FTM dd Overtired/ undertired?? 3mo averaging 8hrs in 24!! please help!

[ellieelmo]

Not sure if anyone is still following this thread but I thought I'd post a few developments...

Definitely an improvement in naps I think. I mean, now there are some and she falls asleep pretty quickly at A 1.40, I start WD at 1.30. Do you think that because this is working so much better that I may have finally got rid of all the chronic overtiredness running in the background? Gosh I hope so. Nighttimes can take a bit longer to put her to sleep so I start at 1.25 which is quite tight since her bath and massage and books can take a while after some play time, but it IS working much better. After a few minutes she'll do two or so yawns, then a kind of whine/groan for a bit before she drops off. Sometimes no crying!!! I've found that singing seems to be a distraction, so I'm humming the same tune over and over and it seems to work.

Night times are averaging, 8hrs per night, so still too little. Down at 7.45 (am working to bring this back to 7pm but the last nap of the day is happening too late at the moment). Today I've gently woken her from her 45mins cat nap at 5.30pm, hoping to get her down for 7/7.10pm. NF at around midnight, then 4am and then it gets a bit messy. After the NF at 4am she'll only sleep for another hour max so her WU is pretty much around 5.15 and she's not hungry she's just wide awake and won't go back down. I've tried a few things over the past week; leaving her to see what she does (just plays happily in her basket), rocking her to sleep (does not work, or she'll fall asleep and then as soon as I put her down wake up again), bringing her into bed with us (just plays happily). So, not sure what to do with this. I usually get her to sleep for another hour at 1.40.

She doesn't seem to be uncomfortable with wind or poo any more. I don't think it's what wakes her in the AM at 5.15ish? and she has two big feeds in the night before going back for a decent time? There have been a few nights when she's woken more frequently at night but I've kept the nursing's to 2 per night so as to cut down the unnecessary nursing to sleep - rocking her instead. Is that right? However there have also been a few times when she's woken unhappy and its like she was enjoying her sleep but something disturbed her - I'm not sure what. Typically this happens 1.50hrs into her night sleep. I rock her back to sleep. Sometimes she's quite cross so it can take up to 45mins to calm her and then put her down.

She's still doing a lot of hand gnawing and I'm not sure if its teething or a sleepy cue as it gets more intense when she's tired. Her sleep doesn't seem to have been affected by the insane heat here, which is good.

Stuff that isn't going so well:
i am still rocking and bouncing to sleep but as of this week have stopped nursing to drowsy/sleep successfully.
dd goes down fine for the night in her basket but I can't get her down for naps, she has to be held. If she's in the pushchair and I've stopped she'll wake at 40mins. If I'm on the sofa holding her she'll stir quite a bit and it's only really at 1.40 that she'll fall into a non fidgety sleep, and I typically wake her at 2.10. I pat her when she stirs and she settles. In the sling she'll still only do 20mins.

I need to research the HTTJ thing. Would that be applicable to just independent sleep? Because the motion of the pushchair or me holding her acts as a comfort to ease her transition? Putting her in her swaddle for naps didn't make any difference to her willingness to go down sadly. She's still startling quite a lot but the swaddle means it doesn't wake her. But when I do get her down for an nap on her own she'll startle awake, on Monday it was after 15mins.

We went in the car for the first time in 7 weeks at the weekend and she didn't sleep hardly at all, despite me timing it to coincide with A 1.40 coming to an end. When she does miss a nap like this, I just keep an eye on her sleepy signs and the clock and offer sleep when I see cues. Typically she will fall asleep in 10mins at A 1.10 or 1.20. She doesn't sleep for any less time following one of these shortened A times. Is this the right thing to do?

I'm not sure what to tackle next? Independent sleep? More night sleep? Later morning wake-ups? Getting rid of bouncing and rocking?!

[ellieelmo]

​Ok, so I read some other people's posts and saw that not wanting to go down is a sign of OT as it's easier for babies to transition when held? So I guess that means I still have some OT in the background D: how will I know when all that residual OT has gone?!

