Author Topic: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working  (Read 6695 times)

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Offline jessmum46

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2017, 18:47:31 pm »
Have you thought about reducing her nap?  Reading through besides the developmental things it sounds very like she could be UT at bedtime and therefore putting up a fight.  I'd be tempted to cut to 1.5h max and see if she can settle better?  I often found developmental leaps meant less sleep, and I'd suspect the 2h nap may be robbing her night a bit x

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2017, 18:58:55 pm »
This does sound like SA and there are a bunch of things happening, the big ones are:
- turning 2yo, birthdays area always the times of sleep disturbance here
- SA, normal at this age and the developmental leaps
- SA, she knows a baby is coming and needs to confirm her place in the family and be reassured she is still cared for
then also but perhaps less so:
- possibly needing less day time sleep, she is taking about 2hr nap I think and some totally drop their nap at 24 months, yes it's on the earlier side but it is not unheard of. Mine thought he wanted to drop his nap at 25 months but it took 6 months of faffing around before he finally did it

My own didn't do well with capped naps so although I tried it I had to find other ways to come to terms with the change in sleep needs and routine - the options are cap the nap so she is more tired for night sleep (and just less energy for all those call backs) or accept she isn't going to go to sleep until later and move BT significantly later. This can make night sleep very short but the long day nap more than compensates (well it did for mine, he kept his 2hr nap until 31 months then dropped it cold turkey).

With the SA and call backs - heaps of Mummy time whenever you can in the day of course, I think you are already doing this. Then here's what I'd do:
- never leave her waiting. The second she calls for you even if it is not crying it is "mummy" you go. Reinforce that you *always* attend to her whenever she needs you. (when I say you I mean you or daddy).  for this reason I would suggest camping outside her room at BT with a book or a cuppa, or both.
- when you go in to respond to her first time go right in and do what is normal, quick back rub or whatever you would usually do. Always tell her before you leave the room, never sneak away.  BUT you are not her prisoner and you will not be held prisoner and you will not let her dictate where you sit - she needs to know this and at the same time needs to know she is safe and always responded to.  When you leave the room say "night night, call if you need me".
- If she cries and fusses right away repeat "everything is fine, go to sleep, call if you need me" and leave the room - you can stop outside the door
- the second she fusses or calls you, you are still outside the door use verbal reassurance "I'm here, go to sleep"
- if she cries hard go in, back rub etc and then when calm, "call if you need me" and leave
- continue with a combo of WIWO and verbal reassurance from outside the door because you do need to get out of that room and shift your position of where she is happy for you to be whilst still building and maintaining her confidence. (note, she is confident in you when you are under her control standing at the cot, she loses confidence when you step away, it is up to you to move this position of confidence.  You need the position to end up being you downstairs again - it will be after this phase passes).
- if she is crying and you walk back in and she stops crying, lies down and is quiet again (it sounds like this is happening) do not walk a step further, just say "go to sleep" and leave.  then she calls again and you are outside you say "go to sleep" - you can be quite "instructional" with your tone of voice (firm - call it teacher voice? it is not shouting or telling off it is giving clear instruction of what you expect her to do), show her in your tone that you are confident that this is absolutely the right thing to do right now and that you absolutely know she can do it.  I say this because personally I feel with SA LOs need to know they are utterly safe and part of that is hearing the confidence in your tone rather than trying to cajole her into sleep.  Make sense?
- if she tries to chit-chat after BT. First time I would say "This is not time for chit chat. This is night time, go to sleep" but not engage in her chat or answer her questions, next time reduce down to "go to sleep".
- if she is babbling happily when you are outside the room you can decide to let her continue (until you have to respond because she calls you) or you can choose to reinforce the instruction "be quiet, go to sleep".

I've had a couple of phases like this with my DS (when he was younger). I did best when I took a book and a cuppa up with me, say goodnight as usual and then get comfortable outside his door where I could verbally reassure.  I will say though that as I have not been fortunate enough to have a second child I have not dealt with the SA which comes during pregnancy and when a new baby comes home.  I think I would deal with it in the same way.


