Newbie - desperate for help with all sleep. Please!

[JCN]

Hi, I am new to this site. Having been a lurker on Netmums since my LB was born in now seeking help on this site for his sleep issues, as BW was recommended by someone on there.

He's 8months, just. But was 1 month prem so his adjusted age is 7 months old.

His sleep as ALWAYS been an issue. He has never slept trough the night and has always fought day time sleep and cat naps - only ever having 30mins per nap.

He wakes 2 hourly in the night, minimum. Often unable to resettle him at all from4am onwards.

I've tried EASY routines but his naps aren't long enough and I can't figure out what his awake time should be based on his rubbish sleep. He's almost always in a constant state of over tiredness.

I've tried PUPD and ssh pat techniques to extend naps and for night waking, but this only ends in him crying harder and for longer and seeming to fight it more.

I'm now ill with exhaustion (I have no help at home) and due back at work in 1.5minths.

I'm desperate for help and advice. Please.

[jessmum46]

Hi and (((hugs))), it can all be so overwhelming at times can't it?  Especially when you are tired. 

To help us get started, could you tell us how you normally settle him to sleep and how you resettle him at night when he wakes?

Could you also keep a diary for the next 2 days for us, just recording when he wakes, eats, when you start trying for sleep and when (and for how long) he actually sleeps?  Don't worry if it seems all over the place or a big disaster, just write it down.  That gives us a good place to begin and hopefully we can help you work towards better sleep for you both

Can I also check - does he have any medical problems for example reflux that could contribute to unsettled sleeping?

[JCN]

Thank you for replying - I really am at my wits end! He does suffer from mild milk allergies but is on a prescription milk and once was switched to this he did 2 weeks of sleeping MUCH better at night and slightly better in the day.

For day time naps, I settle him by taking him up to his room (which is dark with a black out blind), playing white noise and having a quick cuddle (not rocking). Then he has a dummy and a comforter, which I give to him and put him down in his cot - either drowsy or wide awake. His reaction to this differs (I assume based on whether he is UT/OT). Sometimes he settled himself very quickly, sometimes I have to put his dummy back in a few times, sometimes I have to turn him
On his side and sssh/pat, other times he screams and I do PU/PD. Although I have to admit, after half an hour of crying (if this is how he is responding) I often pick him up because he gets into a state and can't settle at all. Once he wakes up after 30mins of a nap, none of these methods work to get him back to sleep - not even if I picked him up and rocked him. He is just wide awake, yet still clearly tired. Which results in him having a very short awake period.
 I respond the same in the night - give him dummy, Pat/sssh, PU/PD. Although again I end up co-sleeping from 4am most of the time because he gets into a state and doesn't seem to resettle at all, at this time,with any of the methods that previously work earlier in the night.
He dropped any night feeds at around 5 months old. I'm almost positive he's not hungry.

[JCN]

Hi and (((hugs))), it can all be so overwhelming at times can't it?  Especially when you are tired. 

To help us get started, could you tell us how you normally settle him to sleep and how you resettle him at night when he wakes?

Could you also keep a diary for the next 2 days for us, just recording when he wakes, eats, when you start trying for sleep and when (and for how long) he actually sleeps?  Don't worry if it seems all over the place or a big disaster, just write it down.  That gives us a good place to begin and hopefully we can help you work towards better sleep for you both

Can I also check - does he have any medical problems for example reflux that could contribute to unsettled sleeping?

I will also keep a diary for a couple of days and post the first part back tomorrow evening. I'm sure it will be a huge disaster and a big mess with all the wrong things and timings. I know by this age he should be having about 3 hours awake but he only manages about 2hours (sometimes only 90mins) before he's yawning, rubbing eyes and grumpy!

[jessmum46]

Don't worry, just post what happens and we can work from there x

[JCN]

Day 1.... so far!
(NB: had a bad night prior to this- several long night wakings and failed resettles throughout. Ended up night feeding once too which I haven't done in 3 months)

06:15 WU + A
06:30 E bottle

(7:15 started yawning & getting irritable)
(7:30 yawning)

7:30 E solids

(7:50 starting to rub eyes & get grizzly-so started quiet activities)
7:55 put down in cot for S - self settled in 5mins.
S 8.00-9.10 (1hr10)


9:15 A
(10:15 yawning and grizzly)
(10:25 yawning and crying)

10:30 E bottle (cried & moaned throughout, didn't take full feed.)

(10:50 yawning and getting grizzly again, so started quiet activities)
11:10 put down in cot for S - quiet moaning, crying & yawning. Left to self settle until cries got louder and more persistent - resettled with dummy and placing hand on back/chest (only had to do this once).
S 11:20-11:50 (30m) (tried PUPD to extend, for 15mins-unsuccessful, even though he keptnyawning between his cries)

11:50 A
12:30 E solids


Please help! I have no idea when to attempt another nap now and he's just so grumpy!!!

