FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!

[ellieelmo]

Hi everyone,
My first time posting here in desperate need of some help!
My EBF dd is 3 months old and has never been a good sleeper. From 3-7 weeks I used to be able to get her down for a 30 min morning nap, 1-2hr afternoon nap and then fight to get her to sleep at night, starting at 7pm with some success by 11pm. That was before. Now we are in a new fresh hell.

1. dd is overtired and now fights all sleep
2. dd is a very curious baby, interested in everything going on around her (so says HV)
3. we have a bath, book, bottle, lullaby bedtime routine which seems to be for my benefit only, starting at 5.30pm
4. Won't take a dummy
5. EBF

The last two days I have been militant trying to get her to have some sleep. I have been doing this by watching her like a hawk and the first sign of tiredness whipping her off to a darkened room, swaddle, sing, womb sounds. If I'm lucky this routine, with breast thrown in as a 'dummy', will have her sleeping within 2hrs for anything from 25mins to 2hrs. However, she wakes up happy and smiley but yawning and rubbing her eyes so I change her nappy quick sticks and repeat the routine.

Night sleep looks like;
bedtime routine at 5.30 - 6pm
down in her basket in our room between 8-10pm
up 2.5hrs later, BF both sides, back down. If I'm lucky I can do the whole feed and back down in 20mins.
up 2.5hrs later, feed
up 1.5hrs later, feed
up 1hr later, feed
co -sleep, dd will not go back down
nurse/doze from 4.30 to 6 then epic kicking (I've learnt this means she needs a poo). Back rub to help the poo along, nappy change, nurse/dose from 6.45 - 8.30. If I'm not too knackered I'll remove her from breast so she at least gets 30mins of sleep.

At this point I'll change her again, pleading with the sleep gods that whilst I'm changing her she won't start jerky movements or yawn (my prayers go unanswered), whip off to bedroom to begin the routine above. Repeat. all. day.

I've been doing this really strictly for the past two days because I will literally do anything to get her the sleep she needs. She used to fall asleep on the breast (I know  ) but now the can't even get her to do that. She likes the sling but now will only nap for 20 mins in it, because she's over tired?

Tonight she was bathed and routine done by 5pm and here I am at 8pm, just having picked her up for the 3rd time as she's woken up again. She just moans (which will escalate to a full on crying fit if left) and then smiling as soon as she's picked up. I've put her down asleep twice, once through rocking, once feeding to sleep as, as above I just need her to sleep!

Appreciate any help in getting out of this horrific mess. I am basically alone as dh works 8am - 8pm.

ellieelmo

[ginger428]

Hi Ellieelmo, welcome to BW.

This was my life almost exactly! I distinctly remember pacing the room, rocking him in tears just begging him to fall asleep!

For us, it turned out to be a combination of him being spirited/sensitive (go figure- always on the low end of sleep needs) and having bad reflux and food sensitivity (tested his poop for blood). He got ranitidine for his reflux and I did the elimination diet for the food. It wasn't a great time, but we got through it!

[annesmama]

Hi, your DD sounds similar to mine (curious+interested).  Maybe some of the info on my thread will be helpful to you?  See "Teaching nap sleep to a 3mo old when shush pat doesn't work?"

Some things I've learned:

1. Spirited babies can stay awake longer than you think! I used to spend a long time trying to get her to sleep, but after extending her wake times, I find that she goes to sleep right away.
2. Yawning is not a reliable cue for my DD - she does it often wayyy earlier than she's ready to sleep. She also does it when she first wakes up, whether or not she's tired still.

[ellieelmo]

Hi there,
Thank you for your replies.
+ginger438 that has been my evenings for 3months! she doesn't have reflux but I am cutting certain intolerance foods out to see if that helps. I don't have any dairy apart from cheese so will loose that for a few days and see what difference that makes.
+annasmama thanks for the tip! I've read your thread but whilst you actually get some naps I don't get any so there's no A times to tweak! As well as yawning dd rubs her red eyes and stares blankly and has a blue tinge around the mouth. My biggest problem is knowing what to do once I see these cues! I currently swaddle or rock or white noise but nothing works and then the window is gone.

Could you both list what you do as soon as you see sleepy cues?
Appreciate your replies!

ellieelmo 

[ginger428]

I second what Annesmama said... my DS has always had longer awake times and anywhere from 1-3 hrs BELOW the avg total sleep.  Some spirited children I know certainly do sleep well, so it varies. But our kiddos sound similar for sure.

