Author Topic: Does my routine need to take a step back? (Read 5678 times)

LaraAndrea · « **on:** May 17, 2017, 11:04:45 am »

I have a lot if different threads going here discussing different yet connected issues with my LO's sleep.

With all of the recent changes to her routine and lack of success could we benefit from a step or 2 back? Bringing AT back down?

This all started when her first nap systematically shortened, so we responded by slowly increasing her AM AT. It worked, her AM naps improved (for a short time) all the while her 2nd nap got worse and worse. Since the AM increase, we could not seem to figure out the 2nd AT. Her sleepy cues were not reliable. She would seem OT at nap time with previously acceptable AT.

All of this has lead to 2 poor naps, cranky baby in the PM, early BT therefore an earlier wake up. The cycle continues...

I am very lost right now...

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #1 on:** May 17, 2017, 11:29:07 am »

Routine before things fell apart:
7AM wake BF
830 solids
10-1015 sleep (1.5-2h)
12:00 wake BF
130 solids
3-3:15 sleep (1.5-2h)
5:00 wake BF
7:00 BT routine
715-730 sleep
11:00 DF (being weaned currently)
Night feed 60% of time between 4-5 am

Now... A bit more sketchy
6:15-645 wake BF
8-830 solids
10:15-1045 (4h) sleep 1:15 (this was good 1.5-2h nap initially)
12:00 wake BF
130 solids
330 sleep (this has varied as we have tried to get a good nap... Often we have a false start where LO will not settle at all) eventually nap 30 min
430-500 wake BF
600-630 BT
DF currently at 945 (weaning)
Night feed between 4-5 (don't think she needs anymore)

Shiv52 · « **Reply #2 on:** May 21, 2017, 22:00:56 pm »

Hi there. I read on your other thread that you're away for the weekend. Check in when you're back and I'll come back and have a proper look at how things are now xx

jessmum46 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 23, 2017, 11:47:52 am »

Sending you some hugs - I hope you got a good break?

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #4 on:** May 24, 2017, 20:01:09 pm »

Thanks for the support everyone.

Our trip was pretty good, but I am back where I started with one semi short nap and one short nap... Early bedtime... Early wake, then I start each day further behind and the cycle continues. Bedtime keeps getting earlier and I still have OT baby a night who wakes early. I can't seem to catch up b/c she is no longer giving me any long naps.

I have tried to add a cat nap on the days when her 2nd nap ends really early. She refused to do a cat nap (unless I put her down as if early bedtime and I wake her after 40 mins and try bedtime later... I have been afraid to try that b/c it would make for a long day)

Today her first nap was 1:10 after (4hAT)
2nd nap 35min after (3:25 AT), she woke crying could not resettle like most OT naps, but she wakes cranky and rubbing her eyes.

I don't know what to do and I keep sliding further back from BT

jessmum46 · « **Reply #5 on:** May 25, 2017, 19:04:59 pm »

Just to remind us all how old is she now? What is your day looking like?

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #6 on:** May 25, 2017, 20:06:42 pm »

She is nearly 8 months now
Wake (recently) 5:00-530am
BF
Solids 1.5h later
BF top up 30-45 before nap
9-930 sleep (4hAT) this nap used to be 145-2h recently 1-1.25h
~10:30 wake
AT
Solids
~1:00 BF ~4h from top up
AT
~1:45 sleep (3.25-3.5 AT)
2:15-230 wake (will not resettle)
BF
AT
BF
530-6 BT (usually OT by this point)
930 DF (currently weaning)
If particularly OT she will usually wake in middle of night and play in crib for 30-60 min

Today was a bit better but it is only one day so I am not counting my chickens yet

Shiv52 · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2017, 23:12:17 pm »

Just in from work and off to bed but will
Pop on in the morning if Katherine doesn't get back first x

Shiv52 · « **Reply #8 on:** May 28, 2017, 20:35:33 pm »

I think you need to be careful with bedtimes. If you're doing early bedtime it should only be for a few nights to get things back on track unless you're LO tacks on and gives you a longer night. At this age if you are doing bed at 5.30/6 I do think you're looking at a 5/5.30 wake up?

