SLEEP > General Sleep Issues
Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
becj86:
--- Quote from: annesmama on May 11, 2017, 16:23:22 pm --- After 1hr, she starts to get fussy when laying down - if I pick her up and play with her, read to her, walk around with her, etc, she'll be okay for another half hour or so. Whether her A time is 1hr or 1hr30, she cries when I lay her down to swaddle; she stops crying once I pick her up again.
--- End quote ---
All very normal with a spirited baby, I'm afraid. They just crave that stimulation.
I would give her another 10-15mins more A time and see how that goes.
What are you doing when she's treating BT as a nap? It can help to spend some of the first A time outside so she's getting some sun to help her body clock sort out day from night. It can also help to keep lights low and maybe just hold your hand on her and sing to her rather than getting her back up. That's pretty classic OT at BT which can happen just by having short naps all day. It sounds counterintuitive but pushing the A times in the day will help with the night.
annesmama:
OK, today we tried pushing A times to 1:40. On the plus side, she goes to sleep very quickly. On the minus side, she gets pretty fussy during wind down. Naps are still so-so:
WAKE 6:30am
E 6:30
E 7:00
S 8:00-9:00
E 9:25
E 10:30
S 10:40-11:40
E 11:55
S 1:20-2:20 (OMG NEW PROBLEM -- came in and she was ON HER TUMMY!! Re-settled by rocking...)
S 2:30-3:30 (But on the plus side, 2 hours total napping yay)
E 3:40
S 5:05-5:50 (45m)
E 5:50
E 7:00
S 7:30-8:15 (45m)
This is typical... we don't even do the bedtime routine before the 7pm nap any more.
Usually, she wakes up fussing. We first try to put a hand on her and shush, but usually that doesn't do anything. Then we'll try to hold and rock her on our bed next to the crib (it is sidecar'd, so it's not a huge move). If no go, I'll feed her. Generally after a feed she is in a good mood, smiley and trying to sit up. So we give up and try again after the next A time. On the plus side (knock wood), she's gone down for real sleep by 10pm for the past few days, which is a big improvement over midnight!
Today I didn't get a chance to take a walk for the first A time, but I did it a few days ago. I will try to do it more consistently.
I've ordered a couple of Zipadee-zips... she still startles and I don't think she'll be able to sleep without something swaddle-ish!
becj86:
--- Quote from: annesmama on May 12, 2017, 04:07:49 am ---On the plus side, she goes to sleep very quickly.
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That's a good sign you've got a more appropriate A time.
--- Quote from: annesmama on May 12, 2017, 04:07:49 am ---On the minus side, she gets pretty fussy during wind down
--- End quote ---
This can be for many reasons - some spirited babes just don't want to leave the action. Mine never did a winddown once I figured that out. Just put him straight down and he'd go to sleep.
Some babies don't do well with transitions - mine liked to pring something with him from one activity to another to help bridge the transition. As a result, he often took a spoon with him to bed/to the park, etc.
A lot of babies build associations very quickly - even just going to her bedroom when it has been a place she didn't like going to (when she wasn't tired) can still make her a bit fussy.
--- Quote from: annesmama on May 12, 2017, 04:07:49 am ---(OMG NEW PROBLEM -- came in and she was ON HER TUMMY!! Re-settled by rocking...)
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This is fine provided she got put down on her back and rolled herself. Definitely time to get her out of the swaddle though. FWIW, my son slept so much better once he could roll onto his tummy - he didn't wake himself with his reflexes any more :)
--- Quote from: annesmama on May 12, 2017, 04:07:49 am ---S 1:20-2:20 (OMG NEW PROBLEM -- came in and she was ON HER TUMMY!! Re-settled by rocking...)S 2:30-3:30 (But on the plus side, 2 hours total napping yay)
--- End quote ---
This suggests to me that a slight push to 1:45/1:50 may get her sleeping longer on her own. These 1hr naps suggest she is still UT but is getting through the 45min mark on her own which is great - means she can transition from one sleep cycle to the next independently. This 2hr nap albeit with resettling is a good sign she will nap longer given the right routine. She's done that off the back of 2 short naps and 2 reasonable A times. You could stick with 1:40 for another day or two and see if her naps lengthen further if you want to. I'd probably hedge my bets and go to 1:45/1:50 and stick there for a few days because chances are that's where she'll be for the next week or two then increase again. Tweaking a routine and increasing A time gradually every couple of weeks as required will make this whole process much easier :) That way you mirror her gradual development with a gradual change in routine rather than trying to do it stepwise which gives her more to adjust to in one go.
It sounds like she really associates feeds with time to get up - that's great in some respects - she's got that bit of predictability down pat, makes feeding to sleep more tricky though!
Pushing that first A time may help with getting her to sleep earlier in the evening. You can try bringing BT earlier by 30mins every few days if you want to.
