Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?

[annesmama]

Sigh maybe this is the 4mo regression. Got her down at bt at 8:30 last night - wasn't even difficult. But she woke at 9:10 and we couldn't get her down until almost midnight. Every time we bounced her to sleep she'd wake up on transfer or a few minutes later. Tried shushing patting rubbing, everything. In the crib sometimes she'd be happy. She rolled a lot and did this thing where she uses one leg to slide herself across the crib - then she gets stuck and cries.

Today morning I woke her at 8:30.  She is doing a lot worse at transfers these days. It used to be if we bounced her to drowsy, eyes closing, we could put her down and she'd settle. But now she screams when put down. She's 4.5 months old.   

[becj86]

Yeah, there's a mental leap at 18-20 weeks which could be part of it, new skills can put a spanner in the works and maybe its the regression.

Hugs xx

[annesmama]

Trying to just accept that it's probably gonna take some time before her sleep settles down.  Working on trying to observe her tired cues better so I don't miss them.

Yesterday her first nap was 1h40m with no intervention!  Hooray!  Other two naps were short (45m, 40m).

Last night was not great, but at least better. At her BT feed (8pm), I gave her a pep talk that we were NOT going to eat every time she woke up tonight -- max every 3h.  She faked us out by going to sleep at ~9pm but waking up 20-30minutes later.  Just held her quietly or walked around the dark house until she got tired again.  I think she wanted to nurse to sleep after some time, but I told her we had already discussed this.  I was planning to hold out until 11pm, but figured 10:45 was close enough, and she went to sleep (bouncing) easily after.  I was a little worried about what I'd do if she woke up before 3h, but what do you know - she woke up precisely every 3h... haha.  So only twice.  Not so bad.  Still think I need to stretch it longer, because she's not that hungry when she wakes up.

[ellieelmo]

I don't have any advice to offer but just wanted to say, I've been following your thread since the beginning even though it's really hard I totally appreciate your sharing everything you're going through because it is helping me work through the similar things. I'm a FTM too and my dd is I think, a week or so younger than yours. Also spirited. Although no two babies are the same, I really to empathise with you.

Sigh maybe this is the 4mo regression. Got her down at bt at 8:30 last night - wasn't even difficult. But she woke at 9:10 and we couldn't get her down until almost midnight. Every time we bounced her to sleep she'd wake up on transfer or a few minutes later.

This was me last night almost to the minute D: I know that doesn't help you at all but I just wanted to say thank you for your sharing and of course to becj86! I'm keeping everything crossed that we'll both get through the 4mths ok.

Working on trying to observe her tired cues better so I don't miss them.

I know you said ages ago on my thread that yawning was not a reliable sleepy cue - you were right! But just thought I'd say that I think you wrote a few posts ago that dd had started a new high pitched shriek? For my dd this is a (new) sign that she's really ready for sleep. Tonight she was beyond hyper in the bath, despite only being up for 45mins, and doing that lovely shriek so we only read one book and it was still tougher than normal to get her down to sleep.

[annesmama]

Thanks ellieelmo! Been following your thread too! I'm so jelly of your 7 hour night stretch. But last night we had a 5 hour stretch! I woke up full of milk and it's been ages since that happened. On the minus side, we are two time zones over and it was from 1am to 6am. Couldn't get her to sleep earlier.

You know, the funny thing is she's stopped doing the shriek. Everything keeps changing. She used to calm down if I held her flailing limbs and now she haaates it.
 

[ellieelmo]

I woke up full of milk and it's been ages since that happened.

ha! I know what you mean - it's both wonderful (because they've slept a good stretch) and uncomfortable! Good good luck - we've just had a rough few days, the constant changing is just SO tricky.

[annesmama]

Finally back from travel!!!! Everything is totally messed up. We couldn't get ANY long naps. Lots of super short ones in the car where she wouldn't go back to sleep afterward. We got a nap in the stroller and in there wrap too. And got her to sleep rocking in arms without using yoga ball a few times. Absolutely no success with shush pat anywhere. Nursed to sleep all night - that 5 hour stretch was a fluke, sigh. Lots of suckling on my finger too, in car seat, plane, when overtired after too-long-and-stimulating visits with doting friends and relatives...

I want to get back to normal but I have no idea HOW with shush pat not working... transfers to crib are still touch and go. She cries when put down and will stop if I let her suck on my finger but I really don't want to make THAT a habit.

[becj86]

Give her a few days at home, things often come right on their own but if not, APOP naps at reasonable A times then gradually withdraw your assistance as you have done in the past. It shouldn't take as long this time as previously because she's got the skills there, they're just a bit rusty.

[annesmama]

Tonight: we tried all sorts of APOPing -- bouncing to sleep, holding forEVER, nursing to sleep -- all worked to get her to sleep and all failed transfer to crib. D:

In the crib, she hated shush, she hated pat, she hated foot rubs, foot squeezes, lullabies, BUT THEN...