I had a similar routine for naps and bt- bath, dark (eventually blacked out) room, nurse, song, sound machine, except at that point he either was rocked to sleep or nursed to sleep.

Would you be willing to try giving her a nap at 6:30 for 20 or so mins, then put down at 9:00? I had a friend who said that they started with a really late BT, sometimes 9:30/10, and just had the mindset that the 6:00ish sleep was a nap.  (In retrospect, I remember DS crying a lot when he woke at 7:00 and would not go back to sleep.  I was so frustrated at one point I said, fine, let's stay up and play and he did! And went to bed fine a couple of hours later.  )

[annesmama]

Hmm, and it sounds like you don't even get to start each day rested at least   Is her basket comfortable?  Have you tried other sleep surfaces?  I dunno how to combat OT if nothing at all is helping your DD sleep.  I'd expect you'd want to do whatever it takes to dig out of the OT hole before trying to get to independent sleep.  Do you have an exercise ball?  That's our secret weapon - bouncing on the yoga ball.  It works when all other forms of rocking fail.

I look for either one of these signs to begin a nap:

(1) she starts fussing-crying and not even playing/walking with her helps
(2) sufficient A time has passed

...whichever is sooner. (Today we are up to 2 hour A times! What?? I don't even know. But she still goes down to sleep beautifully, so it's apparently working for her...? But not exactly because she still doesn't take long naps!)

Then the nap routine is:

0. Say "Let's go take a nap"
1. Go potty
2. Go to bedroom (which is already dim and has white noise on)
3. Put on PJ pants and sleep sack
4. "It's time to take a nap. It's time to sleep." Bounce+sing until eyes start closing (working on changing this to "hold still and upright until relaxed" -- it worked this morning!)
5. Put down in crib and shush-pat if needed

[becj86]

Hi,

First off, I think I'd reiterate what ginger has said re: reflux potentially being part of this picture. To be really frank, I've been around here 5.5 years and I've seen low sleep needs babies but I've not seen a baby sleep this little without some medical issue and most often it has been reflux. Here is some info that has helped many mums of babies with reflux who've said initially that their baby doesn't have reflux:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=654.0
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=170608.0

Something else to consider is overactive letdown/oversupply which can mimic reflux to this extent:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63604.0
http://kellymom.com/bf/got-milk/supply-worries/fast-letdown/
I think looking at how your night goes, this is a real possibility, based on the reducing time between night wakings and the early morning behaviour you describe. I had this and was told my baby had intolerance to dairy and I must eliminate dairy. Instead I pumped and mixed the milk so it was more even in fat content for a few days then block fed and he was absolutely fine without eliminating the dairy.

Can I ask you to please write down your day in EAS format (I know it won't be E - 7, S - 9, E11, etc. but whatever it is will potentially help, so just for 1-2 days if you could do that - store it all up and post at once if you can).
Can you also give us a bit of a rundown on how feeding is going - how often, one/both breasts, any behaviours before/during/after feeds, hunger cues, etc.

These 20min naps are classically overstimulation (which is possible) or more often pain (which is more likely given the frequency of them and the short nights) and is suggestive of reflux.

I think annesmama is right - independent sleep is the last thing to deal with in your situation. You currently need to get sleep however it will come (here we call that accidental parenting on purpose - APOP) and once you've a routine that suits LO, the independent sleep will come much more easily. I think in your shoes I would find a way that LO sleeps - carrier (upright, often refluxers sleep happily snuggled up to mum when they won't sleep any other way), pram (sometimes the motion is helpful), swaddled on the living room floor (mine did that for quite some time because he got so upset from moving rooms and his sleep window was so small - about 60sec I reckon at one point ), whatever works. I would then pick an A time and then offer sleep at that time but note when she actually falls asleep. By offering a sleep, I mean put LO into the carrier/pram/swaddle on the floor/whatever at that A time and keep walking/singing/chatting/whatever not in a hyper voice/entertaining manner, just plain conversation or singing if that's what you're doing (I used to tell DS all about photosynthesis).