This was last night​:​

BT 18.20
S 17.25 - 02.02
E 02.02 - 02.17
S 02.25 - 4.16
E 04.16 - 04.35
Tried to get back to sleep after E but she got hiccups after winding. Put her down at 5.15, she woke smiling, down again at 5.30, she woke smiling so left her to play in her basket.
A 1hr 40
S 06.25 - 07.55

E ​08.10 - 08.20​
A 1hr 40
S 09.35 - 10.00 (​first ​WD 7mins) tried 3 times to ​put​ her down but she woke each time so let her sleep on my shoulder​. ​
S 10.20 - 10.55

E ​10.55 - 11.05​
A 1hr 50
S 12.35 - 13.21 couldn't extend. I guess this was at OT nap because of the interrupted nap earlier which meant when she finally slept at 10.20 it was actually A 2hr 25 which is way too long for her​. ​And also because of t​hat interrupted sleep as I tried to get her down this morning, her WD took longer 15mins, so by the time she ​actually fell asleep was OT​? ​Also on my shoulder.

E ​13.22 - 13.27​
A ​1hr 30
S 14.49 - 16.20 started WD at 1hr 20 because she was really cranky and kept rubbing her nose and eyes. I know this is a short A time and you said in one of your earlier posts not to go for short A times as I'll just get UT naps but I wasn't sure how to extend? She didn't wake happy, but I couldn't get her back to sleep.

E 16.20 - 16.45 I basically let her 'rest' at the breast, she wouldn't unlatch every time I tried. I didn't want to try for another nap as it would get too close to BT. What should I have done?

I also kept her going too long so the evening looked like this:

BT 18.00
​E​ 18.30 - 18.45
​A​ 2hr 40 I know.
​S just put her down at 19.25​. Started WD at 18.45 but she was a sorts of active, cooing, rubbing her eyes, burying her head in my neck... so I'm not sure how long she will stay down for tonight.

Basically I think the day deteriorated because of the super early WU and then subsequent OT naps. How could I have got back on track? Should I be working to bring BT even earlier to make up for the early WU so she is having a 12hr day instead of a 15hr day? I also know you said these short naps might improve once I push to A 2hrs but I don't know how to get there when she's super ready for sleep at 1hr 30.

Maybe I need to just keep APOP for the naps until I get to a more suitable A time for her age (18wks) and then work to tackle better nights?

I know I shouldn't be thinking about it but I'm sooo aware of the ticking clock, as in after 6months it'll be hard to change some of these bad habits.

[becj86]

S 17.25 - 02.02

This is a great stretch! This is a solid stretch of almost as much sleep as she was having in 24hr when you first posted.

E 04.16 - 04.35 Tried to get back to sleep after E but she got hiccups after winding. Put her down at 5.15, she woke smiling, down again at 5.30, she woke smiling so left her to play in her basket. A 1hr 40 S 06.25 - 07.55

This here I'd still call night with extended happy wakings rather than saying she got up for the day at 4:35 and had a 1:40 A time given that you about an hour trying to get her back to sleep.

S 12.35 - 13.21 couldn't extend.

This here is a 45min nap - classically UT or 4 month old cannot transition from cycle to next.

A 1hr 40 S 09.35 - 10.00 (​first ​WD 7mins) tried 3 times to ​put​ her down but she woke each time so let her sleep on my shoulder​. ​S 10.20 - 10.55

This I think might be UT too.

A ​1hr 30 S 14.49 - 16.20 started WD at 1hr 20 because she was really cranky and kept rubbing her nose and eyes. I know this is a short A time and you said in one of your earlier posts not to go for short A times as I'll just get UT naps but I wasn't sure how to extend? She didn't wake happy, but I couldn't get her back to sleep.

Its ok to reduce A times a bit if she's had a short nap, just don't start the day off with a short A time because that perpetuates the problem. This looks like a 1.5hr nap to me. Babies will not always wake happy, even if their routine is perfect. That's not necessarily a good yardstick for deciding if the nap was good. My son screamed when he woke if things were different in his room (ie. if I had been there when he fell asleep, he wasn't happy if I wasn't there when he woke.)

BT 18.00​E​ 18.30 - 18.45

What do you mean by BT here? BT to me is baby is being laid into bed for sleep having had pre-bed routine including feed.

I didn't want to try for another nap as it would get too close to BT. What should I have done?

I think that's reasonable. I think I'd have aimed to have her in bed asleep for the night at 6:30pm or done a catnap for say 30-45min at 6pm then aimed for asleep in bed at 8pm.

