EWU for ~2 Months, tried several things...thoughts?

[KYKatydid]

Hi All,

DS is 22 months and he's been waking up between 4:45 and 5:30 for a couple months now, favoring 5/5:15.

Here is what we have tried:

1. We pushed his BT later as one of the first things in hopes he'd make it up in the AM, no success.

2. Wake to sleep about 30-45 mins before his 5:00/5:15 wake up for a week with inching towards 5:40, and now back to 4:45-5:15

3. Shortened his nap from ~2-2.5 hours to 1.5, we did this somewhat gradual.

4. Back to W2S with no success this week except 1 night. He's also very touchy during this time. Cracking the door will sometimes wake him up too much.

He has started fussing more at BT but we started potty training so I'm wondering if that's a culprit for long wind down?

So his current schedule on average is:

WU 5:15
N 1:15-2:45
BT: ~7:45

So that's 9.5 hours at night, and 1.5 day for a total of 11 hours.

Hoping an outside perspective and wisdom will have a brilliant idea! You all have always been so helpful and I'm forever grateful for this forum

[ginger428]

Hi there and welcome back!

How long did you try 1. And 3. ?
Are there molars about to poke through?
How is he before naptime- he handles the long A time well?

This is so tricky. For us, a 9.5 hr night meant a little earlier nap time bc he couldn't handle the long morning A time on that short of a night and needed/wanted a longer nap. But  a nap of 1.5 hrs almost always meant a shorter night, and we even ended up with 10.5 total sleep at times. It worked out better after his 2nd birthday when molars were finally through.

DS could have accumulated some OT so he may need an earlier naptime for those 515 wake ups for just 1-2 days. When I can here for help with this, I was advised not to lengthen the nap at all for catch ups but I did do it once in a while when my DS could not function and was a mess.

[KYKatydid]

Hi! Thank you for your reply!

To answer your questions:

We moved his BT from 7 to 8 about 2 months ago; as that was one of the first things advised here.

He has been on his 1.5 hour nap schedule for around a month, give or take. This was also advised to us as another option.

I'm not seeing molars but they take FOREVER and he's a bit of a wimpy teether, bless him. So he very well could have molars coming, and the thought did cross my mind!

In regard to him handling those EWUs and his nap being at 1, he would happily go down at 12. He's very slightly on the spirited side, so he's always been happy to nap earlier in the day, but we pushed that several months ago to help lengthen his naps. How ironic that I'm now shortening

He would also nap longer than 1.5 if I let him. The past two days, however, he has woken up at that 1.5 hour mark on his own so I'm sure it's becoming habit. Not saying that's bad, just an observation.

I was reading on someone else's post about an earlier bed for a similar situation and how that may help "reset" DS  bc of being OT. Thoughts on this? He does well with about 5 hours between when he wakes up from his nap and BT. Or would nap be better since that's what he's craving more? I'm happy to experiment just curious your opinion! And for how long should we give it a go?

Thank you again!!

[ginger428]

I think the early BT is a good idea.  I forgot to mention that around this age, 14 hr days are typical... so if he's up at 5:15, then BT at 7:15.  Of course we're trying to shift his schedule later by 45-1 hr or so, so that is the long term goal. It is definitely worth a shot to get him caught up with an early BT. What was his avg total sleep/24 hr?

Those pesky molars, right? If he's not waking in the middle of the night for discomfort, the pain/pressure is probably not too bad. That 4-6am hr is a light sleep period so it's typical to wake easily.  There could be other factors that is causing his early waking...are there any noises or temperature changes around 5 that started a couple months ago? When he wakes around 5, is he fussing or happy?

How about this for 2 days to get him caught up on sleep-
WU 5:15
NAP 12:45-2:15
BT 7:15

Then switch to this for 2 days to work toward a later nap (which helps push mornings out), and a later BT-
WU 5:15
NAP 1:00-2:30 (1.30)
BT 7:30

Then this for another couple days if WU's are not improving in order to see if reducing the nap further is necessary-
WU ?
NAP 1:15-2:30 (1.15)
BT 7:30

With the ultimate goal to be-
WU 6:00
NAP 1:15-2:30 (1.15)
BT 8:00

Whenever we had a nap at this age, his nights were short.  If his morning wake up time improves but you would like longer nights, you'll need to shorten naps by 15 mins or so at a time and reassess his nights. 

My son only required about 11 hrs of total sleep, so depending what I wanted his nights to be, I had to cut back on his nap length significantly.  If he starts fighting BT even through all the routine tweaks, consider shortening his nap again to 1 hr. He will be tired during the day at first, but they do transfer the sleep to night if you give it some time.  My son now sleeps 11 hrs straight with no nap- something I thought could never happen.  If he naps at all, it's back to 9-10 hrs a night. Usually closer to 9.

