minimum 3.5hr A time schedule help

[Buntybear]

Oh no, hope he feels better soon xx

[creations]

Hope he is better soon x

[airam]

Hi, I'm back again.

The sickness was really bad and we had to return to the hospital for shots daily and...I'm just glad it's over.

He slept well during the sickness but immediately afterwards he started refusing to sleep for BD and cried bloody murder until I gave up and nursed to sleep. The molars were/are coming in. Then the morning nap went the same way. So even now, more than a month later, we are back to square one; sleeping in my arms for naps and nursing to sleep for all sleep times.

HHHhhhhh..where do I start?

[creations]

Oh I'm really sorry to hear he was so poorly - what a worry!
Good to hear he's over it now though

Is the nursing to sleep a new thing?  Did you intend to continue to BF beyond 12 months or were you hoping to stop now?
Is he eating solids okay, back to regular appetite since his illness or is he off food?
Sleeping okay over night once he's eventually gone down?

If you can post your current EAS times with notes about how you are settling, where LO is sleeping, mood etc I'll have a look.

[airam]

Sorry for the delay.

Since STing, I stopped nursing to sleep so it's new as of about 1.5 months ago. The last time we spoke, I agreed to allow him to nap in my arms for the 30 min afternoon nap. I can hold him like that without nursing so that's what happened. Then he refused bedtime...then nap 1.

Right now, this is the routine

wu 7am
n1 10-12pm (I'm only able to do this after a short a time because of nursing/sleeping on me)
n2 3-4pm
bt start at 715 and has been getting harder and harder...sometimes he wont sleep until 8pm or 830pm

nw- anywhere from 1-2x...12/1am and/or 3/4am ...



other things:
-I need to continue nursing for medical reasons but on a st routine, I would never nurse to sleep except during nw. I only have a few months to go.
-he's getting molars on every side and not eating a lot of solids unless I distract and feed purees. some days, he will eat great at lunch and/or dinner
-hes very VERY clingy and cries a lot more than normal
-for a few nights recently he was actually sttn or at least until 5am. I think he likes the cold so I'm trying to keep it colder than I like
-even with sleeping on me, he still wakes up at the 1hr mark for naps. most times he will even stand and look around (when on his bed, he would wu and cry after 1hr then sleep in my arms)...1.5-2hr solid naps without waking up are rare for him. I just dont know what to do.
-before all this and the sickness, we moved the first nap up to 4hrs after wu. it still wasn't enough to get a solid 2hrs of sleep...but now that he's taking longer to sleep for bt, I'm wondering if he now needs more wake time before bed. I read that we should stick with the 2 nap schedule for as long as possible...do you think we should try 1 nap?

I feel like I no longer know when he really needs to sleep since ive been helping him a longer.

[creations]

-I need to continue nursing for medical reasons but on a st routine, I would never nurse to sleep except during nw. I only have a few months to go.

I hope you didn't feel I was implying you should stop.  Many members like to continue BF for an extended period,it's fine. I was only looking for information.

On the subject of information, can I get a little more please?

n1 10-12pm (I'm only able to do this after a short a time because of nursing/sleeping on me)

This nap looks a bit too early  but I'm not sure what you mean that it needs to be after a short A time because of nursing/sleeping on you. Can you expand on that please?  Would it be possible to extend this A time now to the 4hrs(+) we were talking about previously?

n2 3-4pm

Is this nap 1hr or is it 30 mins in arms?

I think for your LOs age it is likely that you do ned to move towards the one longer nap and one CN.
At this point I would not increase the A time before BT as this could lead to OT which can show at NWs. That A time before BT comes after a CN not a long nap so it wouldn't be the place that I would increase. Rather I'd shift nap 1 later, have it long, shift nap 2 to where it needs to be to allow for a good A time before and after it so there is as little resistance to both the CN and BT...and be open minded about BT.  With the 7am WU you are getting now I wouldn't even try BT until 8pm to give 11hr night but it's when the naps are positioned during the day which can alter how well he sleeps.

do you think we should try 1 nap?

At this point it would be a huge leap to go to 1 nap.  LO needs to manage a 5hr+ A time before the nap and again after it.  Moving from a first A time of only 3hrs directly to 5hrs could be terribly difficult. Instead I would move that nap gradually later so that it is more of a smooth transitional phase and when the 2-1 actually comes it is more logical to do so looking at the routine. Hope that makes sense.

