FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!

[becj86]

New problem however, I'm not sure what time she's waking in the morning

Nice new problem to have For this, you can watch her for cues or just go from when you get her up if she tolerates it.

[ellieelmo]

Ok here goes, this is Sunday night to Tuesday morning.

BT 19.30 - accidentally nursed to sleep
S 19.34 - 23.51
E 23.52 - 00.06
S 00.11 - 03.31
E 03.33 - 03.45 thorough burp and tummy massage (lots out both ends)
S 04.17 - ? Really not sure what time she woke up... I put her down awake at 04.01 and listened to her getting comfortable until 04.17 checked she was asleep, so I went to sleep.

E 06.15 - 06.35
A ?
S 07.40 - 08.15 I guessed it had been enough A time based on her usually waking at 05.30ish, and just went with one big nose rub as my cue to offer sleep. I didn't try to put her down for this one as I wasn't sure what A time we were at so didn't want to distress her further if she was OT.

E 08.17 - 08. 30
A 2hrs
E 09.30 - 09.35
S 10.17 -?  I put her in her basket awake at 10.05, in sleep suit and after a few cuddles and bounces. She mantra cried  a bit and then fell asleep with shhh pat. (There were no yawns, usually mid settle there are yawns.) I kept my hand on her, waiting for her to melt in to the basket but instead she kept startling.

Startled at 10.24, 29, 31, 32, 34, 39, 40, 43, 48 (whimpering)

Mantra crying 10.50 - 11.00, 11.02

Actual tired crying after more startling 11.10 - 11.13

Fell asleep again at 11.20

Startled at 37, Crying at 40

Startled af 42, 46, 50 (I held her arm down a bit) 58, whimpering

I picked her up at 1200.

E 12.04 - 12.10

S 12.21 - 13.11 I didn't try to put her down this time.

A 2hr10

E 14.50 - 15.03

S 15.21 - 15.52, similar thing to the morning. I put her in her basket at 15.06, fell asleep with shhhh pat but then startled.

Startled at 15.22, 24, 30, 36, 39,

crying 47, I picked her up.

S 16.06 - 17.12 settled on my shoulder, didn't try to put her down.

E 17.16 - 17.28 fell asleep nursing so I put her down in basket wanting to wake her (that usually works for this last nap) she stretched as I bent over her basket, opened her eyes as I put her down, stretched again and fell asleep. 

S 17.32 - 18.25 No startling, no shhh pat, literally just plonked her down as I needed the loo, came back as she was fast asleep. I let her sleep through one cycle, mostly out of curiosity but woke her as it was pushing BT too late.

Last night was a bit messy as dh came home just before she was about to get in the bath so she was a bit excitable and took a long time to nurse, kept coming off and looking at the door, and settle. I did a thorough massage and burp though as she hadn't pooped yesterday (unusual as she usually has at least 2 per day).

BT 20.35

Last night.

S 20.35 - 23.41

E 23.43 - 23.50

S 23.55 - 03.04

E 03.05 - 03.19 thorough burp and massage, nothing. Put down awake at 03.24

S ? - 06.05 I'm not sure what time she actually fell asleep as I just fell asleep as soon as she was down. I woke with a start at 04.20 and she was well asleep. Dh said it took a while but he has a very  imaginative sense of time.

She's 5 months on Thursday.

What do you think?

[becj86]

Wow, she's sleeping a lot more than she used to She does still seem to be pretty unsettled during some of those naps though.

I think the unsettled naps followed by good solid sleeps may well be that she's a bit overstimulated at nap time. I found even just having the TV on as background wound DS up when he was that small.

Anyway, my thoughts re: routine would be to try something like this:

6ish - WU, E
8 - nap I'd set this and just do the first nap no earlier than 8 regardless of when she wakes and then move it 5min later every few days for a while. That will help encourage her to sleep better through those early hours of the morning and also separate night from morning more effectively for her.
9:30 - E
11:45 - nap
1:15 - E
3:30 - nap
5 - E
7/7:15 - asleep in bed for the night

That is approx. 2:15 A times with 1.5hr naps - obviously you would shift it to suit if she were to have a longer nap.

Thoughts?

[ellieelmo]

Wow, she's sleeping a lot more than she used to

Yes... that is what I keep clinging to when the days are so hard, at least it's more sleep!

I think the unsettled naps followed by good solid sleeps may well be that she's a bit overstimulated at nap time. I found even just having the TV on as background wound DS up when he was that small.

I can't think what it could be. I mean, for the last 4 days we've just stayed at home and played with the same 6 or so toys. I have the radio on but no tv. Sometimes we look out the window to the garden. We've read the same book every night. I do get her to practice rolling over and help her a bit but that's it. It could not be more boring!