A few things will happen:
1. She will learn that there's a consistent predictable routine even if she doesn't sleep, you're giving her the opportunity and she can take it or leave it (hopefully take it!).
2. She will get used to at least resting if not sleeping and that can help when she's this OT/wired.
3. You may find you work out what sort of WD she needs - quick hug and off to sleep or a lengthy period of chatting/singing, something in the middle. My spirited needed minimal WD, preferably none because it would actually wind him up and push him past the sleep window. I only discovered this when I did precisely this exercise with him and I had him in the pram for all naps for a few days. I'd put him in and walk, note when he fell asleep and then when I stopped using the pram, I used the new A time I had gathered from that. I learned he could get himself to sleep with minimal input. You might find she cries and needs a cuddle at a certain point (give her a cuddle if she's upset, don't just walk along ignoring her) then falls asleep. Whatever you do, pick something that will help you too - exercise, fresh air, walking to the shops to get some groceries. Do something that doesn't have you cooped up in a dark room for hours on end getting more and more frustrated. That's a recipe for mental health disaster for you and potentially that will make things worse with LO when she picks up on it (can they get worse?).

Caution:  Don't make the mistake of doing short A times to catch her up - if you get sleep, you'll get UT short naps which aren't restorative and it'll not help - it'll make it worse. Pick a sensible A time, starting with average for LO's age (1.5hr if just turned 3 months, 2hr if nearly 4 months) and with the noting of when she falls asleep, we can see what A time might suit her best.

Hugs xx You must be exhausted. I hope this helps. Any questions, ask away

[ellieelmo]

Thank you so much +becj86!
I really appreciate your response.
I've been keeping an eat, sleep, poop diary since dd was born but stopped the E a few weeks ago when her weight gain was steady. I will do what you suggest for today and tomorrow, recording everything. Of course reflux could be part of the problem but I do think the oversupply might be more likely. dd does splutter, cough and take down a lot of air when she's nursing. My HV said to make sure I lean back when nursing to slow the flow. I'll observe properly these next two days and report back.

On the plus side she's just had a 1hr nap with me hugging her in a protective C and woke smiley but yawning.

Thank you again!

[ellieelmo]

I thought I would post this bit as I continue collecting the EASY routine.

Feeding is on demand, I used to generally offer after each awakening. I offer both breasts at each feeding, I struggle to interrupt the feed to burp her as she gets very cross, arched back etc. and then I can't get the burp up. I burp after every feed and almost always get something. At night I must admit I don't spend that long burping, perhaps as long as I should, as she's drowsy and I'm nervous she'll awake properly and then it'll take ages to get her back down.

She does a kind of whiny noise when she's first hungry, then head bobbing, hand gnawing then full on crying if I've not responded! Sometimes she kind of pushes me away whilst nursing - her arm into my chest and pulls off a bit which I now think may mean she's trying to slow the flow? Sometimes she latches and unlatches repeatedly which I read as there being no milk (or she doesn't want to wait for let down?) and so I offer the other breast. When we're at home and she's fussy I offer breast usually as a first option and she always takes it so I'm not sure how many times per day that is, but if we're out for the day, she can go 3hrs without a feed. She comes off the breast satisfied, smiley and looking around for the next activity. She feeds very efficiently when we're out and about, desperate to get the feed out of the way so she can enjoy what's going on?

Some nights when she wakes I think it must be a burp as the last feed was just 40mins ago or so but then as I'm burping her she suckles my cheek or hand so I offer the breast and she feeds hungrily...

I had a milk supply problem when she was first born so had to supplement her with formula and pumped after every feed. I still pump as sometimes at the weekend I encourage dh to give her a bottle at night in which case its 160ml / 5oz which she drinks all of and then cries because its finished? so I offer the breast afterwards which she does take but not for long - 5 mins. I have not pumped for 3 days as I am knackered and fall into bed whatever time she does.

We did go through a phase at 7weeks of her being really uncomfortable with wind so she was on 1 dropper of infacol once per night, before the feed as advised by the HV.

Just some history - she has slept 5, 6hrs in a row at night before, once 7hrs but there was nothing truly different about those days' routines than any other so consider it a fluke. She also has taken 3hr naps in her basket and 4hr naps in the sling, both always around 12pm start.

Re: reflux, she hates being held in a typical babe in arms hold, will try and sit up out of it and much prefers to be on the shoulder where she rests her head if falling asleep. I've noticed since reading the reflux link that she sometimes coughes after burping and grimaces as if there's a bad taste in her mouth. I need to read a bit more on that link because I'm super confused as to whether it's reflux or a wind/gas problem. I've cut all the usual culprits but do still have fennel tea and chocolate. Is it possible this are triggering her upset +ginger438?

