Author Topic: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?  (Read 16819 times)

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Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #90 on: July 06, 2017, 20:52:23 pm »
Yesterday, I tried omitting the BT feed -- she woke up from her last nap at 5:15, took her last feed at 6:10, and she closed her eyes for BT at 8:00.  I had to rock her to sleep, but she wasn't able to put herself to sleep and I didn't want to stretch the last A further.  Unfortunately, she woke up at 8:35.  So maybe I should have let her stay awake longer?  Or maybe she was OT because it had been a day of short naps?  Anyway, I fed her without thinking... and then she was up till 10:30.
Ok, so 2:45 A time off a catnap is too much in all likelihood and so you're getting OT waking in the early hours of the night.

S 4:30-5:30 (this one never goes long anyway)E 5:40E 7:30S 9:10 (7:30 was supposed to be the BT feed but it was Not Happening)
Even this - I'd be trying to have her asleep at 7:30 latest rather than feeding at 7:30. She's probably OT by then.

How old is she now? I think she needs more in the way of A time again.

S 1:45-2:35 (could be worse...)
Yes, but is UT.

Would delaying a feed when she wakes up help or hurt?  i.e. last night she woke at 2, I bounced/rocked/held/let her use my finger as a paci until 3am and then I fed her.  She was sort of sleeping for that hour, but very lightly -- if I stopped doing whatever, she started crying again.  It was sooo tiring, but if it would help after a few nights, I'll do it.  I don't know if she's really hungry or not, but feeding is the only thing that gets her to stay asleep.  She next woke at 6am and I was too tired to try to hold her off till 7am -- I fed her. 
It can help but often doesn't. Its more that she's awake and knows she feeds when she wakes at night than that she is waking hungry (with those 4 NF nights at least, not the 2NF ones - those are normal). Best for you to feed and get her and you back to sleep asap and work on increasing those A times, especially the first one.

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #91 on: July 07, 2017, 01:45:21 am »
She'll be 5 mos on Saturday. I keep trying to extend her A time but she keeps falling asleep early on me.

Today our first nap was long (yay!), second required minimal bouncing to extend a second cycle (a touch UT), and third required bouncing to sleep and was short. The last A time after third nap -- it's like she just doesn't show tired signs...? Is that a thing? For her first nap, say, she'll start showing tired signs and when I put her down, she just goes straight to sleep by herself.  Same for second nap, but she sometimes takes a bit longer to fall asleep. Sometimes I pull out the handheld vacuum and that does it.  Third nap, I'll often need to bounce her -- even though it's been a long A time and she's clearly tired, she just won't settle without help. Is this pattern typical, even with long naps? What does it mean?

And then BT... Are BT tired signs different?  I'm trying to wait for her to be properly tired, because otherwise she just gets mad when I try to put her to sleep. Generally for naps, I pop her in the sling when she gets too cranky to play and just walk around the house doing stuff. I vacuum if A time is dragging long. When she starts yawning / rubbing her eyes / nodding off, I whisk her off to bed.  This is not working at BT because she never gets sleepy...

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #92 on: July 07, 2017, 08:43:58 am »
it's like she just doesn't show tired signs...? Is that a thing?
Yes, often with overstimulation. For us, it was DH coming home that really unravelled things. DS was just so excited to have daddy home. For other, its just witching hour (which is usually more than one hour) and things won't go to plan.


Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #93 on: July 07, 2017, 16:28:42 pm »
Ah... yes... Daddy typically comes home during or right after the last nap.  Plus, we need to eat dinner.  What did you do to work around that?

Yesterday, she woke up from her third nap at 6:15, and DH came home then too.  Fed at 6:45.  She got cranky around 7:15 so we put her in PJs and tried to put her to sleep (APOPing) but she just Would Not Go.  As soon as we stopped APOPing she was happy again.  Tried again every 20 minutes or so, and each time she got upset when we started APOPing and happy as soon as we stopped.  It's tough because the whole time, we can't put her down on her play mat -- if we do, she INSISTS on trying to crawl and getting super worked up and unhappy because she can't.  So we alternate holding her.  Finally at 8:30 I was able to rock her to sleep in the wrap.  She woke up as soon as I got her out and was super mad, so I bounced her down again and held her for 20 minutes.  She did one cycle and woke up at 9:30, could not APOP her back down, so DH took her in the Ergo.  I think it was about an hour before she would go to sleep again.

