17wk old EASY and early morning wakings

[Hoofbeat]

I've posted several times on here about trying to get my 17wk old DS onto an EASY schedule and it feels like each time I make some progress with getting closer to EASY, we hit another stumbling block!

I think he's ready for 2hrs A time and (when he does take a full feed) can go 3.5hrs happily between feeds, but I have several issues:

1. Every night he wakes around 5am for a feed (this is the only time he wakes) and after that I really really struggle to get him back into a deep sleep until his wake up time of 7am. He is usually easy to get back to sleep - I lie him awake in his cot, he doesn't grumble and with either a very gentle shush pat or sometimes even just holding my hand on him he'll fall asleep. However, 45minutes later he wakes up. Sometimes I can shush pat him back to sleep again (but this is usually hard work) but most days by 6:30am he is wide awake. I've left him in his cot sometimes from 6:30-7am as he isn't crying and just making happy noises, but I'm at a loss as to how to handle the rest of the morning. Because he fed at 5am, he is rarely hungry at 7am. I was reading in a forum post (https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69369.0) that I should keep him up until his usual nap time (9am) despite the fact that he woke earlier at 6:30am, as in theory he should eventually learn that 7am is our wake up time. However, this doesn't seem to be working and every day he still wakes up early and ends up OT as the day progresses. If he wakes at 6:30am, should I instead be putting him down for 8:30am and shift my entire day?

2. Last night we tried introducing a DF to see if we could delay the 5am feed, but it made no difference - he still woke hungry. Should I stick with the DF for a few more days, or if it was going to work would it have worked straight away?

3. Naps Just when I thought we'd made progress with naps we are struggling again. I stretched his A time to 2 hours and suddenly he was napping much better and we were getting some longer naps, but all this week we've only managed 35-45minute naps. I've tried shush patting him back to sleep when he wakes to extend them but that fails and he gets very upset. I've then kept him up for 2hours according to when he woke from the nap (rather than 2 hours according to the schedule we were working on) but then our E times are all wrong and we end up needing 4 (or more) naps during the day instead of 3! This also causes us issues as yesterday he woke from his nap at 3:15pm, but BT isn't until 7pm! I ended up taking him for a drive at 4:45pm and managed to get him to have a 20min cat nap, but then he was still OT at BT and didn't go down to sleep until 7:30pm.

Is this all just signs of the 4 month sleep regression? The EASY routine I'm trying to get him on is:

7:00 - Fixed WU. E and A
9:00 - S
10:30 - E and A
12:30 - S
14:00 - E and A
16:00 - S (shorter nap)
17:00 - E and A
19:00 - S (Fixed BT)

I'm happy if he wakes at 5am for a feed (he's BF so I don't expect him to STTN yet), but right now it's not working with the 7am WU!

NB. We haven't tried PU/PD yet and have still been sticking with Shush Pat (and he is definitely getting quicker at falling asleep for the naps during the day and had been going down to bed easily at 7am).

ETS: We don't use a dummy with him, he isn't swaddled (has always hated it) and the room is dark (we have a blackout blind and black curtains) so I don't think the 5am WU is due to the light.

[creations]

Hi

I stretched his A time to 2 hours and suddenly he was napping much better and we were getting some longer naps, but all this week we've only managed 35-45minute naps.

How long were you on the 2hr A time and for how long did his naps improve before going short again?

I was reading in a forum post (https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=69369.0) that I should keep him up until his usual nap time (9am) despite the fact that he woke earlier at 6:30am, as in theory he should eventually learn that 7am is our wake up time. However, this doesn't seem to be working and every day he still wakes up early and ends up OT as the day progresses. If he wakes at 6:30am, should I instead be putting him down for 8:30am and shift my entire day?

For how long have you tried with the 9am nap despite the slightly earlier WU time?  And when you did the 9am nap with the longer A time (say waking at 6.30am) how was the nap? short or long?
It's kind of up to you with regards to if you move nap to 8.30am.  If you try it you might find LO wakes even earlier so it just makes the problem worse. However some LOs do sleep better with a shorter first A time so if you find an 8.30am nap is better for your LO and gets you onto a better routine then sure go ahead.  Once the routine is established you could move the day on a bit again by shifting everything ( like we do for clock changes).