With 4.5hrs first A time for instance:
WU7
A 4.5
S 11.30 - 1.30
A 3
S 4.30 - 5.00
A 3
BT 8pm
night 11hr
Hopefully you can see here that with the first A time being less than 5hrs it is very hard to get through the rest of the day without another nap.  He'd have to stay awake the 4.5hr before nap 1 and then stay awake for something like 5hrs after the nap with a 6.30pm BT which then relies on a 12.5hr night.  But also I think you can see it is possible to move towards that longer first A time and still fit a CN in the day. There are also options to cap nap 1 at 1.5hr or to reduce the CN to 20 or 10 mins depending on nap resistance or BT resistance.
Hope that makes sense.

[airam]

No, no, I didn't take it that way. I wanted to continue until two years but I'm struggling and will only continue until it's no longer necessary.

What I meant with the short A times is that since he is sleeping on me and getting my help to settle down, I am able to pull off such short A times (except for BT now). It's not ideal but just what happened.

N2 is for 1hr.

Everything you said makes sense and I'm very happy to see a sample routine. Thank you! I was really scared about the CN but your timings look like something that would work for my LO.

I need to get some things out of the way but I will start this EAS next week and report back.

Do you think I should start following this schedule while he's still sleeping on me to get him used to it or should I ST again and follow the schedule at the same time?

[creations]

I think as you had started to put him in the cot and sleep train now would be a good time to do that again.  Perhaps continue with the naps in arms for a day or so whilst you lengthen that first A, but I wouldn't linger on extending the A time or continuing the naps in arms, I do mean just a few days.  Moving from 3hr A time to 4.5 hr is a big jump, I'd suggest extending by 30 min day 1 (perhaps do this one in arms as it won't be long enough for a good settle) and another 30 min day 2 (perhaps get this one in the cot as it would now be 4hr but maybe stay there to help him as needed with a hand on or shush/pat).  Then I'd probably give him a few days on 4hrs before increasing again. When you increase further do it in 15 mins rather than 30.
It might go something like this:
day 1 in arms 3hr 30 A time
day 2 in cot 4hr A time, but help him as needed
day 3 as day 2
day 4 as day 2
day 5 in cot 4hr 15min A time, help as needed, should start to get easier
day 6 in cot 4hr 15
day 7 in cot 4hr 15 reassess now
day 8 possibly 4hr 30 if naps have not lengthened enough or if there is still nap resistance

Depending on how nap 1 goes you will need to judge for yourself each day what to do for nap 2.  Either a full 1hr nap or a 30min CN - base this on how long he slept for nap 1 and how long you need before BT.  You might like to continue nap 2 in arms for now whilst you get on track because it will be a bit easier to control that nap whilst the first nap is going to be a bit more unpredictable at this early stage.

Please do remember the sample routine is only a guide. It may work for you LO but something a little different might be more suitable.

hope this helps

[airam]

Sorry for the delay again. I didn't want to write until I started. I saw your last post on the same day and wanted to start the next day. He woke up with an extremely high fever again that night! After a couple of days he started getting better then we both got a bad cold. Two weeks later and    here we are...

So today I did everything you suggested for day 1. I made a mistake by putting him down after 3hrs for BT since maybe 3.5hrs would have been better... but even when crying he was yawning immediately when I put him down. So maybe it was enough A time?

He cried hard but I didn't know if it was a distressed cry. He hasn't cried to sleep for a long time since I went back to nursing to sleep. It seemed hard but after a while he would stop, then continue after a second. At one point he even babbled mamamamama. Mybe I should have let this go on? I was afraid it would be CIO.

I was nervous so I tried patting. He continued without missing a beat. Shhing. Nothing. Talking to him. Nothing. So I let him cry a bit more but got nervous it wasn't good for him. I even tried letting him hold my hand after putting a hand on his back didn't work (he would lift his butt and move side to side). I started singing familiar sings and he calmed down a bit but started after less than 10s. This went on and off. He crying was the kind where if you stop, you have to catch your breathe and stutter. Is that a distress cry?

I tried different songs until I found one he would stay quiet with. I think I do that more for me then him since I just cant handle continuous crying. I even found myself rocking myself as I sang while sitting next to the bed.

Anyway, it lasted for about 40mins.