What's the BT routine? Does it help her settle or is it as per recommendation somewhere? Sometimes a WD/BT routine can hinder efforts to get a child to sleep. For instance, I read books to DS before bed because of those recommendations. He was so excited and overstimulated by books that it was completely counterproductive and actually, we had to change to singing for BT WD. We still read books - just straight after feeds rather than just before sleep.
annesmama:
THANK YOU! Things are definitely improving. We got one long nap yesterday and shush-pat has actually worked -- TWICE!
--- Quote (selected) ---FWIW, my son slept so much better once he could roll onto his tummy - he didn't wake himself with his reflexes any more :)
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Haha... I hope she learns that soon! Right now she sometimes stays on her back and sometimes rolls to her side. Then she often tries to go for her tummy, but if she makes it, she wakes herself up and starts fussing. She doesn't seem to realize she can just lay her head down and go to sleep :)
--- Quote (selected) ---A lot of babies build associations very quickly - even just going to her bedroom when it has been a place she didn't like going to (when she wasn't tired) can still make her a bit fussy.
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Yes, I suspect it's a combination of this, and just adjusting to the new A time. If you had told me a week ago that she could do 1:50 A times, I wouldn't have believed you based on how fussy she got at 1hr. But she can!
--- Quote (selected) ---Tweaking a routine and increasing A time gradually every couple of weeks as required will make this whole process much easier :) That way you mirror her gradual development with a gradual change in routine rather than trying to do it stepwise which gives her more to adjust to in one go.
--- End quote ---
Makes sense! Definitely planning to do that going forward.
--- Quote (selected) ---What's the BT routine? Does it help her settle or is it as per recommendation somewhere?
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BT routine is pretty short, just based on what various books suggest:
1. Quiet play in crib
2. Read books
3. Go potty
4. Change into overnight diaper and PJs
5. Swaddle
6. Turn on white noise and turn down lights
6. Bounce/rock/sing until asleep
It usually takes a long time to get her to sleep, unlike the naps :\ And she doesn't settle as well -- at naps, she handles a little jostling when being put down and either goes back to sleep herself or responds to shush-pat. Maybe we need to cut the books? Or maybe once we get her naps sorted out, BT will sort out too?
Here was yesterday's EASY!
WAKE & E 7:00 (A=1h30m)
S 8:30-9:15 (S=45m)
E 9:15 (A=1h45m)
S 11:00-11:45 (S=45m)
E 12:15 (A=1h45m)
E 1:00 (snack)
S 1:30-2:50 (S=1h20m !!!!!)
E 2:50 (A=1h40m)
S 4:30-5:10 (S=40m shush-pat worked!!)
E 5:20 (A=1h50m)
E 6:10
A Did bedtime routine
S 7:10-7:45 (S=35m *sadface*)
E 7:45 (A=2h15m)
A quiet play in crib
SLEEP 10:00 (started trying at 9:30, which would have been A=1h45m)
Today has been going well, even with an outing messing things up!!
WAKE & E 6:45 (A=1h50m)
S 8:35-9:50 (S=1h15m -- she would have slept longer but we had to go out! Tried to transfer to carseat, but she woke up)
E 10:15 (A=1h50m)
S 11:40-11:55/12:15-12:20/12:25-1:15 (S=15m, 5m, 50m -- fell asleep in carseat, woke when transferred, woke at jolts, held her until deep sleep for last one)
Here's hoping we get a good afternoon nap in!
annesmama:
Siigh, spoke too soon. The rest of the day wasn't as great. Maybe cutting short the first nap threw everything off.
WAKE & E 6:45
S 8:35-9:50
A=1:50
S=1:15 -- she would have slept longer but we had to go out! Tried to transfer to carseat, but she woke up
E 10:15
S 11:40-11:55 / 12:15-12:20 / 12:25-1:15
A=1:50
S=15m, 5m, 50m -- fell asleep in carseat, woke when transferred, resettled but woke at jolts, resettled and held her until deep sleep for last one
E 1:30
S 2:50-3:40 / 4:00-4:20
A=1:35 - We wanted a longer A time, but she fell asleep while Dad took her for a walk
S=50m, 20m - Tried to resettle, but she wouldn't let me put her back down so I held her for the second bit. Then she woke up happy.
E 4:30
S 5:45-6:30
A=1:25 - Again, wanted a longer A time, but she just got suuuuper cranky
S=45m
E 6:30
S 7:45-???
A=1:15
I expect this to be a nap, but hopefully she'll go down for real bedtime at 9:30. What does it mean when the wake times go down like this? Maybe A=1:50 was pushing it too far? How do you recover from a short nap without throwing off the entire day?
Also, shush-pat has started working for me when first putting her down for a nap, but when she wakes up at :45 or :50, it doesn't work at all. In fact, not much does - I hold her, rock her, bounce her, but sometimes she doesn't settle at all, or only fitfully until the next E. Sometimes it seems like it would be better to just take her out and start the next EASY early. Obviously if she wakes up without even getting in a full sleep cycle, I would try to resettle her, but is it different for long-but-not-long-enough naps? She's often happy as soon as she's fed. Does that mean she's waking hungry? And if so, is it bad to make her wait?
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