Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?

[annesmama]

You will likely have similar issues when she's figuring out crawling, standing and walking

We're having a double whammy, I suppose, because she's also working on crawling.  Today was another day of all-short naps.  We've had A times up to 2:15-2:30 for the last few days, but doesn't seem to help with extending her naps.  I guess it's because of the crawling part?  Sigh but she's been working on it for over a week!  She's getting better at getting herself up on hands and knees but still not close to actually crawling.

Last Thursday was the last time we had a good long nap.  Since then it's all been short and/or required a lot of work to extend.  Is it normal for these developmental phases to last so long?

[becj86]

She'd be coming up for 6 months now, yes? A times at 6 months are usually 2:45 to 3hr average with 3-2 nap transition either done or in progress.

Last Thursday was the last time we had a good long nap.  Since then it's all been short and/or required a lot of work to extend.  Is it normal for these developmental phases to last so long?

You mean about 5 days? If so, yes normal to be this long, generally 1-2 weeks.

[annesmama]

No, 12 days.  Yesterday I was able to extend a nap though!
She'll be 6 months in another 3 weeks, so still closer to 5 months.

Still having trouble with BT. It's totally different from nap time, where when we start pushing A, she melts down into a ball of tiredness and just needs to sleep. At BT she easily goes 3-4 hours and no amount of APOPing will get her to sleep earlier. We do the BT routine aiming for a reasonable BT (1.5-2 hours A, usually) but it never happens. Maybe we need to cut the third nap and just let her do her long A thing??

EDIT: Two long naps today, and a catnap, but still no go on BT.  It's 9pm and she woke up from "first bedtime" (8pm) at 8:40pm.  I suppose second bedtime will be around 10pm.  :\  She gets about 10 hours of night sleep and 3-4 hours of day sleep.  Isn't that way too little??

[becj86]

Isn't that way too little??

Its I think the lowish end of normal but if she's happy and developing fine, its not really something to worry about.

At BT she easily goes 3-4 hours

I wonder if she's OT... is there a period of fussiness then she's happy and almost overexcited thereafter? Maybe just watch and see if there's a trough somewhere in that time - that might be the time to then consider for BT if its reasonably consistent time of day or A time from last nap.

[annesmama]

Yesterday: 3 naps, each 35 minutes.  A times were 2:15, 2:25, 2:40 -- and then BT was 8:00!  No second BT!  She woke at 8:40 as usual but I was able to get her to go back to sleep.  Had to nurse/cosleep to do it, though.  But worth it?  She slept 11.5 hours!  With wakeups, of course, but it's still a new record!  So she really seems to be doing a total of 13 hours, spread out between naps and night sleep...?

I'm a little concerned that she's not self-soothing any more -- either I have to bring her thumb to her mouth, or she's showing a preference for my pinky over her thumb =\

Ah, there she is, awake again -- 45 minutes, right on schedule.  Sounds happy though.  BBL.

[becj86]

Hmmm... the longer nights is good

Not sure wrt naps, how have the last few days been?

[annesmama]

Last couple days have been a bit more "normal" for naps: 1 long nap, 1 ~45 minutes, and the last nap is usually shorter (30-35m).  But she hasn't self-settled for any of them.  She's either sucked my finger or nursed to sleep.  DH and I have decided it's time to cut the bouncing/sucking props before they get any worse.  Today, for her first nap, it took a long time (30mins) of crying to get her to sleep.  She woke after 45 minutes, unhappy, and we were able to get her back down by the same method, only 5-10 minutes or so.  She'll probably wake up soon...

We're doing something of a cross between PU/PD and sh-pat.  PU/PD seems to presuppose that you are able to calm your child by picking them up... which is not the case for us.  So we pick up occasionally if she's really screaming just to reassure her that we are still here for her.  I found that she tends to calm if I sit her up, but I think that's because it stops her legs from flailing.  So now we are mostly holding her legs down, patting or placing a hand on her chest, and speaking reassuringly to her.  It's a lot of crying, but (so far) does eventually work, which is why we're doing it on a weekend when DH is home.  I couldn't do it all day by myself.

[becj86]

Sounds like a good plan and good that's you're starting with DH home to help.

[annesmama]

First nap was the worst. Second nap was easier, only 5 minutes of crying, no screaming, but didn't extend. Third nap went down with no crying but didn't extend. BT went down at 9:20 but woke at 10.  Last feed had been 8pm so didn't think she was hungry but she wouldn't go down. At 11pm I fed her and then she went to sleep. NW at 3am - tried for a few minutes, then fed -- and 6:20 -- tried until 6:45, then fed. And then she was awake for the day. We'll see how today goes.

[annesmama]

Day 2: First nap went down with only a little fussing, had to hold her legs, woke happy after 45 mins.  Second nap fell asleep while walking to bedroom. Woke unhappy @45m, took 20mins of hand on chest and legs, talking, etc to resettle.  Slept another full 45-50 minutes before I woke her to go out.  Third nap went down easy, woke happy after 40 minutes.  Fourth nap (aka BT#1) was a little bit of fussing, not too bad.  Was hoping for it to be BT, but no such luck: we still ended up with BT#2 at 10pm.

Night 2: Not as good as night#1. Fed at 3 (again) and 6:30 (again).  But she also woke up at 1am and 5am and took several minutes to settle without feeds.

