Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?

[becj86]

Perhaps rather than moving straight from bouncing to shush/pat in the crib is to incorporate shushing into slightly less bouncing, then sit on the ball holding her without bouncing and perhaps start patting her back then keep removing the bouncing in smaller steps.

[annesmama]

Yes- that's a good plan. We're doing shushing while bouncing now, so hopefully we can move through those phases without too much delay. I'm trying to focus on the positives: last night was the best ever! Asleep by 9:20pm, only 2 night wakings + DF, and she slept almost 11 hours!  I woke up feeling rested.  Thank you again for all your help - we've made so much progress

[annesmama]

What does it mean if she's waking 35 minutes into a nap?  Yesterday and today she did it in the morning.  Both were after 1:50 A time, so I wouldn't expect her to be OT... she's done great long naps on even longer A times before.  Is it possible for A time to *shorten*?

[becj86]

Ugh, 35min is tricky - can be OT/UT, more often UT and can also be overstimulation.

Is it possible for A time to *shorten*?

Yes. Around 9 months is notorious for people worrying their baby is the only one suddenly refusing to have a second nap then in a couple of weeks, A times go back down and kiddo sleeps two naps again. Its mostly when a baby is working on a new task / going through a leap (https://www.thewonderweeks.com/the-mental-leaps-and-wonder-weeks/) that A times get much longer then once the leap is done they'll get that bit shorter again.

[annesmama]

Hm, ok, I'll keep an eye on those 35m naps. We didn't have any today.

Tonight we were having some trouble getting her to sleep, so I put an arms-only swaddle on.  Lo and behold, shush-pat works again.  Does shush-pat only work with a swaddle??  =\  But it's supposed to teach independent sleep without a swaddle too, right?  If we use a swaddle, we have to take it off once she's asleep because she rolls.

[becj86]

Sometimes the swaddle becomes a sleep cue - totally reasonable to use it as one then take it off when she's asleep. The whole-body pressure of it can help calm LO down - there's a technique used for kids who are having sensory issues in which they are wrapped in a piece of fabric or a carpet that helps them calm their senses.

Does shush-pat only work with a swaddle?? 

Nope, still use it sometimes with my 6yo Having said that though, he sometimes asks to be swaddled too...

Arms are pretty interesting things when you're 4 months old. Having them out and even just being able to move them about can definitely be distracting to the falling asleep process.

[annesmama]

Hmm okay. Right now we wait 20 minutes before we take the swaddle off, which is fine at bedtime but kind of a drag to do for each 45-minute nap =\  I guess I will experiment with taking it off as soon as she's relaxed enough.  Sigh.  I guess if I had read BW earlier and started working on independent sleep right away, maybe she would have learned it before the rolling.  Next kid...

I think she must be going through something, because last night she slept for almost 12 hours (longest ever) and her A times today have been super short (1:25 and 1:15).

[becj86]

I guess if I had read BW earlier and started working on independent sleep right away, maybe she would have learned it before the rolling. 

It may or may not have helped. Teaching independent sleep is a process and those first few months are different with every child.

You might find she settles better for naps once she's had a few good long nights. The better day sleep tends to make nights better then the days improve further again.

You've learned heaps - love that you can observe she's slept a lot more and see she must be going through something - she may be ill or working her way out of some OT or something. Great that you've followed her lead and observed - that capacity stands you in great stead for the next years

[annesmama]

Funny how they grow so fast but sleep training is so slow

Today we went on a walk in the morning. She was supposed to fall asleep in the carrier but she didn't, so she ended up staying awake almost 5 hours with only a short catnap while walking (!)  I was worried what this'd do to the rest of her day, but she ended up sleeping 1h-resettle-1h soon after we got home, and she did another 1h in the afternoon. But there's no way she was UT for that first nap...! Why the 1h? A mystery... Maybe UT because of the catnap layered over OT?

Tried to get her to do an 8pm BT but she woke up after half an hour and didn't go to sleep again until 10pm. I think I timed it wrong: she woke from a nap at 5pm, so I figured we would start the BT process at 7pm and hopefully finish by 8pm. Which we did, but she didn't stay down, so maybe she was OT and I should have planned on an extra nap?  But I think if she napped at 6:30-7:00, she wouldn't be tired at 8pm. What should I have done?  (She woke up at 7:30am this morning but we're aiming for an 8-8 schedule.)