Thanks +annasmama for the tip about bouncing - that does seem to have a calming effect and fussiness certainly perhaps an indicator.

I've noticed, but I might be wrong, that her awake time is 1.20 ish is it possible that it's below average because of the overtiredness running in the background? Dd is 13 weeks today. 

ellieelmo

[ellieelmo]

Ok here goes:

EASY starting from 6pm 16.05.17.

BT routine starting at 6pm - red eyes
E 6.30
S 6.40 - 7 in my arms
E 7 - 7.30 comfort sucking
S 8 - 8.40 rocking and shushing, woke crying very upset, arched back, inconsolable really.
S 10 - 2am
E 2 - 2.30
S 3 - 4.45 rocking and shushing to get her off

E 5 - 5.30
S 5.30 - 6.30 dozing at breast (co sleeping)
A 6.45 - 8.40 back rub to help poop
A 9 - 10.30 quiet play in bouncer, yawning, staring and then fussiness, started wind down at 9.20
S 9.40 - 9.55 on my shoulder. then crying
S 10.30 - 11.10 tried to transfer to our bed (lying together) from shoulder, failed, crying inconsolably
S 11.30 - 11.45 woke crying

E 11.45 - 12 pulled off breast and gnawed hand but calm
S 12 - 1 I slid down from seated nursing position on bed to side lying with her, hand on her back the whole time
A 1 - 1.50 yawning, sneezing, fussiness. Started wind down at 1.51
S 2.23 - 3.12 on shoulder, first 40 mins I stood rocking her, then my arm was sooo sore I tried to maintain the same position but seated, pretty sure this woke her but thought I had felt the jolt already...

A 3.12 - 4.15, gnawing hand, yawning, kicking legs. Started wind down at 4.17
S 4.25 - 4.45 on my shoulder, rocking, couldn't settle after then, kept jerking her head back as soon as it neared my shoulder and waking herself up again, crying then hand gnawing.
E 5.09 - 5.17, then pooped

BT routine 5.25
E 6 - 6.10, big burp
E 6.15 - 6.23 (other side) unlatched and buried face in my chest. Started wind down at 6.26
S 6.37 -  7 woke smiling
burped
S 7.30 - 7.40, woke upset, hand gnawing
E 7.50 - 8
S 8.10 - 10.35
E 10.40 - 11 both sides
S 11.12 - 1.05
E 1.10 - 1.40 both sides
S 2.25 - 3.30
E 3.35 - 4
S 4.11 - 5.45 kicking legs

E 5.45 - 6
A 5.45 - 7.05 pooped
S 7.15 - 8.15? comfort sucking breast, co sleeping position

A 8.19 - 9.35
S 9.35 - 9.40. Started 9.05, rubbing eyes, yawning, gnawing hand
A 9.40 - 10.54 on and off dozing off on my shoulder then head jerking, whimpering. Once I accidentally woke her by trying to sit down
S 10.54 - 12.28 in basket

E 12.30 - 12.45
A 12.28 - 1.30
S 1.45 - 3 no wind down, I put her in the pram at 1.30. She kept stirring this whole time but settling back to sleep or rest. Didn't cry or whimper or gnaw hand. I hadn't realised how uneven our pavements are so a couple of times she stirred because she was jostled and the others because of sudden loud road works or motorbikes.

A 3 - 4
E 4 - 4.15
S 4.55 - 5.10 started 4.35 a bit later than I meant because we were having tummy time and I got carried away
S 5.25 - 5.35
S 6.15 - 7.15 on my shoulder, no rocking as I was sitting this time

E 7.15 - 7.40
S 7.45 - 8.50 I unlatched her from comfort sucking and she stayed asleep

BT 9
E 9.30 - 9.40 started wind down 9.42
S 10.08 - 1.52
E 1.55 - 2.10
S 2.28 - 5.00

Hmmmm. 

Most sleep unless mentioned was in her Moses basket. I've typically being making sure her nappy was changed and bedroom quiet an hour into her A time as I think it looks like her max is 1.20? But two major wins, one we have some naps! and two it didn't take two hours to get her off to sleep!

Thanks in advance if you can help me sort this out!
 

[becj86]

Some nights when she wakes I think it must be a burp as the last feed was just 40mins ago or so but then as I'm burping her she suckles my cheek or hand so I offer the breast and she feeds hungrily...