I know I shouldn't be thinking about it but I'm sooo aware of the ticking clock, as in after 6months it'll be hard to change some of these bad habits.

You're not working from a completely awful place though, you've made a lot of progress and you can take the long view so I think you'll be ok. Its not actually necessarily all difficult at 6 month or after that. I got DS from sleeping with props to independent sleep in a couple of weeks at 5 months (didn't find this website til then and I was in all sorts of trouble) and it was fine. Try not to work yourself up too much about that.

I suggest a plan going forward that looks a bit like this:
1. Assume that WU is around 7-8am, yk, the end of what you're currently calling your first nap.
2. If she's happy in bed, leave her if its in the small hours of the morning. Its so frustrating for you and for her and actually counterproductive for you to be trying to get her to sleep at that hour. If she's upset, attend to her of course but if she's happily lying in bed gurgling at 5am, leave her to it.
3. From that 7-8am WU, do 2hr A time then offer a nap. Offer it however you need to, to get her to sleep but I suspect you'll have some luck with shush/pat or similar in a familiar sleeping place like wherever she falls asleep at night.
4. Reduce A times if necessary to no less than 1:30 but preferably 1:45 if she's had a short nap. If she then takes a long nap, do 2hr A time thereafter.

[ellieelmo]

This is a great stretch! This is a solid stretch of almost as much sleep as she was having in 24hr when you first posted.

Major TYPO that should have said 19.25 - 02.20 *sad face*

This here is a 45min nap - classically UT or 4 month old cannot transition from cycle to next.

Is there a big difference between transitioning from one cycle to the next at night and in the day then?!

Its ok to reduce A times a bit if she's had a short nap

Ok cool! I think I need to do a shorter A time after the last nap and before BT.

What do you mean by BT here? BT to me is baby is being laid into bed for sleep having had pre-bed routine including feed.

Ahh, my mistake. I have been calling BT the bed time routine, so when I start the bath, feed, book routine. So in that example, I did all of that and rocking to sleep, between 18.00 - 19.25.

You're not working from a completely awful place though, you've made a lot of progress and you can take the long view so I think you'll be ok. Its not actually necessarily all difficult at 6 month or after that. I got DS from sleeping with props to independent sleep in a couple of weeks at 5 months (didn't find this website til then and I was in all sorts of trouble) and it was fine. Try not to work yourself up too much about that.

Thank you! I needed to hear that!

2. If she's happy in bed, leave her if its in the small hours of the morning. Its so frustrating for you and for her and actually counterproductive for you to be trying to get her to sleep at that hour. If she's upset, attend to her of course but if she's happily lying in bed gurgling at 5am, leave her to it.

Ok, yes. As you'll see from previous posts, it's just too much at that time putting her down twice and her waking smiling twice, I have to take 5 for myself and come back, but she is always really happy so yep, I'll leave her there.

Thanks for the plan of action. I will jump on it.

4. Reduce A times if necessary to no less than 1:30 but preferably 1:45 if she's had a short nap. If she then takes a long nap, do 2hr A time thereafter.

Ok. Wish I'd read this earlier..... just put her down for the night (A 1.45), I worked really hard to get her to have an almost 2hr nap this afternoon, lots of patting and resettling twice. That was a good? but interrupted nap, so perhaps I should have done A 2hrs. We'll see how long she's down for tonight.

She only had a short 25mins nap around 1pm and a 1hr nap 9-10am, after her usual 5.30am wake up so I'm thinking lots of OT floating around. Last night was the worst in about 6 weeks, she woke at 23.45 after 4.5hrs sleep and it wasn't until 2am that I finally gave in and brought her in bed with us where she comfort sucked for an hour before sleeping until 5.30am.

[becj86]

Major TYPO that should have said 19.25 - 02.20 *sad face*

You mean 20:20? 1 hr then...'

Is there a big difference between transitioning from one cycle to the next at night and in the day then?!

Yes, day and night sleep are different.

I worked really hard to get her to have an almost 2hr nap this afternoon, lots of patting and resettling twice.

SO a 1:30 nap at this age is as good as a 2hr nap. Try not to get too hung up on the 2hr length of nap with a 2hr A time in the 4hr EASY - its really just to make the clock work easier I think, can't recall many babies who magically sleep 2hr instead of 1.5 when they go to 2hr A times.