[jessmum46]

Hang in there and get through today as best you can I'll wait to see tomorrow as well before I offer too much in the way of specific advice but broadly speaking I think you are going to need to try a big push on awake times to get out of a difficult cycle.  In very general terms it looks like you have fallen into a very common trap of keeping awake times too short and so have ended up in a cycle where he can't sleep well at night and can't nap well either, and so seems tired and grumpy all the time. 

A typical 6-7 month old routine would have two naps and an awake time of about 3 hours.  Let's see how tomorrow goes for you and then we can try to come up with a plan x

[JCN]

Ok, here is Day 1 completed...
day 1
(NB: had a bad night prior to this)

06:15 WU + A
06:30 E bottle

(7:15 started yawning & getting irritable)
(7:30 yawning)

7:30 E solids

(7:50 starting to rub eyes & get grizzly-so started quiet activities)
7:55 put down in cot for S - self settled in 5mins.
S 8.00-9.10 (1hr10)


9:15 A
(10:15 yawning and grizzly)
(10:25 yawning and crying)

10:30 E bottle (cried & moaned throughout, didn't take full feed.)

(10:50 yawning and getting grizzly again, so started quiet activities)
11:10 put down in cot for S - quiet moaning, crying & yawning. Left to self settle until cries got louder and more persistent - resettled with dummy and placing hand on back/chest (only had to do this once).
S 11:20-11:50 (30m) (tried PUPD to extend, for 10mins-unsuccessful)

11:50 A
12:30 E solids

(13:00 yawning and grizzly)
(13:25 rubbing eyes and grumpy)

14:00 put down to sleep. Resettled twice with dummy and hand on back.
S 14:10-14:30 (wouldn't resettle in cot, ended up picking up and holding/rocking until asleep & then putting back down in cot. I know this isn't recommended but he was clearly exhausted and I didn't know what else to do) 14:40-15:10

15:30 E bottle offered but refused (this is common, think he is beginning to need less milk)

*not sure about tired cues between now and tea time as my parents took him out for a walk so that I could rest.

17:00 E dinner (normally I try and do this slightly earlier at 16:30/45, but he was out)

17:40 bedtime routine starts- quiet time in nursery and story time.
17:45 bath time
18:00 baby massage in dim room, pjs on
18:10 E bottle (in dark nursery with white noise on)
18:15 put down for S, drowsy but awake.
S 18:20- ? (Likely to have lots of night wakings again I assume)

BT is anywhere between 18:00-18:30 normally. I usually try and time it 3-3.5hours A time from last nap.

[JCN]

Night 1
NWs:
S 18:20 - 05:20
(Resettled with dummy and back patting)
(This is the longest sleep he's done in almost 2 months, by a long stretch!)
S 5:25 - 5:30 😒
(Rolling around in cot, stretching, playing with dummy)
5:35 started moaning so I tried to resettle in cot, unsuccessfully. Rocked in chair and held but he only dozed on and off.

06:10 WU
06:15 E bottle


This is honestly the best night he had in well over a month. He must have known I've been asking for help! Haha. I assume it was just a fluke though, seems how he napped terribly yesterday and I didn't do anything different.

Going to stretch to 3 hours A time today, especially as hopefully he's not OT after last night.

[JCN]

Day 2

06:10 WU
06:15 E bottle
7:30 E breakfast
8:30 quiet wind down time as getting very grizzly, rubbing eyes and yawning.
8:40 put down to S
(We were visiting my in laws this morning and weren't at home so I lay him on their spare bed with his dummy and comforter but I lay next to him (not touching him) for extra familiarity. Not ideal I know, but compromises must be made in order to be able to get out the house I guess!)
S 8:45  - 9:30 (resettled)
S 9:30-9:50

10:30 E refused milk
(10:45 rubbing eyes and yawning)
(11:00 yawning)
11:00 E refused milk - given snack instead (as previously stated; we are in the process of dropping some milk feeds I think)
(12:00 yawning so much I thought his head would fall off!)
12:30 E lunch
12:50 quiet wind down activities
13:00 put down for S (again in spare bed at in laws with me laying down)
S  13:05-13:35 (resettled & woke up again seconds later, 3 times...quick cuddle, put down,dummy&back patted until fully asleep)
S 1:40-14.05 (this second part of his nap was much more unsettled dozing than quality sleep, needed lots of patting inbetween him tossing and turning)(resettled with dummy and held for cuddle)
S 14:05 - 14:20 (resettled with dummy and put back down on bed)
S 14:25-14:50

15:00 E bottle
16:45 E tea
17:40 BT routine starts - story time, bath time
18:10 E bottle
18:15 S


So he's still catnapping basically, despite the longer A times. Thankfully today I was able to extend his naps another cycle, as I stayed in the room with him...but obviously this isn't usually the case. At home, by the time I've got up the stairs to him, he's too awake to resettle. I know I have to work on his self settling...but he self settles at night, sometimes!, so I know he can do it. And, as seen in my day 1 notes, he *can* have naps for 1hr+ in his cot with no intervention. But it's only once in a blue moon.