I put both hands on her chest and spoke softly to her whenever she took a breath between cries ("Good night, sweet Anne", "Good night, sweetheart", "Have a good sleep, sweetie", "You're just going to sleep, you can do it", repeat, repeat) ... and she gradually tapered off and went to sleep.  It was slower than shush-pat used to be, but at least she didn't have to suckle to sleep!  Maybe this is the new shush-pat?  I seem to recall something about older babies finding the shh too stimulating?  Well, one time could be just a coincidence.  We'll see if it works again.

EDIT: Worked for 2 night wakings (was 3-4h since last feed, so didn't try for the other two) and for first nap today! No bouncing at all. Wow, never would have imagined it.

[becj86]

Awesome to have found something thats works for you and her

[annesmama]

Update: two days ago was perhaps the most perfect day we've ever had.  Two long naps (1h30m), one short (45m), 8pm BT -- all without bouncing!  Night was reasonable too -- feeds at 11pm and 4am, restless in the a.m. until WU at 7am but didn't require nursing.

Yesterday was not as good -- not sure if that's because she made big progress toward crawling in the evening (got on her hands and knees and sort of wobbled forward) or because I had caffeine.  But not TERRIBLE: 9pm BT required bouncing but only 3 NFs (10pm, 1am, 4am) and no wakings other than those.  Turning up the white noise (or running a vacuum cleaner) seems to help.

Thank you for helping thru this whole journey, becj86!

[becj86]

Yay! I love it when people have good days Happy to help, just remember to keep adding to that A time gradually with average A times in mind so you don't get too stuck. Constant tweaking rather than infrequent big changes makes life much easier with a baby.

[annesmama]

I know it's always going to go back and forth but... BT has not been good.  It really feels like the BT feed wakes her up. She'll be showing all the tired signs - cranky, yawning, burrowing head - but then after her feed, she gets this weird second wind where she's alternating happy and crying. She won't go to sleep even with APOP. Can't leave her in her crib to play because she just rolls into her tummy and starts crying. We basically just have to wait it out and she gets OT.  Is a BT feed necessary? Is it supposed to be immediately before putting down for sleep? I'm wondering if it'd be better to omit and do a dream feed an hour after she's gone to sleep, say.

[becj86]

What's your EASY? If you've fed within 1-2hr of BT, no need to do a BT feed if its just causing issues. The idea is to fill her right up so you get a long stretch but if its not working for you and her then find something that does. Totally reasonable to try a DF 3-4hr after she goes to sleep (1hr after will likely disrupt her sleep). I'd probably see how she goes without a BT feed or a DF for a week or so first then try DF if you're getting too many NFs.

[annesmama]

Here was the day where I felt like the BT feed messed things up:

WU 8:00
E 8:15
S 9:50-11:30 (! long nap! woohoo!)

E 11:40
S 1:45-2:35 (could be worse...)

E 2:40
S 4:30-5:30 (this one never goes long anyway)

E 5:40
E 7:30
S 9:10 (7:30 was supposed to be the BT feed but it was Not Happening)

Yesterday, I tried omitting the BT feed -- she woke up from her last nap at 5:15, took her last feed at 6:10, and she closed her eyes for BT at 8:00.  I had to rock her to sleep, but she wasn't able to put herself to sleep and I didn't want to stretch the last A further.  Unfortunately, she woke up at 8:35.  So maybe I should have let her stay awake longer?  Or maybe she was OT because it had been a day of short naps?  Anyway, I fed her without thinking... and then she was up till 10:30.

We'll give it a go again tonight, and not feed her if she wakes up early... Also will try harder to extend A times.  They were short yesterday, but she kept falling asleep before I put her in her crib!  For second nap, she fell asleep while I was putting her in her sleep sack.  Third she fell asleep in the sling (to be fair, I was vacuuming).

EDIT: I noticed the "perfect day" was right after getting home from a week of travel.  Maybe she was just more properly tired??

EDIT2:

Also... these NFs are really starting to wear on me. I'd be happy doing two -- say, 11pm and 4am -- but doing three (i.e. 10pm, 1am, 4am) or four (i.e. 11pm, 1am, 3am, 6am) leaves me really tired during the day.  It's not the feeding that's the problem -- she takes a quick feed and goes right back to sleep.
 It's the interrupted sleep.  I used to need 8-9hrs a night. 

Would delaying a feed when she wakes up help or hurt?  i.e. last night she woke at 2, I bounced/rocked/held/let her use my finger as a paci until 3am and then I fed her.  She was sort of sleeping for that hour, but very lightly -- if I stopped doing whatever, she started crying again.  It was sooo tiring, but if it would help after a few nights, I'll do it.  I don't know if she's really hungry or not, but feeding is the only thing that gets her to stay asleep.  She next woke at 6am and I was too tired to try to hold her off till 7am -- I fed her.