On the plus side, we've had several days in a row now where the first A time was ~1:50-2:00 and she went right to sleep for first nap when put down!  Sometimes requires a bit of holding until she's relaxed/drowsy enough, but no bouncing.  Huge progress for us!  So even though things are falling apart at BT and third nap, I'm trying to focus on how much things have improved :)  Although I would love another one of those perfect "nearly-independent sleep" days soon ;)

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #94 on: July 08, 2017, 08:01:56 am »
What did you do to work around that?
Lots of play with daddy and lots of tight hugs. You could try time in the ergo with Daddy when he gets home - maybe for a 15-30 min walk while you finish off/make dinner in peace... Reasonably firm massage as part of the BT routine helped too. I'd go for a 1:30-1:45 A time for the last one. I know daddy probably loves to get DD really happy and excited when he gets home but that's counterproductive. See what you can work out as a routine that works for you as a family :)


Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #95 on: July 08, 2017, 18:18:51 pm »
Haha of course after I post, we have a bad morning. My own fault though. I let her sleep in cause of how late the night was, then we were out at a garage sale and the farmers market. Probably overstimulated. By the time she showed tired signs it was too late.

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #96 on: July 12, 2017, 02:25:45 am »
Update: shush pat still gone, but independent sleep is making a visit again!  First two naps today, I put her down and while I was putting on her sleep sack, she relaxed and started sucking her hands. So I slid her over to her crib and she went right off to sleep within 5 minutes. Score! But both naps were short! Why? I thought if she was sleeping independently, we must be on target with A time? I can't figure out a pattern for short/long naps... it just seems like a coin flip. And when we have all short naps, BT gets tricky - usually requires fourth nap, but then she doesn't sleep properly until late.  Here was today's EASY. What to do with all short naps like this?

WU 7:55
E 8:00
S 10:05-10:40 (independent sleep)

E 11:05
S 12:40-1:30 (independent sleep)

E 1:30 (small)
E 2:50 (went out, lots of people, had meltdown, maybe earlier feed wasn't enough)
S 3:15-4:15 (fell asleep in car, transferred to crib without waking)

E 4:50
S 6:35-?

Here we are... I'm expecting this to be a nap and real BT around 9pm.  But it's already 7:25 and she hasn't woken...  I wonder if she's actually gone to sleep-sleep? Or should I wake her to avoid real BT going too late?

EDIT of course she woke up right after I posted. See next post :)
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 04:57:37 am by annesmama »

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #97 on: July 12, 2017, 04:41:37 am »
I thought if she was sleeping independently, we must be on target with A time?
Not necessarily. I think she's probably a short-WD kiddo, she's probably telling you that by going to sleep with the first couple of cues you give her that its nap time. She's learning what the process is that leads to sleep and doesn't need as much help getting to sleep but maybe just try starting that WD process 5min later that you have been and see if that helps with nap length. Definitely the A times you're posting here are shorter than average for her age.

Here we are... I'm expecting this to be a nap and real BT around 9pm.  But it's already 7:25 and she hasn't woken...  I wonder if she's actually gone to sleep-sleep? Or should I wake her to avoid real BT going too late?
I'd leave her to sleep. It may backfire but you may find she sleeps much better.

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #98 on: July 12, 2017, 04:59:20 am »
Ended up being a long(?) catnap:

S 6:35-7:30

Started BT routine right away
E 8:00 (part of BT routine)
E 8:45 (routine finished but not sleepy... maybe still hungry?)
E 9:05 (i give up... try nursing to sleep... didn't work)
S 9:30 (it required bouncing followed by HTTJ)

BT routine is:
20 mins walk outside
Take a bath
Change into pjs
Feed
Read a couple bedtime books
Hold in wrap and tidy up the bedroom
Lay on bed and chat softly about our day and how it is bedtime now

We are gonna cut the bath though cause it seems to agitate her. Been watching infant massage videos...

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #99 on: July 13, 2017, 03:09:10 am »
Today was all short naps again :(  These days are brutal.

I don't understand how to extend her A time... I was already keeping her awake as long as she'd stand it.  If I push it longer, she just cries for the extra minutes and then she won't self-settle when I start the nap routine... I end up having to bounce or grab her arms and hold them till she starts sucking her thumb, which is kinda hard while she's flailing.  And then she sometimes wakes back up after falling asleep.  Is this supposed to happen??