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2017, 01:09:43 am »
Haribo,
  No, I do not give her any meds when she wakes up at night.  I just put my hand on her back for a split second or sometimes have to pick her up for a minute and she is pretty much back to sleep within 5 mins. 

Jessmum,
  Her naps have been closer to 1.5 hrs lately since she's been falling asleep around 1:10 and waking up crying for me at 2:20.  She is definitely tired at bedtime as she is the one who tells me she wants to go in to bed and is rubbing her eyes and yawning.  When she would let DH put her to bed last week she would be asleep by 7:45 on her own compared to the 8:25 drawn out with me in the room. 

Creations,
  Yes, definitely SA to the extreme.  She has always had issues with separation, sometimes I can't even go upstairs to take a shower without her crying downstairs the whole time with DH.  She is definitely not ready to drop her nap, as she gets majorly OT on the rare days that she takes a short one for whatever reason.  She either takes forever to fall asleep because she is so wired, or she falls asleep almost instantly (not during this phase of course). 
  I tried to follow your plan tonight when I put her down, but the problem is she won't even let me put her down.  She clings to my neck and literally climbs up me saying "mommy" before I even make a motion to leave the room.  Every time I tried to lay her down she just clings harder and starts crying already.  I got out of the room about 3 times and tried to verbally reassure, but each time she just started crying as soon as she touched the mattress because she knew I was going to leave.  She didn't lay down at all, she stood at the side of her crib crying until I picked her up.  So she will definitely be up tonight because I wasn't even able to just be in the room when she fell asleep, I was holding her when she fell asleep because she practically had me in a choke hold.  And once she was asleep and I went to lay her down she was crying again until I held my hand on her back to keep her laying and asleep.  I will try again tomorrow night and see if she makes any progress, but so far every night has gotten a little worse than the previous. 

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2017, 10:37:42 am »
It does sound very hard. The thing is, and I mean this in the nicest way, you are reinforcing that if she clings on and cries longer she will get what she wants which is sleeping in your arms out of bed (and then crying again in when you put her down).  Whilst I do not mean for a moment that you are to reject her (not at all) there is only you who can shift her to a position of less anxiety where she is more confident to go into her bed.  It is the same for little babies, very many of them would love to sleep in arms all day and can keep a parent prisoner by crying long and hard until they get to sleep in arms - the shift comes when you are still supportive but clear on what the boundaries are and she learns (or re-learns) that she is still cared for and loved (that never changed) but you are not going to continue to be held prisoner.

As you've mentioned her nap is getting shorter how about shifting it 30 min later to 1.30pm and seeing if she can get a better nap?  Mine would wake crying after an UT nap because he needed more sleep than that and like I said before he was one of those who needed to keep his long nap but a shorter night until he was ready to totally drop the nap. It does mean a later WU from nap and this will likely require a later BT too. The nights may well be shorter as a result but the overall sleep would be enough.  You might find that with a better nap again she is already in a better mood and not so clingy.  It looks like her nap is down to 1hr 10 min some days which mine would have just fallen apart with.


Offline Haribo2012

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2017, 11:46:08 am »
Was just checking with meds in case there were any teeth in the move.

Do agree with creations and in the nicest way you have to kind of put your hard shell on and be there but be firm and say no more picking up etc it's time for sleep. The multiple wakes are because she's used to you cuddling her back off. I remember a phase with DS1 around this age where I spent a long time sat on the floor at the end of the cot repeating "it's ok time to sleep now" I know it's of no consolation to you but once I fell asleep against the wall  ;D

I'd try really sticking to not picking her up if you can and she should get the idea fairly quickly...before baby 2 comes hopefully  :-*
Zoe


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #20 on: May 11, 2017, 13:12:11 pm »
So when I first go to put her to bed and am holding her, should I lay her down despite clinging and crying, and walk out then walk right back in to reassure and not pick her up at all regardless of how hard she cries or reaches, or should I not walk out when she is crying?  It could be a good 20+ minutes for her to relax enough for me to put her down if I wait til she isn't going to cry.  And I should wait til she is calm before leaving again regardless of whether she is laying or standing?  When I walk out, should I try to reassure her with my voice first even if she is crying, or should I immediately go in until she is starting to calm?  She seemed to be more ok last night the first 2 times I went out and was more just whining rather than crying, but after that the crying escalated each time I left. 