On the plus side, she went to sleep with shush-pat!  I had to swaddle her arms *and* hold her legs to get it to work.  Question: I was hoping that getting her to fall asleep with shush-pat would help her transition sleep stages better and stop waking up at 45m or 1h, but since she requires the swaddling/holding, how can it? She won't be swaddled at the transitions.

[becj86]

Question: I was hoping that getting her to fall asleep with shush-pat would help her transition sleep stages better and stop waking up at 45m or 1h, but since she requires the swaddling/holding, how can it? She won't be swaddled at the transitions.

Hopefully she'll be a little more drowsy? Otherwise maybe hold through the jolts would suit her better?

I'd probably have done a 7:30 BT - nothing wrong with that really.

Not sure on that 1hr waking. Could be so many things :-/ Hard to know when there's not a pattern to it (not that's I'd suggest many 5hr A times just to get a pattern!!).

[annesmama]

Hopefully she'll be a little more drowsy? Otherwise maybe hold through the jolts would suit her better?

OK, check me on my nap extension technique, cause I feel like I must be doing something wrong.

OCCASIONALLY, she wakes up at the 45 minute mark with her eyes still closed, making unhappy noises.  In these cases, I can usually shush-pat and she'll go back to sleep.  I usually keep shush-patting for a good 10-20 minutes, not sure if it's necessary but better safe than sorry.

However, more often, she wakes up at the 45 minute mark with her eyes OPEN.  It's quite sudden.  One minute she's still and sleeping, then she stirs slightly, then eyes open and quite alert - not really any jolting to hold.  It's different from when she was a newborn and would sort of wake up very slowly, dozing off and on.  Anyway, when she wakes up AWAKE like this, shush-patting does nothing, BUT if I pick her up and rock or bounce her, she goes back to sleep.  However, most of the time she won't STAY asleep, even if I keep shush-patting or rocking/bouncing.  I'm willing to keep doing it until she gets to deep sleep, but she just... won't.  She wakes up.  What does this mean?  Since she *does* fall asleep, it seems like she might want more sleep.  But she won't stay asleep, so is she just not tired enough?

TODAY was an interesting case. Her first two naps were only 40 minutes each.  Her third nap, though...

She woke at 45m as usual, eyes open; I tried and failed to get her to sleep again.  Gave up and figured we'd start our next EAS, so I took her potty and fed her.  But then she still seemed kinda cranky so I figured I'd try to put her down again... and she went!  I did hold her into deep sleep.  So then I decided to take a nap too.  She (and I) woke up after about an hour of this second nap segment.  I decided NOT to extend this one, since I didn't want to steal from night sleep, but she fell asleep on E and would not wake up even when I took her out of her sleep sack and put her down not-so-gently.  She slept another 50 minutes.

With these slightly-over-45 minute segments... the extra time really isn't doing much for her, right?  I assume it's light sleep and not very restorative.  So even though her total time was >3 hours, she really only had 3 cycles in there, I think.  But are consecutive sleep cycles different from ones with breaks in between?

We put her down at 7:45 for BT but she woke up after 40 minutes.  SIGH.  I think she just will not do a 12 hour day.  She does get *tired* at the 12h... it's just always a nap.  We're not doing anything super exciting/overstimulating in the evenings, I don't think... just sort of rolling around on the play mat and slobbering on things.  I don't understand why she won't SLEEP until so late =\

[becj86]

Nah, not doing anything wrong, Babies just are different and yours happens to wake like she does. Can't do much about that.

However, more often, she wakes up at the 45 minute mark with her eyes OPEN.  It's quite sudden.  One minute she's still and sleeping, then she stirs slightly, then eyes open and quite alert - not really any jolting to hold.  It's different from when she was a newborn and would sort of wake up very slowly, dozing off and on.  Anyway, when she wakes up AWAKE like this, shush-patting does nothing, BUT if I pick her up and rock or bounce her, she goes back to sleep.  However, most of the time she won't STAY asleep, even if I keep shush-patting or rocking/bouncing.  I'm willing to keep doing it until she gets to deep sleep, but she just... won't.  She wakes up.  What does this mean?  Since she *does* fall asleep, it seems like she might want more sleep.  But she won't stay asleep, so is she just not tired enough?

Yep, UT. I just cut my losses with those.

But are consecutive sleep cycles different from ones with breaks in between?

