounds distraught whether or not he is in pain I don't know. Then at about 4 or latest 5 he wants to wake up. I have been bringing him into the bed (DH was away) and then he will sleep till almost 7!

While he was sick he slept through as long as he had the antihistamines and pain killers.

Don't know what to do! Cant medicate him all the time.

Day time I have him on 20 min nap before 10am and then a 1.5 /2 hr nap around 2pm, BT by 7.

I think its now a NW problem, not an EW problem.

HELP!!!

DH is pushing towards more controlled crying approach and I don't have the solution to argue against it.

[Haribo2012]

Hi, oh dear it is tiring isn't it. Personally if you think it's discomfort and he sleeps I'd medicate...some teeth take forever to show. I'd try giving meds for say aweek and see what happens to the sleep!?

[Crispysage]

Ahhhhhrg. It's so tough - I don't want to over medicate - I feel like I have been drugging him for too long.

And if I am honest I am not so sure it's pain. I think he is over tired... the way he fights sleep at nap and BT is brand new. Plus he sometimes wants to feed to sleep, even at nap time  (inconsolable, I feed him and he goes to sleep...) Whereas before he would have the perfect BT routine, BF, story and some water if he wanted, we get up walk over to switch off the light together, he looks at the glow in the dark stars, I move around the room with plenty of light from the passage and DH and DS1 audibly reading story next door. He happily lies in his cot and goes to sleep. Last few nights I can tell the difference even from when we are BF. he is fidgety and unsettled. He then starts to fall asleep BF and is upset when I want to read. He then cries and fights sleep.

Tonight i drugged him and it was the perfect BT routine again so.... 

We will see.

More detailed routine so that you can evaluate OT possibility:

WU is actually all over the place. if he wakes at 4 I can bring him into the bed and get until 6:30. Otherwise he wakes at 5...

7am breakfast
9:40am S
10am A (I wake him and he is in a deep sleep)
1 lunch
2 S
3:30/4 A
5 dinner
7 BT

then the NW I mentioned before, except last night he needed an hour at midnight then slept till 4.
11 ish
1 ish
4 or 5

So that's not habitual then? (it has to be EXACTLY the same time right?)

Any other ideas why he might be waking... if it isn't pain, habit or developmental? (he is 2 weeks away from next leap.)

Thanks again!

[Crispysage]

Is there something about 14m that makes it a tricky age? SA? He seems to be struggling with just wanting to be held.

Also, do you think it's still a problem of joining night sleep (linked with the EW?) Because he is BUSHED at 9am (I usually have to keep him awake till 9:30 and he will sleep at 9 if I put him down.) Then at 12 (when we are in the car fetching brother) he is desperately tired and I have to work to keep him awake then too.

Then i feel like by the time we have come home and had lunch he is OT. I know I asked this q before and you suggested letting him sleep at 12, but I don't think that's a good idea because then he can't make it to BT (but it seems to me that he should be able to do 5hr A time. ( he often does in the morning if he wakes 4:45am and goes to sleep 9:45am

I wonder if I shouldn't be aiming to shorten the morning nap and put him down at 12:30 (impossible with brother schedule  Working towards 1 nap.

trouble is that he is so deeply asleep for the short morning nap, I always feel bad waking him. And then  he is doing 2 hrs quite close to BT (Awake 4pm - 7pm.)
 

[Crispysage]

I assume WI WO is the appropriate tool? This article only talks about it being for BT, but it must work for NW?

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=80750.0

I also assumed that WI WO was the right one (rather than gradual withdrawal) but having read this Im now not so sure because I think he does have parental dependance now.

[Haribo2012]

Sorry Hun been so busy with work not had chance to reply.

Do you think maybe his BT needs to be a bit later, it's quite common when you still have 2 naps for the day to get a bit longer.


There is so much going on, defo SA is big at this age, but so are teeth, 2-1 it's hard to figure out sometimes.

I find at 16 months are nights are much better on 1 nap which 6 out of 7! days he has but 1 day he has a little CN after his 3 nursery days he's pooped!

You either need a 12 noon 1 nap day or keep CN then later BT say 7.30 and see if it makes a difference, also if meds help it does sound like pain x

[Crispysage]

Thanks Zoe - Somewhere along the way through the 2 months that you have been advising me, the NW that I thought were unrelated, or would spontaneously resolve have become more important for me to solve.

Do you think I should post a new question about it?

My thoughts on it in any case:

I re-read chapter 7 "We're still not getting enough sleep" in The Baby Whisperer Solves All Your Problems ( the only book of T's that I have read.) It seems that we have perhaps been approaching the problem differently to how she seems to suggest. I think it is worth asking what tools I have been using to get him back to sleep. Which is why I asked about WI/WO. Can you advise about this method?