This may seem an odd question given the heat there at the moment is making news here... are you cooling her room too much and she's cold in the middle of the night?

[ellieelmo]

You mean 20:20?  1 hr then...'

No, it was until 02.20 - so almost 7hrs

Yes, day and night sleep are different.

Gah! Ok. So now I'm a bit confused as to what to tackle next. Whether to take another week of trying to get her to sleep as much as possible in the day in the hope that this works on the sleep debt / overtiredness overhang. That's what I did last week and it doesn't seem to have worked too well, one day she had 4hrs sleep in the day and a good ish night, today for example, she's had one 20min nap and two 30min naps since waking up at 3.30am. That was kind of the worst night ever, tbh.

We have appointments on Monday and Friday which I need to keep, but other than that her sleep can take absolute priority, so I might try do APOP (holding her) for another week and see what happens. Then, I need to look to independent sleep / teaching her how to link up her sleep cycles?

This may seem an odd question given the heat there at the moment is making news here... are you cooling her room too much and she's cold in the middle of the night?

Hmmm... I don't think so... It's still 21degrees in our bedroom and she's sleeping in her swaddle (just the arms part) to stop her from startling fully. One good thing, because it's been so hot we've had the windows open a lot and the builders are still working next door but she's really good at sleeping through the noise now, yay! Today I got her off to sleep in a really busy restaurant in the sling, but then as soon as 20mins passed she was wide awake again, sigh.

[becj86]

Today I got her off to sleep in a really busy restaurant in the sling, but then as soon as 20mins passed she was wide awake again, sigh.

This is likely overstimulation - hard to avoid in a restaurant

I think probably work on getting the routine down pat. I thinking you can try A times of ~2hr and see if you can get her reliably falling asleep at nap time. Once that's happening with APOP, then its much easier to work towards getting her to sleep more independently.

[ellieelmo]

Hmmm well, we thought things couldn't get worse...

The last few days have been really rough - max 30min naps with APOP and frequent night awakenings - 3 between 7.30pm and 5.30am. I think I know that the midnight ish wake is from hunger, but the 3am and 4am ones are certainly not but dd gets soooo cross if I just pick her up and bounce. If I leave her, as I have been doing at the 4.30am wake up until 6am, she's generally fine, just kicking around, cooing and babbling. So I am relaxing because I'm lying down but I'm not exactly relaxed or sleeping and I know she's tired as her babbling is punctuated with yawns. But as you said it is counterproductive me trying to get her back to sleep. But it means she's ready for a nap at 7.10am ish.

dd really cannot make it to A 2hrs. I tired really hard on saturday and sunday but she was just soooo upset. I did WD at 1.45 and she cried so hard I knew its because she wanted to be sleeping already. The rest of the week has really been out of kilter because 2 bad days at the weekend threw those nights off and the last few days have been worse than usual. I'm not sure what to do, go back to 1.45 or stick at 2hrs for a few more days as she might need time to settle in to it? She did one 40min nap in the pushchair and woke unhappy, I rushed home as couldn't settle her crying in the park. She cried the whole way back ~12mins or so, then when we got back I tried to bounce her as it was obvious she was still tired but she wasn't happy so I just walked around the garden with her a bit to calm her down and then we went inside again to play. But then she was really cranky and ready for another nap at A 1.25!

Monday and Wednesday night I bounced her to sleep and put her down but she work 20/25 mins later. I've found if she's woken up OT, if I pick her up her cries escalate really quickly to full volume so that's why I shhhh patted her (actually she doesn't seem to like the pat, I just had my hand on her tummy) and she did go to sleep but a few q's:

- How long should you shhhh pat through the crying until you should give up and pick her up? On Wednesday she was just whining/ tired moan with some periods of quiet and yawning, on Monday it was quite a bit of crying.
- On Tuesday night she went down with bouncing and stayed down until her midnight feed. So no shhh pat like Monday and Wednesday, is that classed as being inconsistent? Tonight she's gone down the same with no shhh pat again but if she wakes I will use it.
- On one of the BW threads about how to shhh pat is says if no sleep within 45mins to feed and start again, would you advise that in this situation?

 

[becj86]

I think I know that the midnight ish wake is from hunger, but the 3am and 4am ones are certainly not

Are you feeding at the 3am one? Now you're getting better stretches, you're possibly up against gas again with the 4/4:30 WU. Try lying back to feed at night if you're not already and really make the effort with the burping, esp. at 3am.