So this here sounds like gas - by this point, pushing her legs up to her tummy and/or a tummy massage will be more helpful than burping. Having said that. Have you tried giving her a dummy at these times? You can burp her many ways that will keep her fairly sleepy - lying her on her tummy on your forearm; or up over your shoulder rubbing her back reasonably firmly in a circle rather than patting. Burping really well is one of the most crucial steps in getting on top of the gas issues otherwise she will just keep going round in these circles of taking in lots of air because she's feeding so vigorously to get her bowels to move along and get rid of the painful gas then waking again with the same issue.

 

I've noticed, but I might be wrong, that her awake time is 1.20 ish is it possible that it's below average because of the overtiredness running in the background? Dd is 13 weeks today. 

Yes, its possible but if she's doing short naps (45min - 1:15), you have to push a little to ~1:30 I'd say so you can get out of the UT/OT cycle.

Sometimes she kind of pushes me away whilst nursing - her arm into my chest and pulls off a bit which I now think may mean she's trying to slow the flow?

Yep - this could be the ideal time to try taking her off for a burp. She may be ok with it at that time. Otherwise, you might find pumping before a feed then topping up with the bottle of what you've pumped if necessary helps because you'll have less there and she'll get a more consistent flow that's easier to cope with. Pumping can be particularly effective if you do it before the first feed of a morning - best yield from the expressing and sets you up for the day with less wind issues

Sometimes she latches and unlatches repeatedly which I read as there being no milk (or she doesn't want to wait for let down?) and so I offer the other breast.

This can happen for many reasons. I guess if she's taking the other breast happily, its probably just her preference and the reason doesn't matter too much

I'm going to suggest you resist the temptation to feed every time she's fussy. Just keeping the feeds a bit further apart can help with the wind issues. I'm hesitant to suggest some of the supply-reducing techniques that I used myself and have recommended to many ladies with oversupply, mainly because of the supply issues you had early on - what were the signs of the low supply back then? Have you had to do anything to increase your supply other than pumping?

Re: reflux, she hates being held in a typical babe in arms hold, will try and sit up out of it and much prefers to be on the shoulder where she rests her head if falling asleep. I've noticed since reading the reflux link that she sometimes coughes after burping and grimaces as if there's a bad taste in her mouth. I need to read a bit more on that link because I'm super confused as to whether it's reflux or a wind/gas problem. I've cut all the usual culprits but do still have fennel tea and chocolate. Is it possible this are triggering her upset +ginger438?

Chocolate can be a trigger Not sure about the fennel tea.
It could be a touch of both - we could do what we can to get the wind under control and if we hit another plateau, look into reflux some more.

I'll have a read of the EASY, better just get my LO off to sleep first

[becj86]

OK, so I think I've wrapped my head around it a bit - I have a few general comments that might help make things clearer over the next few days:
1. I can't tell where your 'day' and 'night' are - Sometimes it seems she's having very long naps/attempts at napping and other times she's having very long A times still.

A 3 - 4 E 4 - 4.15 S 4.55 - 5.10 started 4.35 a bit later than I meant because we were having tummy time and I got carried awayS 5.25 - 5.35 S 6.15 - 7.15 on my shoulder, no rocking as I was sitting this time E 7.15 - 7.40 S 7.45 - 8.50 I unlatched her from comfort sucking and she stayed asleepBT 9E 9.30 - 9.40 started wind down 9.42 S 10.08 - 1.52E 1.55 - 2.10 S 2.28 - 5.00

Why do you call 9pm BT here? Actually it looks like you've essentially bee get her to sleep from 4:55 til 7:1, she's eaten and gone straight back to sleep til 8:50... You also did BT routine at 5:25 the day before - her little body clock will have no chance of regulating if BT varies this much.
I would suggest that you try something like this (shift for WU in the AM / ideal WU/BT) with about a 12hr night and about a 12hr day:
7am: WU, BF - this A time to include some time outside if possible / lots of light/stimulation if not outside.
8:30 - 10am - PD for nap, resettle if necessary.
10 - WU, BF (by this I mean when next she wakes naturally after 10am, don't resettle, just get on with feeding and next A time.
11:30 - nap
1 - WU, BF
2:30 - nap
4 - WU, BF
5:30 - catnap of 45min
6:15 - WU, BF
7 - PD for the night - until 7am, no lights, no chatting, no interacting, just change nappy, feed, burp and back to bed.