As far as her naps, they are only shorter like that for me.  When she is at the sitter or daycare she generally naps from 1-2:30/3 depending on the day and is fine when she wakes up.  Yesterday was the first day in a while that she woke up content from her nap for me, even though I had to pat her to sleep.  I think that stems from daycare though, because I'm pretty sure that they pat her to sleep there.  Their schedule is nap at 1, so that's why I have her at that time.

When you dealt with SA with yours, how long did it last?  I am hoping that maybe when I am in the hospital and she is with my in-laws that she will snap out of it because she doesn't have the option of me being there.  But I'm also preparing that things are just going to get worse when the baby is here because she will be away from me for a few days, which she has never done, and then will have to share me when I come home.

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #21 on: May 11, 2017, 14:48:00 pm »
It's more kind of do to with getting your head and approach in the most helpful state to be successful rather than a very strict "step by step you must follow this" script of exactly what to do.  Some examples which might seem kind of off topic but might help explain the place where your head and approach needs to be (as Zoe said, putting your hard shell on):
- if a LO is told to hold hands when approaching a road but refuses do we just let them run into the road or do we make sure we grab them with a firm grip?  We use a very firm voice with instruction "hold hands" "danger!" and at some quieter time during the day away from roads we might explain in a more complex way what the danger is, what the rules are, use toys to role play
- if a child grabs a dog/cat/other child in a vice like grip being friendly or in anger what do we do? Let them continue? Or remove them with gentle but firm hands using the amount of force required but not being mean to them, "let go!" At a quiet time we might practise and role play how to touch with gentle hands, we demonstrate and use safe props to practice with, reinforcing positive instruction "use gentle hands".
- if a child reaches for a hot oven, a glass vase, a sharp object we don't let them continue we stop them "leave it" or if it is more pressing "danger! stop!"
It usually doesn't need shouting or telling off and never needs to involve rejection of the child but it does require the parent to be very firm, very clear and there to be NO leeway or negotiation.
During this SA and your LOs BT routine you are leaving the doors wide open not only to negotiation but you are handing her the responsibility of how things are going to go.  Too much power for a LO can leave them in a bit of a tizz as they want you to be in control, and this in turn helps them to feel confident in you.

I would begin way before BT, have a chat, she can understand what you say even if she can't form complex sentences. Tell her exactly what is going to happen at BT and exactly what is expected.  Show her with dolls/cuddly toys.  Be clear that she is very important to you and you will always always keep her safe and will always come when she needs you.  Be clear that she is not to cling to you or you will have to remove her and this might be upsetting.  Tell her you don't like it when she clings and you want BT to be lovely cuddles and smiles and happy time so she can go to dream land and have a lovely dream. See if you can get her to agree (doesn't mean she can/will follow through later but you are setting the ground work and can keep practising).

Then, personally if my kid was clinging, he would hear a very very firm voice - "let go of me" and I'd give him a chance to let go nicely but if necessary I'd remove him off me.
The danger of picking up again once she is in the cot is that she will again cling to you. If this repeats I would tell her firmly that you are not going to pick her up at all but you will not leave her.  If she can indicate that she understands this and will not cling then you can give her another try (I'd only give one extra try) for a calm cuddle and when it's time to go back into the cot she must go down without clinging, warn her "Remember our deal, you don't cling to me, you cuddle then let go. I'm going to put you down now and I will stay with you, let go sweetie".  And put her down. Clinging again, firm voice and remove her.  And for me - I just wouldn't pick up again. I'd sit in the room if I had to and I would reassure with voice. "I'm here, you are safe. Go to sleep"

If she stands in the cot screaming at you, again instructions "sit down" (often easier to follow this step first) then "lie down" "go to sleep".  I would not tell her not to call you and I would not tell her to stop crying.