Maybe I never mentioned this, but he has never really slept through independently without medication for more than a few nights a few times in his life. I'm not sure if Tracy would term that as "never having slept through"

However, he is fully capable of intendant sleep at nap and BT. Unless he is OT or some other unusual reason he might occasionally need a little help. I guess we have been trying to figure this problem out for about 2 months and he is still waking up 3 times per night (if you could the 4:45 EW as one.)

I was previously picking him up and comforting him a lot, and while he was sick I even held him till he was asleep or let him sleep on me. I think that lapse in resolve has caused some problems now. So I am doing a gentle version of WIWO (not walking out ) I am only picking him up if I absolutely HAVE To (once a night or not at all) and I am helping him lay down and then laying down in the room. 2 night ago it took 2 hours. Last night 20 mins. But i still wonder why he wakes up... (when he woke at 11 I didn't have to go to him.) I went to him at 3 and then just got up at 4:45.

I did medicate him both nights.

The only example that I have read where Tracey advises on a similar situation (the child goes to sleep independently, but NW) she had done CIO before and I am on the other end of the spectrum tending to AP, so I didnt find it a helpful scenario. Do you know of a similar situation in one of Tracey's other books where she advises what to do?

I am wondering if the fact that I constantly have struggled to wake him up from his morning nap (and should I still be having to wake him? I would have thought after a month he would settle into the routine and wake himself if it was a good routine for him?) I am just wondering if the 20 min nap is making him OT.

To make matters worse DS1 is dropping his only nap  and I am afraid I don't have it in me to deal with a 1-0 transition right now!!! 

Anyway, any thoughts or helpful hints super welcome - also I wondered if asking one of the other moderators for thoughts? I'm getting more and more burnt out and desperate.   
 

[Haribo2012]

Hi I would post a new topic now he's a little older so people can have a fresh look. I'll ask someone else to take a look but often a new post is good to start a fresh x

[Crispysage]

Will do, you're the best Zoe!

[*Ali*]

I just read through this thread.

I think wiwo is the right tool since he has gone to sleep independently in the past.  Maybe start by standing outside the bedroom door so he can see you through the crack if you feel going right out is too much for him to start with.

You could also try doing wiwo at 4-5am for a while. Have you considered a groclock? You could start by just doing it until 5.20am or something and then gradually push it later as he gets the idea.

If you can I think I'd just ditch the morning CN and jump straight to one nap. Would 11am work with school runs?

Or when my DS2 was early waking at 5 I found the only way to combat it was to push the first nap as late as possible as if he'd woken at a more reasonable time of 6.30. So he'd sleep 10.15-11.45am and then just a CN  of 30-45 minutes around 3.15-4pm. At 15mo we moved to one nap 11-1.

You could also try wake to sleep around 3am to try to get him in the habit of going back into a deep sleep to make it past the 4-5am WU.

[Crispysage]

Thanks Ali!

All great advice. Groclock is on my wish list, not easy to procure in South Africa. Crazy thing is we are going to be traveling for 6 months as of July  so I'll pick one up state side as a soon as. Thought it would be more useful for the older one though... 14 mo not too young for that? W2s good to remember, I think I just inadvertently did it for the 11pm waking. When I used it in the past it failed, probably because I was too enthusiastic with the waking. Will see how tonight goes. Part of the trouble with the EW is he often will poop because he woke... then if I change him it's all over. You ladies are angels. Nice to have such strong support from the trenches. 

[*Ali*]

The poop thing should sort itself out in time. Might be better to happen at 3am and then he'll be tired enough to go back to sleep if it does happen then.

Yes, I guess he is a little young for the groclock to be too effective. I used one with DS2 from 15mo but it took quite a while for him to abide by it.

[Crispysage]

I'll get the clock for Ds1 as soon as possible anyway. So the last 2 nights we went out and thus driving home and bed transfer was a w2s which both nights resulted in sleeping till 4:30. I should have done a w2S now because we just had 30-40 mins of all out crying. (11pm) I gave some pain meds but he was just frantic. Kicking all limbs, smacking me, sobbing. I'm thinking SA not teething though. He has or is developing quite a temper during the day, so I think it's partially personality too. So tough though!

Poops will poops when poops happen I guess! He made an offering at BT tonight, so I think we be clean till after breakfast. 

Question re WIWO are you meant to only leave once they are calm? Or just make an appearance. I guess you have to read the cries and make a call.