Ok, so 1:45 seems to be a good place to stick for now. You can always revisit extending the A time in smaller chunks of time, even 5min every couple of days if she's very sensitive to extra A time. 1:25 A time isn't unreasonable after a short nap.

I've found if she's woken up OT, if I pick her up her cries escalate really quickly to full volume so that's why I shhhh patted her (actually she doesn't seem to like the pat, I just had my hand on her tummy)

Great observation - and really good to see you adjusting shush/pat to her liking.

How long should you shhhh pat through the crying until you should give up and pick her up? On Wednesday she was just whining/ tired moan with some periods of quiet and yawning, on Monday it was quite a bit of crying.

It depends upon the cry - if she's mantra crying/moaning, keep helping her off to sleep. If she's distressed and sleep is really unlikely, its a bit pointless, yk?

On one of the BW threads about how to shhh pat is says if no sleep within 45mins to feed and start again, would you advise that in this situation?

This is more specific to naps than nights, I think. It tends to suit people who have significantly too short an A time better. 45min is a long time to be doing shush/pat with a crying baby too, so I tend not to recommend going for that long, especially when you know how long she typically takes to fall asleep now.

On Tuesday night she went down with bouncing and stayed down until her midnight feed. So no shhh pat like Monday and Wednesday, is that classed as being inconsistent? Tonight she's gone down the same with no shhh pat again but if she wakes I will use it.

No, you're using the same method of going to sleep for night sleep each day. Just one day,, she wasn't quite so OT or wasn't OS and stayed asleep.

[annesmama]

- How long should you shhhh pat through the crying until you should give up and pick her up?

I'm always curious about this. With my LO, I've found that if it's going to work, it's noticeable almost immediately (cries decrease in intensity, start getting further apart). It's like she figures out, "Ah! If I focus on that, I'll be able to sleep." If cries get worse or stay the same, I haven't found that sticking with it helps, although to be fair I can't stand doing it very long. I guess I don't like the idea of her crying herself till she's so tired she passes out - I wouldn't call that "working", you know?

[ellieelmo]

Are you feeding at the 3am one? Now you're getting better stretches, you're possibly up against gas again with the 4/4:30 WU. Try lying back to feed at night if you're not already and really make the effort with the burping, esp. at 3am.

I have been yes D: the 4.30am starts we've been having are killing me at the moment, I just can't bear to rock her or shush pat her back to sleep at that hour.

Last night was typical of how things are now:
BT 19.28
S 19.28 - 23.28
E 5mins!!!
S 23.35 - 01.55
E 15mins
S 02.15 - 04.33
Back rub to help with poo (didn't come)
S 05.34 - 06.21 settled with shhh pat took 30mins of tired moaning and bad crying like she was annoyed not to be asleep already (she does that a lot for naps now)

E 16mins (then pooped)
A 1.40
S 08.11 - 09.03
Usually at the 4.30am wake up I bring her into bed with us and she just comfort sucks until the poo comes. This morning I decided to try shhh pat in our bed as it was clear she wasn't hungry or the poo ready so I persevered and she slept for 50mins before waking truly hungry.

I really don't know what to do. I'm trying to APOP for naps (bounce and hold through out duration) and just concentrate on nights being a bit better. She's falling asleep pretty easily after her night feed but it's mostly rocking rather than ssshhh pat (which I only use if she wakes up after an hour or less). I am still trying to bring that BT earlier but the last nap of the day is still a (too) long one. So I'm going to try shhh pat instead of rocking tonight after her bath and doing the two NF but repeating shhh pat at 4.30am as I did this morning. I'll try and do it in her bed rather than bringing her into ours?

I've stopped with the infacol as I don't think it was doing anything.
WAAA I just want to see some progress!

[becj86]

Ok, I really think pushing those A times, most particularly the first one will help with the 4:30 waking and the length of that first nap and then hopefully should flow through the rest of the day. Just try an extra 5 min every 2 days and see if that helps her cope ok with the increase - she certainly seems sensitive to a 15min increase but these little ones should be ok.

You're in a cycle where the nights won't get much better til the days to and vice versa. If I look at that night, really you've an approx. 11hr night from 7:30 til 6:30. I think we can reasonably confidently call that long happy waking in the early hours one that is related to insufficient A time, especially the first.