[KYKatydid]

Hi!,

Thank you so much for your detailed response! He gets about 11 hours total for the day with how things are going.

We were dealing with a lot of anxiety back in March because we had gone away for 9 days and my mom watched him. We had pretty much moved past that with bedtimes back to "normal" and naps and WUs normal. And then WUs got earlier and earlier so I'm not sure!

I did not picture naps being so short at this age. I was just getting used to him napping two hours 

But he's changing obviously! We will give the schedule you listed below a try and I'll keep you posted. You've been such a tremendous help! Thank you! 

[KYKatydid]

Oh forgot to say he wakes up crabby and MAD! That's why I'm thinking it's just too early!

[ginger428]

yes, probably a bit early for him. Probably bc the night was short- my DS is crabby with less than 10 hrs a night.

Keep us posted! Hope it resolves asap!

[KYKatydid]

We're  still plugging away! We weren't able to start right away after this post because of vacation, and that's not the time to start sleep changes, ha! We've moved to him waking between 5:25-5:45, and he will often play contentedly in his crib for 10-15 mins. Our current schedule is:

WU:~5:30
Nap: 1:15-2:30
BT: 8

He is pretty darn miserable and super hard to wake from that 1hr 15 min nap and is a crab apple a good bit of the afternoon. We've been doing that length for a few days now so we are trying a one hour nap for a few days to see! I'll keep you posted. Thanks again

[ginger428]

Is 8 when he closed his eyes or when you put him down?

I would try for eyes closed at 7:30, as he's building OT.

[KYKatydid]

8 is eyes closed, our routine starts at 7:30.

Since we cut his nap to 1 hour he woke up at 5:50 Tuesday AM and 5:40 Wednesday AM

I do think he would happily shut his eyes  at 7:30 so I'll give it a shot! Should we just jump to 7:30 or do 7:45 and see and then 7:30?

Thanks so much

[jessmum46]

Just to chip in and offer another/different perspective.  Just wondered if you had thought about other things like light (are you using blackouts?), noise, and using a gro clock or similar?  And also I wonder what you are doing when he wakes?  Do you just get him up?  One of the big factors in setting a daily rhythm is light exposure so I would keep him in as near pitch-dark as you can until an acceptable WU time.  For us here in the bad days of EW it was 6am, now never before 6.30am. 

All children are different but mine would have been a total and utter mess on a 14h day....most routines I've seen here have a somewhat shorter day, I would say maxing out at about 13h.  I would give some thought to trying a super-early bedtime or allowing some uncapped naps for a while to allow catch-up.  Hope this isn't too confusing and contradictory but my feeling is if you've tested out the UT theory for a good while and seen no real progress, you need to go the other way x

[KYKatydid]

Hi to you both!,

So sorry for the delay...vacation (which, I don't ever expect to stay super on schedule!), and then recovering from vacation, only to go on vacation here in a couple days with the other side of family...oh boy!

@Jessmum46:

To answer your questions

Lights: Yes, we use black outs, we actually use painter's tape to seal up the sides of the curtains because light was seeping from the sides, and that was helpful some! He still has a night light, as he doesn't like total darkness.

Noise: We use a sound machine at night and during naps. I use it quieter at night, but am willing to make it louder (albeit, I'm not a huge fan of white noise, but this kid may need it for longer than I hoped!) We are all sleeping at the times he wakes up, so no noise in the house, and not really any that early outside.

Gro Clock: We had been using music on an alarm clock, and he knew for awhile, when the music (classical) comes on, it's time to get up and out of his crib. It's just extremely hard when he's up at 4:45 (or sometimes earlier) to get him anywhere close (6AM). I know baby steps on this approach, but his wake up time varies SO much, it's hard for me to know when to set it for, with out risking waking him up (this has happened...). Thoughts on this?

Wake ups: I try and ride it out more than DH, but if he wakes up say...4:45, I try my best to stay in there with him (as he's SUPER unhappy and needs the support) until late as possible. If he's a blubbering mess, and is inconsolable, I'll get him up. He usually lasts a good 20-30 minutes. So also not sure what to do here...as it's MISERABLE for all. Insight?

He has always been an early chicky, but anytime before 6AM is not acceptable in my book, and really I don't think good for him.

With your post in mind on vacation, we had several uncapped naps, and during this week in between vacation, with bed time between 7:30 and 8. No affect at all, he still wakes up between 4:30 and 5:30, with more towards 5:00/5:15 these days.

I'm all up for trying things for a little while to see if there is improvement. Thus far, the 1 hour nap, with BT between 7:30 and 8:00 has pushed us closer to 5:45/6A wakes ups, but it DOES make me nervous for him to have such a short night, short naps, long day...I am a bit confused about what to do

I appreciate your response and willingness to give advice!