I know you'll probably be shaking your head in disbelief that at 8 months old our routine is so bad. I'm a lover of routine and I'm not sure how we spiralled out to this point. I feel terrible and a rubbish mum. I just need help.

[JCN]

This thread seems to have died but I thought I'd post out second night anyway....

S 18:20-04:00 (resettled with dummy)
S 04:00-04:15 (self settled back to sleep)
He then woke every 10-20mins and needed resettling until 5:30 when he was wide awake and wouldn't resettle. Cuddles in the nursing chair got him to doze and close his eyes until 5:50 but after that I just left him in his cot to chat to himself until I got him up at 6:00.

We've always had this issue with 5:00/5:30 WUs. Even when he was very tiny. When he was poorly as a newborn this used to be the time that his tummy would hurt the most and I put it down to that, but it has continued long since.

[jessmum46]

I'm here hun, don't worry just a busy mum like yourself trying to keep things together at home too!

I actually think that day 2 was pretty good!  Definitely think heading for 3h A times and two naps is the way forwards.  Chronic overtiredness and unsettled naps won't be fixed in a day but you got some good length naps there if you ignore the resettles which tells me you're on the right lines.

I would try to stay consistent with as close to 3h A as you can manage and see what happens next few days x

[JCN]

Thank you. Have tried to stick at it today and had a similar response. Unfortunately we have a busy week ahead and I'm either out of the house at groups or appointments all morning or all afternoon almost every day this week, which I'm sure will throw us and cause over tiredness where naps are missed or cut short!!

Here's what today looked like...

Day 3

05:50 WU.    (I will SO need to do something about these EWs eventually!)
06:15 E
07:45 E
(08:30 wind down, 08:45 put down on our bed as cot unavailable)
S 08:55 - 9:25 (cuddled) 9:25-10:00 (unable to resettle)

10:45 E snack
12:30 E lunch
(12:55 put down on bed, awake and playing for 30mins, no interest in sleep despite my attempts to settle, then cranky and fighting sleep, 13:45 moved him and put down in cot with brief back patting)
S 13:50 - 14:55

15:30 E
16:45 E
(17:40 bedtime routine- story and bath)
18:10 E
S 18:20 -

[jessmum46]

That's not too bad, I know it feels awful when you are in the thick of it but honestly on paper that's pretty reasonable!

I know it's tough when 'life things' have to be done but when you are trying to get a routine established it can be helpful if for a short time you can make naps a priority - just to set their body clocks into some sort of rhythm.  Not forever!  But once things are established it does make those off days easier to deal with   Is there anything you could rearrange just for the next few days?  Don't stress if not, just do what you can, but just be aware it may take a bit more time for things to settle.

Your early mornings may change a little once the routine is a bit more evened out, but if he is regularly asleep before 6.30pm actually 5-5.30am is a pretty decent WU time (not in my book!  But you see what I mean - there's only so much they can sleep).  Anything over 10.5h or so at night is enough for some kids, so I would suspect that to get the WU consistently better you may need to shift the whole day (a bit like you would for daylight savings).  My DD was great at super long nights but DS was a very different sleeper with a standard 11h night, so bedtime before 7pm just didn't work out for him when he was younger.  See how you go next few days and if you can get into a nice 2 nap rhythm then we can see if there is anything we can do to get the morning WU a bit later x

[JCN]

I suppose it's hard to see the positives when you're so tired and it seems like everyone else's babies are sleeping like angels! I agree with needing a later BT eventually though. I was only saying to my husband the other day that I think he only needs about 10 hours sleep, regardless of what baby books say he should have at this age. But I think a laterBT is a long way off for us unfortunately, he would find it incredibly difficult to stretch much further from a 14:30/15:00 WU in the afternoon. I am going to try and stretch to 18:30 rather than 18:15 asap though - as this is what we used to do before he dropped a nap.

So anyway....Last night wasn't great.

S 18:20 - 22:30 (resettled very quickly)
S 22:30 - 03:00 (resettled very quickly)
S 3:00 - 4:00 and then woke every 15mins or so until 5:00 when he was just clearly wide awake and ready for the day. I left him in his cot as long as possible but he just got bored and moany so at 05:20 I had to get up with him.

If I stick to 3h A times this will mean 3 naps today or if I stretch him further to and try to stick to normal 2 nap timings then I risk him being OT!