It is good that she's getting a long nap in there somewhere and 7:30 isn't a bad BT unless its not working for you.

I think the reason you're getting a long nap in the afternoon is the little bit of extra tiredness she's building from the short A times and short nap through the day.

I'll try and do it in her bed rather than bringing her into ours?

Good plan - if you can stick it out. Hugs xx Up at that hour is a really time to make decisions when you really just want to be in your warm bed sleeping.

[ellieelmo]

Thank you for your reply.

It is good that she's getting a long nap in there somewhere and 7:30 isn't a bad BT unless its not working for you.

Well my thinking was that she goes down easiest at night and mostly stays down so why not try to get a bit more sleep out of her when she's most used to sleeping?

The last days have been quite bad, max 30min naps but the last two nights better?

Wednesday
BT 18.45 (gentle rocking to drowsy) shhhh pat worked, 25mins of mantra crying and then silence, I couldn't actually believe it.
S 19.08 - 23.11
E
S 23.30 - 01.10 - trapped wind. I did this new colic massage I learnt at baby massage and it worked a dream when she woke up
E
S 01.40 - 04.21
E - I held my breath this whole feed because this is usually the time her eyes will pop open and it's game over.
S 04.40 - 05.35 I got a lie in!!!
Then the rest of the day was just silly missed windows at 1.40 then 30mins sleeps on my shoulder.

Thursday, last night
BT 18.30
S 18.47 - 00.22 pretty sure she woke at 22.33 but I remember thinking 'nope, too soon' and lying there and next thing I knew it was 2hrs later so either I dreamt it or she was just making noises in her sleep or.... she self settled.

E
S 00.40 - 03.46
E thorough burp which woke her up way too much. I rocked her for 10mins and she babbled and blew raspberries (new trick) then I just put her down in her basket at 04.17 and got into bed myself. I just couldn't and if she was happy then I didn't need to worry right now. I turned on this shhhhh sound app. It took her 45mins but she did put herself to sleep. No crying at all, just babbling and then silence.
S 05.00 - 05.46

So what does it meannnnnnnnn? Is she learning to do it? It takes between 20 and 45 mins to work but that's at times when she knows it's time for sleep... should I be putting her down for naps at 1.20hr with a view to her being asleep at 1.40hrs or earlier? Shall I stick her and try and get shhh pat to work even better for nights before even stopping APOP for naps? Or am I being inconsistent by not doing naps and bedtime at the same time? But I remember you saying naps and BT are completely different.

[becj86]

Or am I being inconsistent by not doing naps and bedtime at the same time? But I remember you saying naps and BT are completely different.

Naps and BT are different. Ideally you would do them all the same but lets face it,  the naps will be gone one day

S 00.40 - 03.46 E thorough burp which woke her up way too much. I rocked her for 10mins and she babbled and blew raspberries (new trick) then I just put her down in her basket at 04.17 and got into bed myself. I just couldn't and if she was happy then I didn't need to worry right now. I turned on this shhhhh sound app. It took her 45mins but she did put herself to sleep. No crying at all, just babbling and then silence. S 05.00 - 05.46

This is great - she's happy, you're lying down and she's self-settling.

Is she learning to do it?

Yes, I think so. This bodes well for naps if you want to try even just one independent nap in the day.

should I be putting her down for naps at 1.20hr with a view to her being asleep at 1.40hrs or earlier?

No, in reality, A times should be more than that and she will probably complain about being put down at 1:20 A time because she's UT.

Can you write out a day and a night and we'll see what you can tweak. How old is LO now?

[ellieelmo]

I'm going to record today as we were at a party on Saturday night, first ever, and I knew the night would be rough and yesterday need more APOPing than ever so not a true picture of where we are I didn't think.

The self settling has worked twice more both times after the 2nd feed of the night. Also, easing trapped wind at the 2nd night feed seems to deliver and that early morning poop is now not so distressing for her.

New problem however, I'm not sure what time she's waking in the morning so having to rely on her sleepy cues to tell me that she's tired for her first nap. As soon as I've checked that she's asleep (4.15am this morning) I go to sleep and woke at 6.15 this morning to her babbling and playing but wasn't sure how long she'd been happily like that! Oops. I guess time will tell me what her average wake-up time could be no wind issues permitting.