[jessmum46]

Doesn't sound like noise or the light is a particular issue here really.  I think I would give some thought to changing to a lights on style timer rather than music on though, just thinking music on may be a bit stimulating and really does run the risk of waking him in a way a subtle light probably doesn't.  He's a good age to introduce it

With the wake-ups I would say you and DH need to be on the same page really, EWs are so hard to crack that you want any effort you are putting in to be worth it.  I would set a 'reasonable' time that he is not allowed out of his room before (fine for you to be in there if needed) and set the lights on/clock for that time.  If 5/5.15 is typical wake time, set it for 5.15 to start with.  You do whatever it takes to keep him in the room in the dark until the light comes on, at which point you pretty much throw a party!  If he can wait for it himself so much the better, make a massive fuss of him.  And then you can start to creep the time later to a properly reasonable time. 

Could you just quickly post his WU, nap and BT now?

[KYKatydid]

Thank you kindly for your response!

We just got back from vacation. He would wake up in that time zone (1 hour earlier) between 5:30 and 6. A couple times 5:15. I honestly didn't fuss much about naps. A couple too short and most between 1.5-2 hours.

Our schedule before all that was as follows:

WU: 5:15-5:40 (most 5:15-5:30)
N: 1 or 1:15, and nap I'm not sure on length. I'm thinking 1-1:15 is best?
BT: 7:30 or 8:00

Yes light is much more subtle. Alarm clock was free so I thought I would give it a go! !

He woke up at 5 this AM and was a mess, screaming for me, but it was DH's morning, so he kept him in there for about 5 mins, and we talked and will increase the time slowly that he starts in there. I'll look at a light clock! Thanks again

[KYKatydid]

I ordered the clock, which will hopefully be here soon!

He has been waking up at 5:30 and will sit in my loan until 6. But DH he is a hot mess with, so we're trying to sort that out! As you noted: being on the same page is essential.

[jessmum46]

How are you doing?

[KYKatydid]

Hi All,

Wanted to update/have more questions (of course...!)

DS understands that the when the clock light comes on/is green, that means that we will come get him, and it's time to "start the day". He will whine for the light until it comes on, often. Ha...!

However, he had gotten worse and worse, more "fearful" sounding with his screams, very anxious when he would wake up before the green light came on.

I decided to stay in his room for three days, as I felt it was anxiety related (for whatever reason). He progressed to 5:30 WU after 3 days, and at that point my husband slept in his room so I could get a break (no NWs with me, thankfully). He was a mess, and was not happy, promptly started waking up at 4:30/4:45 with DH. A couple NWs too. Very restless.

I decided to try again, and it has been WU b/w 4:45 and 5:00, with steady WU at 5 the past three days with me. I feel "stuck". We're all exhausted.

We absolutley do not get out of bed until the green light comes on.

I am (this week) being MUCH more strict with nap length (we were both sick last week and I let it "slide"). With his nap being no more than 1.5 hours.

Current Schedule:

WU: 5
Nap: 1-1:30
BT: 7:30/8:00, more towards 8

He is starting "school" in a little over a week. And of course they have him on a different schedule. This will be his new schedule:

WU: (Goal=6AM)
N: About 12-2 (his schedule says storytime/rest, so that's why I say about 12. I also expect him to be restless at school for a few days)
BT:

He is in school 3x a week (MWTH), and obviously I want the same schedule at home as well as at school. We've been having these crazy early wakings since end of March, and we feel quite overwhelmed with what to do to "crack it". He's a stubborn bug.

[KYKatydid]

@Jessmum46. I just saw that you checked in with me, thanks for that! Sorry for the delayed response. See above

[jessmum46]

I really think that over tiredness could be a factor here.  He is having very little sleep overall and a super-short night, from which he is waking unhappy by the sounds of things.  Could you try an early nap up to 1.5h, then a super-early bedtime?  I'm just thinking if say you put him to bed for 6/6.30pm and he sleeps his typical 8.5-9h, then he will wake up at 3am - hopefully he should be able to resettle at that hour even if it takes a while, and you might get a later wake-up, or at least a longer night and a bit of catch-up.  Do you think it's worth a try?

[KYKatydid]

 Thanks for your reply! I'm always up for trying something. We moved his nap to 12 instead of one to get him on track for school. We will try for very early bedtime.  How many days do you think we should put him to bed early?  Three or so days? I  know sometimes it takes a few days to see if something is actually working.

[KYKatydid]

Gracious, we're going on almost 6 months of this EWU. Feeling pretty desperate at this point...

Current changes:
-We recently tried WTS again for about four days w/o much luck.
-We have been keeping with his clock light coming on a couple minutes after his typical 5AM WU, but haven't had success with it moving his WU.