Yesterday we went out because I'd been in with her for 4 days and needed to get out of the house. I timed it well I think, we had 15 mins of strolling in the pushchair but then she only did a 30min nap and was really really upset when I tried to get her back in it to come home after feeding. I had to pick her up 11 times in the 13min walk. She did the same with dh when he took her out at the weekend for the first time ever! I hoovered!!!! simple pleasures!!!!

8 - nap I'd set this and just do the first nap no earlier than 8 regardless of when she wakes and then move it 5min later every few days for a while. That will help encourage her to sleep better through those early hours of the morning and also separate night from morning more effectively for her.

Ok, I will do that and be more strict with bath time. So no matter what time she falls asleep for the last nap, I'll wake her at 5.15pm so BT doesn't go later than 7/7.15.

Routine looks a dream, if only... sigh.

Last two nights have been rough, I let her have that longer late nap APOP, until 6pm which already meant BT would be 8pm. Settled successfully in 15mins with ssshhhh pat but then she was up at 9.30, I don't know why at all. I gave her a little hug and put her back down and went off to sleep fine until:

NW 23.55 feed
NW 02.25 feed
NW 04.36 - really bad crying. I literally couldn't settle her until 06.30. I really don't know what it was. I tried ssshhh pat to start with, then PUPD, then just a little walk around the room in the dark which seemed to work her up further. PD awful crying, the kind I haven't heard for a long time. Back arching so I couldn't really do a back rub to see if it was a bad burp. I gave her gripe water, teething gel... Tried to do the tummy massage - nothing. Finally brought her into bed with us where she babbled. Then I fed her at 06.30 and she fed for a minute before falling asleep for 20 mins and then fed and then 30 mins sleep and then fed and I don't know what, I was too tired to keep track. She was awake at 08.30 proper and all smiles. She's just pooped at 09.11 but no leg kicking so I don't think that's what was up?

Agh... right. I'm sticking with your routine at least the first nap and BT parts and see how that goes.

She did have a long independent sleep on Tuesday, an hour on my shoulder and then woke a bit unhappy when I tried to bounce her back, and so I put her down in the basket and off she went for another 2hrs (no startling) so an almost 3hrs nap in the morning. But that was followed by a silly 20mins as the next one (down with shhhh pat, startled awake) and then refused the last so I did BT at 7pm which led to NW at 9pm, midnight, 3am before she work at 5.45am and I left her until 6.15am babbling before picking her up.

[becj86]

Still a bit inconsistent for you then Its hard when every day is so unpredictable. Do make sure you get out and about a bit for yourself - keeping yourself sane is really important.

See how you go with that set first nap. FX it helps! You've been so patient and persistent.

[ellieelmo]

Well, little or no improvement here but at least we're getting some consistency?

Good thing is she's started waking up a little later, around 6.30 / 7am in the morning which is good. I think cutting short the last nap at 17.15 - 17.30 is making a difference as she's really tired during bath time and goes down in about 20mins which is soooooo much better than the 2+hrs it was taking.

The first nap at 8am is touch and go. Two mornings out of 5 she's gone down for 35mins, one morning literally 4 mins and then she was up smiling, the other two mornings she just fought it so I gave up. I'll keep trying.

She's teething pretty bad now, she NWs are x4 but still only 2 of those are NF. The first NW is around 2.5/3.5hrs since she went down at about 21.30/22.30. I tried settling her with shhh pat but what seems to work best is a bit of teething gel and a hug and lay her back down and she goes off. Win! I think this means for sure that it's teething rather than OT?

We recently (3 days ago) introduced a lovey. Reason being we need to transition her to a cot soon as she's getting too tall for her basket (though it's good it's snug at the moment because she's practicing rolling like all.day.long.). We thought it would be good for her to have a familiar object to take from one sleep location to another so it's not allllll new? Don't really know how to use it but I've been propping it up to read our bed time story with us and I kind of rub it on her skin a bit at nap time and tell her it's time for sleep so hopefully she's start to associate it with sleep in a month or two.

[becj86]

If she's waking at 6:30/7am now, you can shift that first nap later - somewhere nearer 8:30/9.

the other two mornings she just fought it so I gave up. I'll keep trying.

Again, probably fighting nap due to UT - later nap should help. The idea of the 8am nap was that it was half an hour later than you were doing and it was to pull her WU later.

I tried settling her with shhh pat but what seems to work best is a bit of teething gel and a hug and lay her back down and she goes off. Win! I think this means for sure that it's teething rather than OT?

Likely, yes.