2. She's taking a long time to get back to sleep after a night feed.
I think for this, you might find burping her with the back rubbing while she's over your shoulder may help get her back off to sleep a bit more quickly and give you longer stretches.

I think if I was to boil down my advice to a few points, it would be:
1. Try routine as suggested in 1. above
2. Try not to offer breast as solution to all fussiness throughout the day. Offer at WU and otherwise try tummy massage/burping, etc. first - that should help with the wind question.
3. Burp her really thoroughly after every feed, especially at night. Rubbing rather than patting should help her fall asleep vs. wake further.

Other things you can add if you feel they'll help:
4. Pump before first feed of the day - that is when you supply will be highest and the flow probably most difficult for her to cope with. You can always feed her the expressed milk if she's still hungry but keep in mind she's more efficient than any form of expressing so you might be able to use it to bulk up the BT feed
5. Maybe try tilting the moses basket so the head is a bit above the foot. That can help with both gas and reflux.

Well done, you've recorded lots of info there and yes, you've achieved some naps, which is great

[ellieelmo]

ok I cannot work out how to do the quote thing so here's some long winded responses.

First message:
I had no idea she would be nursing like that to try and push the wind through! We have a doctors appointment on monday to see her opinion on wind or reflux or both. I found a new wind expulsion move on youtube which I used this evening and was amazed a the trumps that came out of her little body! I've always struggled with the winding but your explaining how its connected to restless nights has really helped so I won't be skimping on the back rubbing from now on!

Yes, before she started waking at 5am I would pump a bit whilst dh held her because I was so full she couldn't latch but since the early starts I've dropped the pumping!

Re: low milk supply; week 2 she had regained birth weight, week 3 didn't put anything on and week 4 had returned to week 2's weight so I was advised to top her up after each feed with formula. I did that for 3 weeks and pumped like crazy to boost my supply. Back then I was drinking about 2 cups of fennel tea per day, I read it helps and eating a proper breastfeeding diet with all the good stuff (I am vegetarian) but that was it. Oh and tonnes of water.

Second message:
Yes, the A times are ridic, mostly because it takes so long to get her off to sleep. So yes the A times are far too long but no she's not having long sleeps. I really wasn't sure what to do yesterday as I was about to give up on the nap which I'd started working towards at 4.35pm when she dropped off, then woke so I fed her and then she dropped straight back off again before I had a chance to even burp her. I didn't put her down as I wanted her to have the rest and I didn't wake her but thought even though it was really late I should still follow the BT routine?? What should I have done??

Thank you for the suggested routine, I tried to follow something like that today but again, that afternoon nap eluded us. She did however have a 2hr nap (whuuuuuuut!!) in the pram but woke crying. AND THEN a 1.5hr nap in the afternoon.

It's the super early starts that are really hard as I'm just so foggy I can't logically think what I'm trying to do and then before I know it 1.5hrs have passed and I wonder why she's fussy.

Thank you so much for your help and support, I really really appreciate it and can't actually believe she's napping, albeit erratically and she still fights, there is improvement. Well tonight it took 1.5hrs to get her down despite me starting BT after an hour of A and then she woke after 30mins smiling, as if it was as nap. And then pooped so she's 2hrs off schedule already.

I have a few q's
How long, ideally should a wind down take? And, in one of your first posts you said you had worked out A times by doing all naps in the pram? Could you explain that a bit more?
Is wind accumulative as in, does it get stored up over the day and really manifest itself at night? I'm wondering whether I should go back to giving the infacol, but through the day to ease the wind, rather than just at night? Ah, just thought there might be a board on this.

Thank you again!

[becj86]

Quotes you can do on a computer but I've not had luck on a phone. Just highlight the bit you want to quote and click on the "quote selected" button at the top right of the post you're quoting from.

Re: low milk supply; week 2 she had regained birth weight, week 3 didn't put anything on and week 4 had returned to week 2's weight so I was advised to top her up after each feed with formula. I did that for 3 weeks and pumped like crazy to boost my supply. Back then I was drinking about 2 cups of fennel tea per day, I read it helps and eating a proper breastfeeding diet with all the good stuff (I am vegetarian) but that was it. Oh and tonnes of water.

Ok, so DS had these same weight issues but my breasts were still pretty full after a feed so I read around a bit and accidentally clicked on an oversupply link instead of the undersupply link underneath it and found my exact problem. It is possible for a BF baby to lose weight even if mum has too much milk.