I wouldn't hold out for her snapping out of it just because she stays with someone else for a few days. LOs learn habits with different care givers very quickly. My DS was basically forced to learn to take the occasional nap in a pram with my mother, there is not a hope in hell he would ever do that with me looking after him, he needed his cot or the car seat and that was that.  Nursery or in-laws can have their own methods of putting LOs to sleep but its *with you* that she has the difficulty and that's partly because you are her primary care giver so she needs you more, plays up with you more, lets out her emotions with you and it's also partly because for a little while you have given in to her demands and she's learned to cry hard and get you to pick her up at nap time and BT and through the night.  I'm afraid only you can make this change.

SA is horrible and certainly all LOs go through it, we do need to give them additional time and support at such tricky times for them, but this is where longer term habits can form too.

should I lay her down despite clinging and crying, and walk out then walk right back in to reassure
I personally would not walk out the room.  I would put her down and stay in the room.

And I should wait til she is calm before leaving again regardless of whether she is laying or standing?
I think somewhere you said she would stop crying as soon as you walked in and then be happy chatty and lay down.  If she is not crying then leave. If she is crying then stay.  She does not need to be calm or asleep or even trying to fall asleep for you to leave but she needs to be not crying (shouting in an angry or frustrated voice is not crying, it is angry, this is an example of when I would leave the room and stay outside saying "be quiet, go to sleep". If she calls your name respond verbally or by going in.

Keep in mind there are thousands of parents who cannot pick up their children because they have a bad back of RSI in the arms (from holding children too long) or a disability, recovering from operations or a whole number of reasons. They can usually still deal with SA and be with their child to reassure them without picking up. The love is not less, the care is not less.  It is simply a matter of not picking up and working out another way to reassure.

I  know this is not an "answer" but hope it helps.

I think if the nap can't move I'd put her to be significantly later. 30 min later than you usually do.


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2017, 01:03:14 am »
 :'( Definitely don't know how I'm going to handle doing this.   :'(  I told her before bed exactly what I was going to do, and she repeated it all back to me but obviously didn't comprehend a word.  I sang her songs, she gave me a hug and a kiss and started crying the moment she felt I was going to lay her down, but I put her down anyways.  I reminded her that I wasn't going to pick her up, and then she spent the last hour plus crying blood curdling screams while I stood next to her repeating "you're ok, lay down and go to sleep" about 5,000 times.  She was delirious and couldn't even stand straight from standing so long and crying so hard, and was practically hyperventilating.  At one point about 40 minutes into it she got mad that I was standing next to her and not picking her up and hit me and threw her doggie across the room.  Eventually I couldn't take standing there that long and watching her get that upset while repeating the same things over and over again that she couldn't even hear because her crying was so loud, so I ended up picking her up to settle her down and she was asleep almost instantly.  I know I'm not supposed to give in after all that because it makes all the crying and work up to that point useless, but I was about to lose it and start crying myself seeing her like that.  I'm always afraid that putting her through that is just going to cause more sleep anxiety because she knows what is going to come at bedtime.  I don't know if I should just wait to try again until after the baby is here and hope that the SA eases a bit because I don't want to be in the middle of this torture and then go into labor and not be here when she wakes up then because that is only going to make things worse.  Or if I should try again tomorrow and hope for better results.  With being due in 2 days, I don't know if I will end up having the time to be consistent, or if I will just have to start over again after the hospital. 