2. Last night we tried introducing a DF to see if we could delay the 5am feed, but it made no difference - he still woke hungry. Should I stick with the DF for a few more days, or if it was going to work would it have worked straight away?

For some it takes time to get used to the DF. You can also try it at a slightly different time to catch LO in a different part of the sleep cycle which may help. Mine never ate when asleep but I always did a feed at the DF time - mind you mine was always up at 5am!!
Or perhaps you could try feeding at 4am instead of 5am, it could be easier to get him back to sleep - wouldn't be my personal preference though, I'm rubbish at 4am.

If you find he is not hungry for the WU milk you can do E a bit later - just put a few mins A between E and S to avoid a feed to sleep prop. Otherwise the times are not that important, so:
NF 5am
WU 6.30
E 8.30 (3.5hr since last E)
A 2hr (or more if going with the set 9am nap time)
S 9.00 - 10.30
E 12 (3.5hr since last E)
A 2hr
S 12.30
and so on. Only you would need to reduce E to 3hrs if you wanted to do the first nap at 8.30 or if it takes longer than 30 mins to feed to be finished in time for nap.

[Hoofbeat]

Thanks creations, we had a week where there was a definite improvement in his naps - not all of them, but some of them. I was managing to get 1.5-2hour naps from him (at least one each day and sometimes more) and then this Monday he suddenly would only nap 35-45minutes and we've been struggling since.

I've been trying a fixed WU time of 7am for over a week with a fixed first nap at 9am. End of last week we had good naps at 9am (even 2 hours one day) but now they're all short (35-45mins).

This morning so far has gone like this:

5am - Eat
5:30am - Tried to get him to sleep, but he woke a few minutes after I rolled him on his back. My OH took over and he eventually fell asleep at 6:30am!
7:00am - Woke. Activity.
7:20am - Very small feed then more activity. Took another small feed at 8:30am.
9:00am - S (he fell asleep in about 5 minutes with very little fussing)
9:35am - Woke up. I tried shush patting him back to sleep,  he kept drifting off but then waking. Eventually he fell asleep but when I rolled him onto his back he woke at 09:50am.
9:50am - Activity
10:30am - Feed
11:25am - Sleep (I tried putting him down at just after 11am, rather than keeping him awake full 2 hours but he was difficult to get him down).
11:55am - He just woke up

I have considered waking him earlier in night to feed him, but he's not consistent with the time he wakes up (the other week it was 3:30am, and some days 4:30am, but last week it's been closer to 5am most days). Even when he woke at 3:30am, we were finding it difficult for him to go back to sleep for more than 45minutes, and every time he woke up we'd have to use shush pat to get him to sleep.

I've been trying to delay his feed first thing as he's not hungry, but I'm still really getting him to take much of a feed at all before his 9am nap. I posted another thread the other day as I feel he's a bit of a snacker at the moment. We've increased his reflux meds in case it's that, but I'm not sure it is his reflux and think he's either teething or its just because life is too exciting now! I always make sure I add some kind of A in between E so it isn't a prop, but I'd prefer it if I didn't feed so close to the sleep because that's not good for his reflux.

ETS: He just woke up at 11:55am.

[creations]

we had a week where there was a definite improvement in his naps - not all of them, but some of them. I was managing to get 1.5-2hour naps from him (at least one each day and sometimes more)

Based on this I would increase A time by 10-15 mins and move that first nap. So 9.15am or 2hr 15 A time which ever is later.

After a shorter nap I would keep his A time to a full 2hr or reduce only by 15 mins or so.

You might just be stuck with the 5am feed for now - I know its a pain getting them back to sleep at that time!

[Hoofbeat]

Thanks creations. I'm not sure if he could handle that long awake as we only very recently stepped up
to 2hrs A time and on Tuesday this week when I did get him to take reasonable naps (purely because we were travelling in car) he really struggled to stay up longer than 2hours when we were at my mum's bday lunch, although saying that after staying up almost 3hours he did sleep for 1.5hrs (not my intention but he was struggling to fall asleep in his pram in the busy restaurant).