Yes, I put the whole basket in the cot so DS was sleeping in the same basket but getting used to the room and the cot bars, etc. The transition to remove the basket was pretty easy thereafter.

[ellieelmo]

I tried settling her with shhh pat but what seems to work best is a bit of teething gel and a hug and lay her back down and she goes off. Win! I think this means for sure that it's teething rather than OT?

I take that back... Last couple of nights we've been having 4x wake-ups but nothing settles her apart from the breast. Not ssshh pat, not bouncing her to sleep then laying her down, not teething gel and a hug.

Naps have been so rubbish I'm embarrassed to post our EASY. She's fighting them so hard again it's horrible, like we're back to square one. If she does nap it's max 35 mins on my shoulder or in the pushchair. A times of 2.10, 2, 1.45 in desperation. I've just put her in the basket for a nap A 1.40 because she was rubbing her eyes off and she's doing this strain squeal and clawing at the sides. I don't know whether to leave her or ssshhh pat or what. We had this this morning and last night. Eventually last night after PUPD she went off with ssshhh pat. This morning after escalating to crying I just held her instead.

I really need to get away from the sleeping on my shoulder because she's uncomfortable I can tell and I just think, well if went down you'd be so much more comfortable!

I'm doing a mini bedtime routine for each nap now too. Just close the curtains, read a short book with lovey and then put down to shhh pat. It works at night so maybe a truncated version as WD will help? Although, tbh, I don't think she doesn't know it's nap time and what's expected of her she just doesn't want to do it. In the middle of the night after a feed I am still putting her down awake and and she goes off without any shhh pat so I know she can do it.

I'm persevering with the 8am earliest nap and the 4.30pm sleep woken at 5.15. Usually this is her best sleep of the day though I do feel really mean waking her after only 15mins but bedtime can't get later I'm just so tired myself I need an hour to decompress before she wakes around 9.30.

[becj86]

I really think she might be fighting those naps due to UT, at least earlier in the day. Often that's the case when naps are rubbish all day and the last nap of the day is the best one. Average A times at 5 months are 2:15-2:30, so there's scope for increase if she can manage it. I may be tricky the first few days because she's used to shorter A times but give it a go - min. 2hr after a short nap too - you do need to reduce the A time after a short nap but usually not by much.

Its possible the upset is related to teething - have you tried baby paracetamol - 20min before nap time? That may help as it should last longer than teething gel.

Its possible she's in a growth spurt and needs a topup feed... I'm clutching at straws here, I'm sorry you're in a rough patch again

[ellieelmo]

Thank you. I appreciate it. Yes I have her some teething granuals last night which have a numbing effect. I was about to give her calpol but didn't want to mix too many things in her stomach? Maybe I am being a bit sensitive, just thought with the gripe water as well it might give her a tummy upset.

Last night she was up 4 times;

BT 7pm
S 7 - 9.10
E
S 9.40 - 10.40
E didn't feed initially as thought it could be wind / teeth. Gave her gel and did the tummy massage which helped. Then just lots of crying during PUPD. It had been two hours so I figured she could be hungry so fed her.
S 00.30 - 3.40
E
S 4 - 5.30
E
S 6 - 6.15

E 7.30
A 2hrs just
S 8.13 - 9.00 (put her down but she kicked during ssshhh pat then started whinging then crying so slept on my shoulder.

Just trying to get her down again now.
Yesterday I spent an hour getting her down for an independent nap with PUPD and she slept for 20mins before waking very upset and couldn't get her down again. She woke at 15.20. I must admit I didn't even try to get her having a cat nap, it was too much. So that might have contributed to a bad night, good old OT.

[becj86]

Yesterday I spent an hour getting her down for an independent nap with PUPD and she slept for 20mins before waking very upset and couldn't get her down again.

This is very likely overstimulation - PUPD can be very stimulating and for some babies, counterproductive so if you've another more effective way to get her to sleep, use that. PUPD is a method of last resort.

[ellieelmo]

​Hello!
Been a few weeks awol so thought I would post an update.