Day 3 (today): First nap -- was intending to just put her in her crib for a minute while I got out some stuff, but she started trying to self-settle. Once I turned the lights out and turned on white noise, she fell asleep in a few minutes with just my hand on her chest.  I tried holding her legs but she seemed to be trying to push my hands away, so I stopped and she was able to stop flailing without it.  Woke @50m not-quite-happy but not sad enough to keep sleeping.  Second nap: fell asleep the second I put her down (I had been vacuuming just before), stirred @35m but self-settled for a full 2-hour nap!  EDIT: Third nap: self-settled again! Slept 55m.

Night 3: BT at 9:50 (I was out and DH couldn't get her to sleep) required me to keep hands on her & talk to her, but she actually stayed asleep!  NF at 1:30a, 5a -- tried getting her to settle without a feed, but didn't work -- hoping she'll drop one of these soon.  WU ~8am.

One issue has been that her A times have been all over the place. But that's when she starts rubbing her eyes and yawning and burrowing her head -- we're following her cues because that seems to help with the self-settling thing, and I don't want to push her into OT.  We'll try extending As again once she's better at falling asleep.

Another issue is the 6:30am "night feed".  It's too early for wakeup, especially with her late bedtimes!  But we can't get her to go back to sleep without a feed.  Is it normal to have a night feed so close to wakeup?

[becj86]

  Is it normal to have a night feed so close to wakeup?

As they move towards dropping a NF, sometimes it just is close to WU and you just have to do a topup feed at WU to keep the day going properly.

[annesmama]

Day 5: WU at 8:15, self-settled for first nap, second nap fell asleep in car but self-settled on transfer to crib, hand on hip for third nap to prevent rolling.  BT was meh though - thought we were getting it at 7:25, but it turned out to be a short catnap. Real BT was 9:45, required both hands on her, talking soothingly.
Night 5: Woke at 1a and 2a but I was able to settle her with a hand on her.  Fed at 3a and 6:30am.

Day 6: WU at 8:00, self-settled for all three naps!  But BT   Got her to sleep at 8:35pm -- was hoping that by getting closer to her other BTs, it would stick... nope. She slept for an hour, was up 9:30-11, happy at first and then increasingly sad and then screaming.  Fed her at 11 and then she went down for the night.
Night 6: Woke for feed at 3:30am, woke at 6a but I was able to get her to go back to sleep without feeding. She woke again at 7a, so I decided to make that WU & E.  Am hoping the earlier WU will help us pull BT together tonight.

I just don't understand why she won't STAY asleep at BT.  Everything talks about doing earlier bedtimes, etc, but she starts her day between 7 and 8am and she wakes from her third nap between 5pm and 5:30pm, so we can't exactly do a 6pm or 6:30pm BT -- she isn't tired enough until at least 7 or 7:30pm.  She won't sleep when she's not tired!  That's the mistake I was making when I first started this thread... She often goes down pretty easily at 7:30ish (self-settles or settles with only a little help), but she won't STAY asleep.  Yesterday, when she slept for an hour before waking, I was so hoping... but no.  And the second settling at ~10pm is always a lot harder; it's usually been a couple hours since her last feed, and sometimes she just won't do it until she's fed again. :\  The one time she's stayed asleep this week was Monday, when she woke from her third nap at 5pm and didn't go to sleep until nearly 10pm.  But she stayed asleep that time.  I was gone for a couple hours in the evening and she had Daddy to herself, could that have affected things?

[becj86]

She often goes down pretty easily at 7:30ish (self-settles or settles with only a little help), but she won't STAY asleep.

This is something that you actually have to tackle. By getting her up and behaving as if she's had a nap, she gets that message and will continue to wake. As soul-destroying as it is sitting in a darkened room with a baby who wants to play because that's what she has always done at 9pm, you actually can only address this by treating that WU as a NW. No lights, minimal interaction. If she's happy, leave her in the cot. If she's crying, comfort her and help her fall back to sleep (use your sleepy phrase/BT song, etc.) but don't play, don't take her out into light. Once she gets the message that it is night time from when you put her down at 7:30/8pm then she will be more likely to sleep from then.

[annesmama]

Alrighty. We're just gonna go for it from here out. Last night she went to sleep around 8, woke up at 8:30, got her to settle for another 15 mins but then she was up again. So kept her in her crib, let her kick around if she was happy, put a hand on her and told her it was bedtime if she was sad. I fed her at 9 since she had fallen asleep without a BT feed. She kicked around and then started getting really fussy around 10:45, so I fed her and she went to sleep.  (I was mostly dozing for those 2 hours... I need more sleep than this baby apparently.)

She woke up this morning at 9am!  :/  we normally let her sleep until she naturally wakes up but this is getting silly... we should probably start picking a time to just wake her up? Oh but I love sleeping until I naturally wake up, it's such a lovely feeling. She's so happy when she wakes up like that. She does seem to self-regulate to 10-10.5 hours of night sleep. Sigh.

[becj86]

Yes, you do have to realise though that she is a baby and isn't used to day/night cycles as we are. In the spirit of starting as you mean to go on, it is worth waking her at your chosen time, I'd suggest perhaps a time you know will still be ok when you have to get out of the house for daycare/kindy/school or one that works for your family all week (babies don't know to sleep in on weekends), and taking her outside to show her the sun - great for helping her regulate her day/night rhythm. That will also help with the bedtime falling asleep bit.

What you can do to make the waking up less painful for her is to watch for when she stirs and just wake her gently then so its in the lightest part of her sleep and least disrupting to her sleep cycle.

Well done on sticking it out in the dark all that time last night, keep at it for a few more nights and it should start to pay off. You might find she wakes earlier in the am on her own if she stays asleep or that she does indeed sleep 11-12hr nights when she goes to sleep and stays asleep at BT.