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #9 on:** May 29, 2017, 11:09:18 am »

I am weary myself about 530 bedtime.

I am just not sure what to do when LO wakes at 5, goes back down at 9, wakes at 1015, goes back down at 145 but wakes at 215. We would try to push her a bit, but those are the days we ended up with the worst nights and wakes as early as 445.

We have made progress recently, she has woken up 6AM the last few days. She had an awful napping day yesterday though.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 29, 2017, 21:15:11 pm »

I think when things have gotten very very early sometimes you need to do a massive push all at once, a bit like you would do for DST. Basically just jump everything an hour later immmediately and ride out a few rough days of overtiredness. It sounds a bit extreme but I think can be a better way to get out of a too-early cycle than constant tweaking.

If that's too much I would at least push her morning nap later, regardless of WU time. A nap at 9am where she is allowed to sleep uncapped will most likely prolong that early start x

Shiv52 · « **Reply #11 on:** May 29, 2017, 21:41:54 pm »

I agree. I'd push the day forward for sure. Do a CN. Do what you can to get to a better bedtime and just do that for a couple of days x

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #12 on:** May 29, 2017, 21:53:17 pm »

Thanks!

We did push her AM nap Which worked pretty well. Unfortunately she would never give us a cap nap.

Our last couple days have begun to line up much better. Brief OT wake at night but we have made huge gains. I am expecting a 645-7 on BT tonight

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #13 on:** May 31, 2017, 11:06:30 am »

So my LO has been going down to bed between 7-730 for the past 3 days (yay).

Her naps have been ok, some good ones some short ones.

She is still waking between 5-515 AM

should I be resigned that this is her wake up time? Or are there other adjustments that can be made?

Shiv52 · « **Reply #14 on:** May 31, 2017, 11:14:11 am »

What is she doing when she wakes? I tended to feed and resettle. I always had a set time of 7am and before that I resettled as best I could.

Saying that you've only had the later bedtime for a few Days so may just take a few more to affect wake up.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #15 on:** May 31, 2017, 12:45:59 pm »

She wakes and talks, coos and plays. I did feed and hope she would resettle, but She just ramped up the playing, wide awake.

We only dropped the dreamfeed fully a few days ago, so there have been changes.

Prior to this sleep regression, she would occasionally wake around 5 play for 30 mins then go back to sleep till 7 ish. Her daytime sleep used to be better as well.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #16 on:** May 31, 2017, 18:42:30 pm »

Like Shiv said I would wait a few days to give her time to adjust to later bedtime, and then reassess if no joy. I'd also make sure the simple things are covered - make sure room is dark, no noise disturbing her etc. What do you do when she wakes? Do you get her up?

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #17 on:** May 31, 2017, 19:12:37 pm »

We won't likely make it to her later/desired bedtime tonight. I am going to have to push her to OT just to get her down for 630

If she is content I let her play on her own, this practice used to lead to falling asleep again, now after 45-60 min I will "wake" her officially. This is typically 6 AM these days.

We live in a construction zone full of all sorts of unwelcome sounds

this doesn't usually affect her mornings or night sleep but it has disturbed many a naps

jessmum46 · « **Reply #18 on:** June 03, 2017, 21:22:17 pm »

How did today go for you?

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #19 on:** June 03, 2017, 23:23:37 pm »

Her days have improved greatly, but her nights have gotten worse.

Wondering if teething could still be culprit? How long does it last? She cut her 2nd tooth just about a week ago.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #20 on:** June 04, 2017, 20:45:48 pm »

Question: what is more important total daytime sleep or preserving BT?

LO BT usually is 7-730, but I am finding that on many days she does not have time in the day for much of a 2nd nap. We end up capping her 2nd nap to preserve BT, but she would like to sleep longer and on those days her total daytime sleep is less than 2.5h.

Is it better to cap the nap to keep BT, or let her have better daytime sleep and possibly do BT later 745-8pm??

Her wakes times are not consistent yet, it may help some when/if that normalizes.

Shiv52 · « **Reply #21 on:** June 05, 2017, 08:31:50 am »

How is her form when you wake her?