Yes, before she started waking at 5am I would pump a bit whilst dh held her because I was so full she couldn't latch but since the early starts I've dropped the pumping!

Was this the case all along? If so, I think you may be dealing with oversupply rather than undersupply. One of the things that can mean is that baby drinks a lot of 'watery' milk before she gets to the fattier milk because the fat sticks to the walls of the ducts. Something you can do to help with that is to massage the breast before a feed (not near the areola but out near the chest wall) to release some of the fat. Another option is to pump as much as you can, pop bub on and then top up with what you've pumped if necessary. Another option again is to express then mix all the milk together and separate into bottle amounts from there - similar fat contents across several feeds can make a huge difference both to fussiness and to weight gain - DS went from gaining 20g per week early on to a couple of weeks at 170g to a couple of weeks of 500g gains then back down to normal once he'd caught up.

How long, ideally should a wind down take?

Depends on the baby. Like I said, we went through periods when my DS needed not to have a WD because it just didn't work for him. My understanding is that most WD routines would be ~5mins with moving to quiet darkened room, nappy change, cuddle and a song/sleepy phrase, then put baby into bed. You might then use shush/pat to help baby get off to sleep. 

She did however have a 2hr nap (whuuuuuuut!!) in the pram but woke crying. AND THEN a 1.5hr nap in the afternoon.

Yay for 2 awesome naps in one day!! That's great progress What I would say about waking up crying - that can be for so many reasons. Even just being a tiny bit cold/hot, seeing something different than she saw as she was falling asleep can cause that. Not being able to see you, maybe even as simple as 'hey mum, I'm awake' - its her only method of communication and not every cry means she's in major distress. You are biologically wired though, to feel like every cry requires immediate attention because that's how babes survive until they're big enough to look after themselves

I think you probably need to think of BT routine as pretty much the same as the WD - just a short little cue to LO that it is now time for sleep. I don't think these lovely elaborate 30min WDs we come up with as adults are really necessary for babies - they've not got the same perspective in life - they're not trying to let go of the stress and worry of the day/about the future, etc. They're literally living in the moment and just need a cue that its time for sleep. Read books during the day when the mood takes you, bath when it suits you both - morning/night/middle of the day - if its exciting for her, bath her in that first A time to signal that now its time to play, if its relaxing, maybe do the bath in the last A time to help her relax a bit.

Is wind accumulative as in, does it get stored up over the day and really manifest itself at night? I'm wondering whether I should go back to giving the infacol, but through the day to ease the wind, rather than just at night? Ah, just thought there might be a board on this.

The reasons its often worse at night are many:
- she's distracted in the day and not at night - pain will feel worse. Think about last time you had a sore toe or something - didn't bother you during the day but made it hard to get to sleep, yes?
- she's more upright, moving more during the day - helps get the air out as burps which are far less painful than trapped gas further down the gut, also helps the bowels move (hence people get constipated when they're laid up in bed for a while) which means the gut doesn't get as much of an accumulation of air - lying down, it'll find the highest point and just all get stuck there which then stretches the gut wall and hurts.
- your supply is lower during the day (after the first AM feed) because you're up and about doing things whereas your body can just work on making milk at night and she probably takes in less air whilst feeding because she's that bit more alert. Some babies only have really unsettled times at night after the night feed following their long stretch of sleep because that's when the milk flow is at its strongest and causes these issues you have all day long.

in one of your first posts you said you had worked out A times by doing all naps in the pram? Could you explain that a bit more?

Yep, so I had a baby who slept about as much as yours did when you first posted. I couldn't recognise any of his cues and I was cooped up in this dark room shush/patting for hours on end to no avail. He was crying all the time and not gaining weight. The doctor was starting to ask questions about how often I was feeding him and I thought she was thinking I was just not feeding him at all. I was really suffering with PND - I felt no connection with him, didn't believe he was mine and so I would take him to the shops so other people (strangers) could tell me how nice he was just so I could see enough value in him to keep looking after him. I knew I had to change something so I started going outside. I would feed him in the morning then we'd go and we'd play in the park/walk around the shopping centre until I thought he should be ready for a sleep (by the average A time), then I'd pop him in the pram and walk. I'd check on him through the little see-through bit of the pram hood and so long as he was sitting up enough that he could see out he was usually happy enough to be in the pram and would just fall asleep when he was ready. I'd note the time, lie him down and walk til he woke when I'd note the time and feed him. This was probably possible because of the place I lived - the weather was ok to do that, these places were all pretty close together.