Thoughts:
Last night (for what ever reason) DS was extremely restless, and very anxious starting about 2AM. He would sleep about 10 minutes and wake up screaming, and repeat cycle for nearly an hour.

I decided to sleep in the recliner in his room out of desperation, and he woke up I think two or three more times, but settled with a quick "shh!", barely enough to wake me up.

Could all this be more anxiety related? That it potentially hasn't been resolved since our trip this March? We were away from him for 9 days.

We have slept in his room for 3 day periods since then, with his EWU creeping back a little while after we left his room until we were back to 4:30-5A WU.

I know Tracy did mention for "some cases" she would sleep in baby's room until X issue was resolved (anxiety, etc). Could this be one those times? I obviously don't want to create a habit. We have done sleeping and slow fade with great success in the past (before our trip), just wondering if this trip was particularly traumatic?

And we did very early bed for about a week. (Asleep (eyes closed) b/w 6:30 and 7:00)

Current schedule I can't really modify, as he is in school 3x/week and I can't modify that. We echo the school schedule at home.

WU: 5:00 (He has been like this quite consistently lately)
N:12:15 (approximately)-2:00
BT: 7:30

[jessmum46]

I know we've talked before about earlier bedtime but when you tried it did he still wake at the same time i.e. a longer nights sleep/more sleep overall?

Remind me - does he have all his teeth yet?

Routine wise is he woken up from his naps or is that his natural nap length?

I'm not sure about whether the trip is the issue - it may have started as that but several months down the line there has to be something else perpetuating it...how are you responding at the early waking now?

[KYKatydid]

Hi Again!,

With his earlier bed: He woke up at the same time for a bit, and then got earlier.
Teeth: His molars are still working his way through and I do know they bother him at times.
Routine: He is woken up at the 1.5 hr mark at home and school. With school it's 1.5 hrs to 1.75 hrs
Waking response: He had actually been improving for awhile. Waking more at the 5:30 mark. I have been very consistent if he wakes up before his light and saying "it's still night night time. Mommy is going back to bed, and you need to go back to bed" and waiting in the hall.

He does have bouts of hysteria where he wakes up like he had a bad dream. Just full on screaming and horribly so. Usually those days are earlier wake up. Like 4:40 this morning. DH had him wait until 5 to get out of bed and comforted with voice.

Not sure if any of that provides insight? You are right in that something is perpetuating it...

[jessmum46]

Have you tried uncapped naps at all??

[KYKatydid]

Yes, we did back in July. The hard bit is that he can't have uncapped at school. I have always thought consistency is important but would it be different in this case? He's in school M, W, TH.

[KYKatydid]

Also, similar to early bedtime that uncapped worked for a bit and then he reverted back to EWU.

[jessmum46]

I would offer uncapped at home to allow for catch-up.  We went though a phase with DD of max 1h naps at nursery and up to 2-3h at home.  Consistency in terms of nap length wasn't so important as consistency in timing if that makes sense.  You may reach a point where you recognise you need to cap the home naps as well, but they may not need to be capped so short as the ones at nursery

[KYKatydid]

Yes, that does make sense. I’ll for sure give it a try! Thank you for your thoughts.  He was fussy with a little ear ache yesterday and napped poorly. So he was eyes closed last night at 6:30 and woke up around 6:10. I was shocked. 

[jessmum46]

Hope he feels better soon - but yay for sleep!!

[KYKatydid]

Update: I just let him nap uncapped this past week while he was sick and he woke up earlier and earlier over time with back to 4:30/5:00.

He has been in school all this week. He slept into 5:40 Tuesday morning after school on Monday. I let him nap uncapped Tuesday and he woke up at 5. School nap yesterday and he woke up at 4:30 this morning.

[jessmum46]

It's always tricky with illness getting the balance of enough vs too much sleep.  I'm guessing he has been getting better?  What nap lengths were you doing before the illness?  Perhaps he does need it capped a bit at home now he's recovered?

[KYKatydid]

He’s all better, and has been for a little bit praise God! We had our time change and that had not been fun 😰 We pushed his bed time by 20 minutes over a few days since he’s just so tired but bedtime. He’s moved on wake up to 4:45 the past couple days from 3:45 last Sunday. Phew! But bed is still 7:30/7:45. We did uncapped naps this week too. We don’t leave his room until 5 and are slowly moving breakfast (5:45 this morning). Capped nap at home might be good. He will sleep three hours uncapped so he needs more sleep overnight than he’s getting poor thing. But so do mama and daddy 😂

[jessmum46]

Just wondering (bit radical) but since you've had success shifting his WU with a later bedtime, is there any merit at all in pushing your bedtime another 1-2 hours later to just get a decent WU time?  May maximise sleep for you all?  At least then you could work on dropping/capping the nap and bringing BT forwards?