I tended to go for longer day/shorter night when on two naps as mine were gremlins being woken up. We tended to have 11/11.5 nights which became 12/12.5 when we moved to one nap. The later bedtime didn't bother me though.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #22 on:** June 05, 2017, 11:02:36 am »

She is a bit dazed and confused when I wake her but once she wakes and becomes more alert she is happy.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #23 on:** June 05, 2017, 11:58:43 am »

I think it is very child-dependent, and I guess family-dependent! (I like the kids in bed by 7/7.30). DD did much better on less daytime sleep and a longer night, she was bit grumpy to wake but would come round fairly quickly with a cuddle and distraction. DS is horrible to wake, a total bear for the next hour or more and is therefore much better being allowed to nap, though we do get fairly early mornings as a result. DD eventually dropped her nap far earlier than DS so I think perhaps it's a case of trial and error and what fits with your family.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #24 on:** June 05, 2017, 14:38:15 pm »

She is pretty pleasant even when we wake her. Yesterday I split the difference let her sleep a bit more and woke her at 445 and put her down for 745.

Today will be a good comparison (assuming her day goes well *crosses fingers*) we got our ideal wake up time today, so if all goes within her current routine she has a bit more opportunity for daytime sleep before desired BT of 7-730.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #25 on:** June 05, 2017, 19:28:38 pm »

Fingers crossed!

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #26 on:** June 06, 2017, 11:14:51 am »

Her day was good, but I am still having these awful night wakes.

Shiv52 · « **Reply #27 on:** June 07, 2017, 21:04:38 pm »

What happens when she wakes? How do you resettle?

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #28 on:** June 07, 2017, 22:23:02 pm »

For some it only takes a touch to the back, little rub.

But on the worst couple days it required PU/cuddles, Tylenol (as it seems like teething may have been part of the problem).

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #29 on:** June 09, 2017, 19:54:52 pm »

So much for my good days. We had a nice (short but nice) run. She is back to fighting her 2nd nap for the past 2 days.

I get that they are babies... They don't read the books that we do, they don't follow some plan, or at least not one that we know of. But this is so frustrating!!

I think it is ridiculous that they say babies of this age need avg 14-16h sleep. How do they figure that out? Between teething and developmental milestones, does anybody have an 8month old who sleeps that much (give or take a couple days)

Rant over...

Shiv52 · « **Reply #30 on:** June 09, 2017, 20:03:18 pm »

Lol. I know. I always think I'm getting somewhere then right back to the start.

What A time are you working off? I wonder as you had a few settled days did OT settle and A times
Need a gentle push.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #31 on:** June 09, 2017, 20:16:26 pm »

4h in the AM
315/325 for 2nd AT the last 2days
3h before bed

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #32 on:** June 10, 2017, 20:07:24 pm »

The last time she started fighting her 2nd nap it preceded her first 2 teeth coming through. Could her next ones be coming already??

Shiv52 · « **Reply #33 on:** June 11, 2017, 07:42:41 am »

If she's handling 4 hours in the morning and having a decent nap then maybe she needs some more after that. Can you just post your day?

How is she for self settling?

And yes those teeth just keep coming!

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #34 on:** June 11, 2017, 11:29:19 am »

630 wake (recently she has had some EW 530-615)
645 BF
815 solids
945 BF top up
1030 sleep
12:00 wake
1230 solids
145 BF
315-330 sleep (this used to be ~60-90 min, depending on first nap. Total day sleep usually 2.5-3h)
*Now she is fighting and won't settle... APOP is often required
430-445 wake BF
600 solids
730 BF and BT

*Some random crying at night. Eyes closed/asleep... Dreaming?

*Normally she self settles for naps and bed, so when she doesn't within 10-15 min I know there is trouble

jessmum46 · « **Reply #35 on:** June 11, 2017, 20:06:52 pm »

When we had a similar routine I did a longer second A time (my LO would always fight if UT) and then a shorter last A - so something like:

6.30 WU
!0.30-12 nap
4-4.45 nap
BT 7/7.15ish

Eventually it even went to a 4.5h second A time with second nap at 4.30-5ish and kept with BT at 7/7.15pm.