- NW are now 3-4 between 7-7. In all honesty I reckon two are true feeds and the other two digestive problems. I always try to resettle without nursing and fail almost every time.
- WU is slightly later than was at around 6am.
- Teething doesn't seem to be causing her much pain i.e. not the cause of NW
- Daytime naps are non existent or 1. Tuesday was one 10min nap after A 4hrs.
- Dd is so tired at bedtime her bath is super quick and no time for a relaxing tummy massage as she just wants to be asleep asap.
- Self settling seems to have stopped working in place of just bad crying
- We've been using a white noise machine but I don't know if it's doing anything, certainly not helping her to self settle. 
- Discovered that in order to get her to sleep when we're out I have to leave the house with the pushchair covered so she can't see me at all and she'll go off if I've timed it right at about A 2.15. Tried the same with the carrier but that only yields 25min naps whilst the pushchair will get me 1hr 10min if I keep pushing.
- At BT I nurse her to drowsy, wake her up by burping (don't get anything) and then ssshhhh pat to sleep. This is taking about an hour.
- The night wakenings started to be more frequent a two weeks ago and I just went with it as I knew there was a growth spurt around 6months but it's been 2 weeks now I'm worried it's a sleep association.
- She can now sit which I thought might also be a factor but I read these new developments should affect her sleep for 2-5days max?
- When we have a really rough day I try and bring BT earlier to say 6.30pm but that doesn't give her more sleep she just wakes up earlier. In any 12 hr night, she has a maximum of 9hrs, shes now averaging about 10/10.5 hrs in each 24.

I don't know what to do or what I'm asking for in this post just thought I'd post an update as if anyone is reading it's nicer to know if there was a solution!

Dd was 6months yesterday, we've been given the all clear to start BLW at the weekend which, judging by her constant bad tummy might make things even worse. I've changed my diet, started eating dairy again as I wondered if the bad tummy might be a lack of protein or friendly bacteria - didn't see any effect in she or I and it's been 10 days.

Well I guess I just have to keep on keeping on.

[becj86]

Hugs for the rough time, you've worked so hard xx Have a read of the reflux symptoms in the colic reflux and crying board... I suspect there's something else at play here when she simply won't sleep.

[ellieelmo]

Thank you, I will take a look though there is little to no crying tbh. She's so over stimulated when we go out it's super hard to get her to take any sleep but she doesn't cry just sort of chills in the carrier. If she's UT and I try to bounce her in the carrier or push with the cover up in the pushchair, then she gets cross. Her A at the moment is 2.10 which I know is kinda low but since she never has a restorative nap really I think that makes sense?

Yesterday she did a 1hr 10 nap in the pushchair (I've given up trying to get her to sleep in the basket) after A 2.11 woke at 15.07 but then wouldn't take a cat nap at 5pm. I brought BT forward but she was so tired I had to do a speedy bath and no book and then she woke 7 times between 7pm and 6am this morning. But each time she was put down drowsy but definitely awake (eyes open) and she sent her self to sleep within minutes. We're transitioning to cot from basket at the moment by the end of the week she should be in there proper.

 I've read that fighting that cat nap could signify a need to transition to 2 naps so I need to read up on this a bit to see if bring BT forward is the right solution until she can do longer A times.

Can I just check something re the NW? So last night:
20.00 - this was a burp, she fell asleep as I was burping her so I kind of expected this
21.11 - don't know what this was though I have a suspicion she was trying to get comfortable and the basket is too small now
22.25 - just a hug needed
23.20 - feed 1 side, fell asleep
1.20 - feed both sides
5.10 - feed
6.08 - WU

I've been trying to keep the first feed to no earlier than midnight as I think I know this is when it's a true feed. Shhh pat doesn't work for the resettles so I've been picking her up and just holding her. No bouncing but patting and shushing and she'll calm and I'll put her down drowsy. Am I creating a new prop? Or should I just not be worrying about that at the moment and just trying to get as much sleep into her as possible? Also, I'm planning on just riding this wave for another 6 weeks or so and then trying for independent nap sleep again - am I waiting too long? she's 26weeks (and has taken really well to solids btw!) so that would be 7.5 months. I go back to work when she's 10.5 months and we're trying to have her in nursery at 9.5months. Just thought maybe there's a specific board or thread about this...

[becj86]

Her A at the moment is 2.10 which I know is kinda low but since she never has a restorative nap really I think that makes sense?

Not really. Its a bit of a chicken/egg scenario really. She needs the longer A time to have a restorative nap but can't necessarily manage a long enough A time happily to get there. Sometimes you just have to push through the unhappy times to get to an appropriate A time so she can have good sleeps. She's 6mo now, yes? If so, she's probably pretty close to being able to go to ~3hr A time and drop the catnap so that might be part of the issue with getting her to take that nap.

I would probably say to push A times now and really try for independent sleep well before nursery. I think there's a 3-2 transition thread, not sure how active it is at the moment. You can certainly start a new thread if you want some new eyes on your situation

20.00 - this was a burp, she fell asleep as I was burping her so I kind of expected this 21.11 - don't know what this was though I have a suspicion she was trying to get comfortable and the basket is too small now

This is quite possibly just overtiredness - 4hr since she woke, that's reasonable.