Do you think I should increase A to 2hr10-15 throughout the day or just for first nap? At moment when he is waking at 6:30 (not today) and I'm putting him down at 9am, i suppose I should try getting him asleep for 8:45 then (as then he'll have been up 2hr15).

Today so far I've only kept him up 1.5hrs after a short nap and he's still waking up happy after 35minutes (no crying but wide awake and smiley). Will try keeping him up now 1hr45 and seeing how that goes.

Maybe I just need to accept 6:30am as his WU time and go with it. In that case would you also bring his BT forward from 7 to 6:30?

[creations]

At moment when he is waking at 6:30 (not today) and I'm putting him down at 9am, i suppose I should try getting him asleep for 8:45 then (as then he'll have been up 2hr15).

You've been currently working with 2hr A time or 9am whichever is the later of these two, which means going over 2hrs if WU is earlier than 7am. To clarify what I have suggested is 2hr 15 or 9.15 whichever is the later - not moving the nap earlier.

I would increase across the day, it's only an additional 10-15 mins and really he is getting over tired from short naps anyway so I wouldn't worry about OT caused by a slightly longer A time. The risk is some OT which he is already getting, the possible benefit is a return to longer naps and well rested which you were getting for a week after increasing the A time to 2hrs.
Like I said though, if there is a short nap you can reduce back to 2hr instead of 2hr 15

It's your call - always your call - these are just my suggestions.  People are more often scared of OT but in my experience UT is worse as the naps just don't improve. Shorter A times would be fine if there was evidence of it leading to good naps and a consistent routine. 1.5hr A time is really more appropriate for a 3 month old rather than a 4 month old, it is unlikely to lead to a restful sleep IMO.

[Hoofbeat]

At moment when he is waking at 6:30 (not today) and I'm putting him down at 9am, i suppose I should try getting him asleep for 8:45 then (as then he'll have been up 2hr15).

You've been currently working with 2hr A time or 9am whichever is the later of these two, which means going over 2hrs if WU is earlier than 7am. To clarify what I have suggested is 2hr 15 or 9.15 whichever is the later - not moving the nap earlier.

Sorry, I misunderstood you to begin with - I'll blame the tiredness! I'll try that then and only keep him awake 2hr15 to begin with. If we get a long nap, great we'll stick with that A time throughout the day, but if we get a short nap then we'll go for 2hr A time rest of the day.

Tonight I'm going to put him to bed at 6pm as he napped from 3:15-4pm, and I don't think I have time to get in another catnap before a BT of 7pm, so I think it's safer to aim for 6/6:15 BT.

[creations]

Hope you had a good night

[Hoofbeat]

Hope you had a good night

So he was quite difficult to get down to bed last night and wouldn't take a good feed before bed, but we managed to get him in bed at 6:25pm as he was so tired. Didn't bother with DF last night. He woke at 1245 (genuinely hungry I believe as he didn't take much during the day), then again at 4pm (again hungry), managed to get him back to sleep but he woke at 5:05, fell asleep again eventually but woke at 6:20am hungry again! Fed him and got him up and OH just put him down for a nap after 2hr15mins. Will keep fingers crossed!!

[creations]

Actually doesn't sound too bad considering he didn't take a good BT feed and was very tired.
FX for today's naps

[Hoofbeat]

He just woke up after 25 minutes Would that be UT or OT? Room was dark, and he doesn't seem hungry. OH trying to resettle him to sleep.

[Hoofbeat]

Kept him up 1hr55mins (including wind down) as he was starting to show some tired cues, and again he woke from his nap at 24mins. I've now managed to use shush pat to get him straight back down again.

Any ideas why his naps are getting even shorter? Can short naps also be caused by teething? He is dribbling lots, chewing his hand, has a slight red nose and I've caught him rubbing his ears a couple of times, but his cheeks aren't red. Just wondering if he is teething and if that might be the cause?

[creations]

Teething can definitely be a cause of sleep disturbance even when LO appears to be happy when up and about.  Otherwise those very short naps sound a bit OT or OS but as you were previously getting a better nap on 2hrs A time I wouldn't really have thought that 1hr 55 could be too long.