WU 640
N1 1015
N2 315
BT 720

[creations]

If you feel he would calm down faster with a pick up you can do that, you can calm him in arms and put him down when calm and keep a hand on him, singing too if you like.  It does sound like he is crying hard (and if mine was I know I would need to pick up and cuddle but not all babies are the same so you judge this based on knowing your LO and knowing yourself) it is important to remember that whilst you are with him it is not CIO. He *knows* you are there this means he knows he is not in danger, he knows he has not been abandoned. It is very different when a child is left to cry alone, they do not know you will return, they do not know they are safe.
For you in particular (whether you choose to pick up because it helps him or not to because he doesn't like it) you might try some ear plugs, they will dull the sound but you will still hear him and you are still there with him, it can help to reduce the anxiety.  Or ear phones with some favourite or calming music for you, again it just dulls the sound it is not abandoning your child, you are still with him.  Parents do not need to join their baby in their upset, they need to support them - once I got my head around this I found I was able to find a touch of emotional distance, I was still there for my DS without getting upset.
Hope this helps - sounds like you are very caring and actually 40 mins is not as long as day 1 for many LOs.  Well done

[airam]

Thanks for your kind words. I hopeful things will get easier.

I dont know if I mentioned it, but I did a PU once when I felt it was hard crying. He just held me so I wouldn't put him back down but was moving around (not putting his head on my shoulder or anything)...as if he wanted to go back to the old way. I felt that he wouldn't calm down with me holding him so I PD'd and I think the crying got harder. I cant remember. That's when I started singing.

Anyway, Ive been through this rodeo before and know it's all about patience, consistency and not giving in.

I'll update with how things go with naps and BT today. Hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...lol

[airam]

Oh, I forgot. I meant that every time I leave him to cry a bit, I feel like it's bad for him since he doesn't know I'm there if Im not physically touching him or saying something.

[creations]

I think he is 13 or 14 months old now, yes?  I think he knows you are there, unless you are purposely hiding in which case I would make your presence clear.  if you are near his bed and have been talking or singing and have had a hand on him I think he knows you are there even if you stop singing. he can always open his eyes and see you - if he *needs* mummy he will certainly have a look for you.  I used to tell mine very clearly when I was leaving the room "I'm going now so you can sleep properly, call if you need me" even through the tricky phases when I had to stay until he was fully asleep, I felt he could hear me in his sleep and there would be no surprise when he woke and I wasn't there. I think Tracy used a similar phrase so that the LOs she trained knew the care-giver was leaving the room. No surprises.

The song is fine if it is helping.  You might find though that introducing a key phrase helps you both. For both of you it is a mantra like sound repeated and repeated which brings calm. It is supposed to be a single phrase "it's okay, go to sleep" kind of thing but I used several phrases which worked for us.  It can also be reduced if/when needed and is very useful to use from outside the room when LO is ready for verbal reassurance from a distance (not yet I don't think from the sounds of it).

I think you are likely to see less resistance and upset as this first A time increases so keep up the support and keep moving that nap later, we need to see it getting to 4hr+ really.

[airam]

I try o keep the room really dark so he doesn't see me..but youre right. if he wanted me, he could easily sit or stand up. Singing is helping but I really do want to just have a phrase and keep quiet as he settles himself. Maybe that's the goal...hes still crying so singing calms him. If I stop, he cries again. Can it become a prop?

Also hes waking u after 1hr-1.5hr from nap 1 still tired and falls asleep on me even if I'm talking to him, touching, tickling, joking with him etc. Poor guy wont even open his eyes since hes so tired. I try to stop him since I want him to learn to sleep at nap/bed time not on me. Am I right?

He did the same in the morning. he has this new habit now of waking up at around 5am and wanting to stay in my arms and resisting the bed.

Todays nap1 was only 1hr so I think I'm going to move u to 415 a time now. I think he can do it.

[creations]

Can you pop in around 55 min and see if he needs help to transition and stay asleep at the hour mark?  Sometimes that can help for a few days.

You should be able to reduce the singing, especially once he is sleeping a bit better.  Or maybe introduce a CD?
When mine was a baby I sang one song for WD.  If he was very agitated I repeated but if he was desperate to get into bed he would put his hand on my mouth to shut me up so I'd put him down!  At some point during a tricky phase (I think it was during the 1-0 nap drop) I had to do some major APOP, problem was my DS wouldn't be APed so it was very very hard.  Anyway, I would do singing and dancing with a CD on downstairs before taking him up and continuing upstairs with him almost asleep on me. Eventually this moved on to just putting the CD on upstairs in his room and leaving it to play to the end as he fell asleep in his bed.  If you are not involved it is not considered a prop.  Singing can be reduced and weaned like a key phrase I would think, a CD is just turned on and left.