Offline Haribo2012

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2017, 06:37:09 am »
You can only do what you feel happy and comfortable with and if you want to stop then that's totally up to sweetie we can only tell you what experiences we have had.
One thing to remember is that sometimes it comes down to who has the strongest will...you or her and last night she held out.
I don't think waiting a few days will hurt so if that's stressful for you then pop back when you have had the baby, but if you want to carry on we will be here to hold your hand x
Zoe


Offline Palmira78

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2017, 07:50:21 am »
I fully agree with the advice from Haribo and Creations.
My suggestion would be as well not to leave the room (that step is a little bit too far away at the moment since you need to re-gain the trust of your LO), but get yourself some good ear plugs, or headphones with relaxing music to be able to cope with the shouting. Also I would make myself confortable and would get a good armchair or matress to be with your child in a relaxed position. This was also suggested in the Secrets of the baby whisperer book or in the BW for todlers, I read both. One of my 2 children was pretty much the same as yours, and I can assure you that if you are consistent you will make the situation improve. You need to be in control of the situation, and be the one setting up the rules. Your LO is learning!!! This is key for the wellness of your LO and yourself.

Offline mommykay410

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2017, 13:55:28 pm »
Well she did only wake up once last night at 1:30, but I think that was because she was so emotionally exhausted.  It took me a little longer than normal to put her back to sleep, and I did hold her then because I did not need her being up for hours, but she slept til 6:20 this morning then.  I guess I will try again tonight and see if it gets any better.

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2017, 14:05:55 pm »
You can only do what you feel happy and comfortable with and if you want to stop then that's totally up to sweetie we can only tell you what experiences we have had.
One thing to remember is that sometimes it comes down to who has the strongest will...you or her and last night she held out.
I don't think waiting a few days will hurt so if that's stressful for you then pop back when you have had the baby, but if you want to carry on we will be here to hold your hand x
Yes, all of this.

If you are trying again tonight I would say to expect longer crying rather than shorter.  Unfortunately this is hard.  Keep reminding yourself though, you have no abandoned her, she is angry and frustrated but she is not in danger.
Maybe settle yourself by her cot on a chair so she can see you are not going, maybe try facing just slightly away from her, only in the sense of not making full on face to face eye contact all the time which can be a bit, erm, what's the word, confrontational? Not really the word I want but perhaps you understand what I mean.


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #27 on: May 13, 2017, 02:20:16 am »
Her will was stronger than mine again unfortunately, although I made it longer than last night.   :-[  After 2 1/2 hours of nonstop screaming, not even a second of calm or attempting to lay down at all, I drew the line at 10:00.  She could've gone on for hours longer like that and never fall asleep at the rate she was going.  And she will now be miserable all day tomorrow because she will be getting such little sleep since this is 2 hours later than she normally falls asleep.  I picked her up and laid her right back down after about 30 seconds, mostly because I had a pinched nerve that was literally not allowing me to stand anymore without jolting and folding over in pain.  I'm wondering if me staying in the room the whole time isn't making it worse because she is just staring at me the whole time and confused about why I'm not picking her up regardless of how many times I say it.  I almost feel like it's a tease that I am right there but she can't have me.  Guess I'm back to square one again tomorrow night :'(

Offline Haribo2012

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #28 on: May 13, 2017, 06:06:48 am »
It's so hard isn't it, are you standing or sitting in there? x
Zoe


Offline mommykay410

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Re: 2 yr old back to not falling asleep on own, wiwo not working
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2017, 12:37:43 pm »
I sat on the yoga ball for a while then on a pillow on the floor.  At first I was saying "you're ok, lay down and go to sleep" almost constantly but then stopped and just sat there because I felt my voice was distracting and keeping her from being able to settle.  I just don't know how she can go on screaming like that for so long.  I know I shouldn't have given in, but how long am I supposed to let her go on like that?  She was up then at 3:30 and took til 5 to fall back to sleep but I picked her up then because I needed to go back to sleep.  Then she was up at 6 crying again.  I had to wake her up at 7:20 otherwise her schedule would be all over the place today.  Hoping she can catch up a bit during nap.  Although I'm not expecting her to fall asleep early at all tonight either at this rate.