Worth a try?

Shiv52 · « **Reply #36 on:** June 12, 2017, 08:29:08 am »

I agree that you may need that 4 hour a time to get a second nap.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #37 on:** June 12, 2017, 10:53:45 am »

Quote from: jessmum46 on June 11, 2017, 20:06:52 pm

6.30 WU
!0.30-12 nap
4-4.45 nap
BT 7/7.15ish

Eventually it even went to a 4.5h second A time with second nap at 4.30-5ish and kept with BT at 7/7.15pm.

Worth a try?

Yes... Worth a try.

I am finding that her AM AT is creeping up too.

How old was your LO when they transitioned to 1 nap? At this rate I am going to run out of time in the day soon.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #38 on:** June 12, 2017, 14:03:25 pm »

I think we started with 1 nap days at 10 months, it was messy for a while then probably settled on one nap at about 13 months x

Shiv52 · « **Reply #39 on:** June 12, 2017, 18:39:04 pm »

We were about 11 months and fully on one nap by 1yo. My DD3 would ideally be on one nap but I have to wake her for school runs so it doesn't often work out. So annoying. I miss the days of one baby and a 2.5 hour nap in the middle of the day! I watched the box set of Buffy the vampire slayer 😂

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #40 on:** June 12, 2017, 23:32:54 pm »

I also find that my LO is particular about activity level during AT. She is very active. If I so much as put her in bouncer chair to take shower, or in stroller for a walk etc. She can be UT at regular nap times.

It is helpful when she has early wakes though, easier to get back on track.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #41 on:** June 13, 2017, 05:19:24 am »

DD was very similar, we had to avoid full A times in the car/pushchair when we could or we'd inevitably get a bad nap afterwards.

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #42 on:** June 19, 2017, 20:27:49 pm »

Quote from: jessmum46 on June 11, 2017, 20:06:52 pm

When we had a similar routine I did a longer second A time (my LO would always fight if UT) and then a shorter last A - so something like:

6.30 WU
!0.30-12 nap
4-4.45 nap
BT 7/7.15ish

Eventually it even went to a 4.5h second A time with second nap at 4.30-5ish and kept with BT at 7/7.15p

Today is looking almost exactly like your above example. This is our new normal, for now (when she has a good night)

I know it is too early for 2-1 transition, but I also know that the actual transition can take a long time.

My LO has been increasing her AM and PM AT at a pretty steady rate. Soon she will be running out of time in her day.

Looking at your suggestion and at the 2-1 board I am wondering how best to move fwd as her AT increases.

Right now I am capping her AM nap at 1:45 and hoping for 45-60 PM nap. This gets us to bed around 715-730 and up between 6 and 630 (when the stars are all aligned of course)

Thinking of the inevitable 2-1 transition coming up would it be best if I did not cap the AM nap and allow the PM nap to naturally go later and shorter (short AT before bed)?

Or

Should I cap the AM nap further (90 min) to get a bit of time back and possible longer PM nap?

My instincts say not to fight a natural transition. But if there is one thing being a new mom has taught me, your instincts are not very reliable haha.

jessmum46 · « **Reply #43 on:** June 21, 2017, 19:15:31 pm »

I went for uncapped morning nap and later/shorter pm nap until we hit pm nap refusal. At that point we kind of just rode it out with a set nap time , but sometimes switching to a short am catnap and having a longer pm nap can help you hold on to two naps for longer which can make the transition a little easier x

LaraAndrea · « **Reply #44 on:** June 22, 2017, 19:53:25 pm »

Quote from: jessmum46 on June 21, 2017, 19:15:31 pm

I went for uncapped morning nap and later/shorter pm nap until we hit pm nap refusal. At that point we kind of just rode it out with a set nap time

As everything got later in day how late (time of day) would you let the PM nap go? With a 715-730 BT

jessmum46 · « **Reply #45 on:** June 24, 2017, 16:53:45 pm »

Slightly depended but typical would have been 45 mins or so starting at about 4-4.30pm, I think if we got a nap starting 4.30-5 I would have done maybe 30 mins?

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Author Topic: Does my routine need to take a step back? (Read 5678 times)