Yes, they are slightly less restorative.

I don't understand why she won't SLEEP until so late =\

I suspect because she's used to getting back up again. If she were to only need an 11hr night and she's getting up for the day at 8 or 9am though, a 9 or 10om BT is actually reasonable. If you want a 7am BT, you have to be ok with a 6am WU for the day.

But then she still seemed kinda cranky so I figured I'd try to put her down again... and she went!  I did hold her into deep sleep.  So then I decided to take a nap too.  She (and I) woke up after about an hour of this second nap segment.  I decided NOT to extend this one, since I didn't want to steal from night sleep, but she fell asleep on E and would not wake up even when I took her out of her sleep sack and put her down not-so-gently.  She slept another 50 minutes.

So this was good - you noticed that she wasn't doing so well and needed more sleep and gave it to her.
Overstimulation can be as simple as Dad coming home in the 2hr before BT, its really doesn't have to seem exciting to us

[annesmama]

If she were to only need an 11hr night and she's getting up for the day at 8 or 9am though, a 9 or 10om BT is actually reasonable. If you want a 7am BT, you have to be ok with a 6am WU for the day.

I have a question about where to count WU, actually. For the past several days, she's been waking up at 7-7:30am, no matter when we put her to sleep.  I'm suspecting this is her natural WU time.  BUT before she opens her eyes properly for the day, she usually wakes up for a feeding at 6:30-7:00.  She seems to go back to sleep at the feeding, but she often moves around and then wakes up soon after, so... does that time count as sleep?  Or should I count her day as starting at the feeding?  For example, even though she didn't go to sleep until 10pm last night, today she woke up and I fed her at 6:30am. She went back to sleep and then opened her eyes at 7am.  She went down for her first nap at 8:45 with NO BOUNCING!  So was that A=2:15 (from the 6:30 feed) or A=1:45 (from the 7:00 eyes open)?

[becj86]

I'd count A time from 7 in that case, I think.

Sounds like she is starting to tell you 7/7:30 is her WU time so I'd make BT 8 and just not do lights or interaction thereafter. Fine to feed, change nappy, shush/pat or sing or whatever but just not playing and no lights. That makes it more obvious to her that its night time but you will probably have to be consistent with that for up to 1-2 weeks before it sinks in.

[annesmama]

We've got three trips in the next three weeks, one involving a time change, so I expect everything to go kaput, but...

Yesterday was a mess but today has been going well!  I was able to extend her first two naps with the following procedure:

- Go in at 40m and put my arm on her (she sleeps on her side)
- Nothing much happens for 10-15 minutes... she stirs very slightly sometimes, opens her eyes and shuts them again
- Around 55m she moves a lot - tries to roll onto her back, arches her back and curls it. I keep my hands on her to keep her on her side and keep her limbs from flailing but otherwise let her move -- it seems to upset her if I try to keep her totally still.  She cries a little and I pat her back.  She settles back down.
- I keep patting for 5 minutes and gradually taper off to just having my hands on her like the beginning.  Around 1h05m I gently lift my hands.  The whole operation is silent, except maybe a little bit of shushing when she cries.

Is this Hold Through The Jolts? I thought a "jolt" would be more like her startle reflex, not just regular rolling around...?

Since it happens at 55m, that's actually 10m into the *second* cycle, not the cycle transition, right?

I watched after her second nap cycle to see what happened when I didn't do anything... at 1h40m (which would be 10m into the third cycle?), she started the movement again. This time, without me holding her, she rolled onto her back and to her side, back and forth a few times, stretched out her arms, and woke up happy.

Interestingly, both of these long naps have been on short A times (1:10 and 1:25).  That's below average for her age, and she used to stay up to 2h without too much trouble!  No idea what's going on, but she was getting awfully cranky and she has a new lovely high-pitched screeching she's just learned to do.  I didn't think it wise to try to push her A time further.  As long as she's doing the 2-cycle nap, the short A times are OK, right?

One other question: why do the 4s's require *sitting* *quietly*?  I've been doing non-bouncing things to relax her for naps, but I always sing, usually sway at least a little, and sometimes stand.  I guess maybe she starts to fall asleep in-arms if I don't keep still?  But if I keep still, she fusses and doesn't seem to relax.

EDIT: Tried to do the same thing on her third nap but... nothing happened.  I mean, she just slept, didn't try to roll around or anything.  Interesting...?