I didn't put her down as I wanted her to have the rest and I didn't wake her but thought even though it was really late I should still follow the BT routine?? What should I have done??

I think what you did was perfectly reasonable given the circumstances, I guess I was just pointing out that if you keep having such a variation in BT, she will struggle to self-regulate. By that I mean that if we know what baby needs re: sleep amounts and what baby can reasonably manage re: A times, we can set up a routine with a loose schedule (no need to stick to it by the minute but by the quarter-half hour is worth it) that meets their needs and allow them to take what they need (and self-regulate) knowing via the predictability of the routine (EAS) that they'll have another opportunity for fulfilling this same need and by their experience with the loose schedule that this opportunity will be timely. Does that make sense? To me, that's the power of the EASY routine in the hands of loving parents. It allows a baby to learn that their needs (physical and emotional) will be met consistently.

[ellieelmo]

Hi,

Well we've had a FUN few days...

Was this the case all along? If so, I think you may be dealing with oversupply rather than undersupply. One of the things that can mean is that baby drinks a lot of 'watery' milk before she gets to the fattier milk because the fat sticks to the walls of the ducts. Something you can do to help with that is to massage the breast before a feed (not near the areola but out near the chest wall) to release some of the fat. Another option is to pump as much as you can, pop bub on and then top up with what you've pumped if necessary. Another option again is to express then mix all the milk together and separate into bottle amounts from there - similar fat contents across several feeds can make a huge difference both to fussiness and to weight gain - DS went from gaining 20g per week early on to a couple of weeks at 170g to a couple of weeks of 500g gains then back down to normal once he'd caught up.

Ah, wish I'd known that back then!

I would feed him in the morning then we'd go and we'd play in the park/walk around the shopping centre until I thought he should be ready for a sleep (by the average A time), then I'd pop him in the pram and walk. I'd check on him through the little see-through bit of the pram hood and so long as he was sitting up enough that he could see out he was usually happy enough to be in the pram and would just fall asleep when he was ready. I'd note the time, lie him down and walk til he woke when I'd note the time and feed him.

Thank you for this. This is what I've been trying to do this weekend - we've luckily had good weather. But the results have been really mixed, sometimes like today, dd dropped of in an hour to the minute! of being in the pushchair, other times it has been 1.20/ 1.40 or not at all.

It's still take 2+hrs get her down for the night. The last two nights we've had BT at 6pm, she's been 'ready' at 6.40 but actual sleep comes at 8pm for 20/30mins and then it's another hour before night sleep comes. I've just put her down for what I hope will be 2.5hrs.

Last night she work at 12.30am and I couldn't get her down again until 2.30pm due to uncomfortableness with wind. I had the light off but she was obviously having trouble latching so I turned the light on and she looked like she'd had a shower, her face was covered in milk which was shooting out at her. Sigh. But when she did finally go down it was for a 3hr stretch and she'd previously done a almost 4hr stretch so 7hrs sleep at night is a win for me. When she work at 5.40am (a lie in!) she came in with us and I got a further 2hrs sleep from her with a feed after 1hr. But then the rest of the day was a bit of a write off. Couldn't get her down for a proper morning nap just 20mins, then thought I'd be best to go out so the pram could do the rocking. She started to look a bit glazed and fussed at A 1hr so I put her in the pram thinking it would be 20/30mins before she dropped off she went ti sleep immediately but only for 30mins. Then woke I fed her, it was an hour of whimpering and me carrying her whilst pushing the pram, before I put her back in, again at 1hr and she slept for another 30mins.

I've been really careful with playtime and stimulation and WD but this weekend has been pretty bad. I think the only option is to go back to the 1.5hr average A time and assume that all the longer and shorter wake times I've been having have been affected by a bad night's sleep/ bad / missed nap before hand.

The confusing thing is, 10mins in to the WD or 10 mins into being in the pram she'll yawn and I think yes! I've got her in her sleepy place before overtiredness hits but then it's still an hour or more, usually, before the proper sleep comes. I've tried no WD just a swaddle and put down but that doesn't work. I'm really not sure where to go from here... we have the doctors tomorrow morning for her 12 week immunisations so I think it'll be a rocky day. I really wanted to have some sort of consistent night times in place before the 4month regression but that's only 2.5 weeks away so I am not hopeful.