Today's EASY was terrible:

WU 7:30
E 7:30
S 9:35-10:20 (had to bounce, then help her find thumb)

E 10:30
E 12:00 (was super upset, I'm not sure why)
S 12:50-1:35 (helped her find thumb)

E 2:00
S 3:35-4:20 (helped her find thumb)

E 4:30
E 6:20 (decided to try to do an abbreviated BT routine rather than a nap)
S 7:30-7:35 (started trying after feed, but only succeeded at 7:30... except not)
E 7:35 (trying to get her to go back to sleep)

So here we are. It's 8pm and she's been up since 4:20 and she won't go to sleep. No bath during BT routine this time. I guess she needed that 4th nap after all.

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #100 on: July 13, 2017, 05:30:05 am »
How much are you pushing those A times? I think these 2hr A times are becoming habit for her so she's falling asleep quite easily but she is actually UT and that's why you're getting 45min naps. She can likely go much longer than 2hr given she's still taking a 45min nap at the end of the day with 2hr A times and only 45min naps. I suspect given she's 5 months, you're likely to be needing closer to 2.5hr A time to get restorative naps.

And then she sometimes wakes back up after falling asleep.  Is this supposed to happen??
Is she a bit OS from the upset with the flailing, etc. before falling asleep do you think?

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #101 on: July 13, 2017, 22:53:48 pm »
How much are you pushing those A times? I think these 2hr A times are becoming habit for her so she's falling asleep quite easily but she is actually UT and that's why you're getting 45min naps.

Hmmm I think you're right. I was only pushing a little - actually, times still ended up at 2:05, 2:20, 2:00.

Today's schedule is crazy because we had visitors and went out to visit friends and had a catnap in the wrap. But A times so far have been 2:25 and 2:30... and 45m between 15m catnap and coming home to take a real nap. The first nap after 2:25A was still only 35 minutes though. Maybe need a few days to adjust.

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #102 on: July 14, 2017, 01:43:00 am »
Yes, a few days to adjust and maybe a bit excited with different places and people.

Offline annesmama

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #103 on: July 15, 2017, 03:44:50 am »
Today went better, but BT is still a struggle.  I got her down following the BT routine at 8:10 without too much trouble.  But she woke up within 10 minutes.  Daddy went and bounced her back down, but again, she woke up after a few minutes.  She's still up now (9:45pm).  It's the same way she always wakes up these days: she rolls onto her tummy and instead of sleeping starts doing pushups and crying.  :(  I don't know what happened.  A couple weeks ago, I'd often find her sleeping on her tummy -- some of her best naps were that way.  But now, she always wakes up at 45minutes turned onto her tummy, and later in the day she often wakes up soon after being put down, same thing.  Note that she can only roll back-to-tummy, she still can't roll tummy-to-back.  (Well, she's done it a few isolated times, but nothing regular.)

We've rearranged the BT routine based on what's been stimulating, i.e. changing into PJs turned out to be stimulating -- something about pulling stuff over her head, I think -- so we moved it up to the beginning:

1. Change into PJs and night diaper
2. Go for a walk around the neighborhood
3. Sit in the rocking chair and talk about our day quietly
4. Sit in the rocking chair and read Goodnight Moon (will cut this -- she seemed to perk up at the book)
5. Sit in the rocking chair and say good night to all the stuff in our room.
6. Turn down the lights and do bedtime feed (she seemed to perk up at the feed tonight, but I'm not sure about cutting it, because other nights she's gotten really mellow after it)
7. Turn on white noise, turn off lights, draw curtains
8. Put on sleep sack
9. Bounce + sing to sleep -- she falls asleep and then I put her down.  I don't think we can do independent sleep for BT yet.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 04:49:00 am by annesmama »

Offline becj86

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Re: Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?
« Reply #104 on: July 15, 2017, 22:13:18 pm »
4. Sit in the rocking chair and read Goodnight Moon (will cut this -- she seemed to perk up at the book)
Yes, this was an issue for us too - you can still read to her of course but just at a different time of day and perhaps after a feed at the beginning of A time.

Looks good. You are best placed to tell whether to keep or stop the BT feed.

But now, she always wakes up at 45minutes turned onto her tummy, and later in the day she often wakes up soon after being put down, same thing.  Note that she can only roll back-to-tummy, she still can't roll tummy-to-back.
This sounds like she's working on rolling the other way - keep up the tummy time in the day to give her plenty of time to practise while she's awake. It won't stop her doing this whilst sleeping but it can help the phase pass more quickly. You will likely have similar issues when she's figuring out crawling, standing and walking :)