16 week old still refuses a bottle!

[SpiritedLIttleOne]

Hello,

My 16wo is EBF. She had a tongue tie release done on three separate occasions and had significant issues with latching so I avoided bottles a paci until she was 8/9 weeks. She point blank refuses a paci but have fed from a bottle twice before. She hated it. Screamed and screamed. My partner tried to feed her using one she wouldn't have it. I've tried different bottles, the milk at different temperatures, defrosted milk, milk that's only been refrigerated, room temp milk and even straight after being expressed. We've tried different times of the day - before and after feeds. I've also tried making the teat smell like me.

I'm worried that her earlier experiences have completely put her off. I'd love to be able to go out for the evening with friends, but at the moment need to be home for BT feed and DF!

Can you help me?

[SpiritedLIttleOne]

Hi again,

I posted the above on 23rd hoping for some help, but as my partner is a teacher and it's half term we thought we give it a go following advice from the baby whisperer book.

We've been offering the bottle each hour as suggested. It's 12:30 and there have been two refusals so far. She's currently not eaten for 5.5 hours. We are prepared for a hunger strike, but a couple of questions. How long do I leave it before offering the breast again? She's 17 weeks & around 14lbs (it's been a month since she was last weighed).

The book advises that we must stop if she cries to avoid negative association. In our nativity we previously (8weeks ago) persisted through tears which will not have helped. What would you suggest we do if she is crying as soon as she's offered the bottle, before it even touches her lips? It seems if we do this every hour and the bottle never touches her lips - she won't be learning to take a bottle, she's just getting more hungry!

Once breast milk has been heated, how long before we have to waste the milk? I've seen and heard conflicting information.

Your help would be massively appreciated. Thank you!

[Lolly]

Hi sorry your first post was missed - I thought I'd moved it over to breastfeeding for you - obviously not, apologies!!

First thing, don't with hold the breast, this is her only source of food so even though you are trying to get her to take the bottle you still need to feed her if she refuses. I *think* (no breast feeding here so no direct experience) current advice is to try the bottle for a few mins but if she refuses then to go ahead and breastfeed her and try again at the next feed time. Do you have milk dripping from the teat before it gets near her mouth so she knows there is milk in it?

Have you seen these links? https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=178500.0

Hopefully someone with more knowledge of breastfeeding will be able to help.

Laura

[Shiv52]

The advice in the books is outdated and we hope Tracey would have updated her advice based on current research.

As Lolly says definitely don't withhold milk. I'd try the bottle and if she doesn't take it just feed her yourself.

What are your plans? Are you just wanting baby to take a bottle occasionally or are you wanting to move to bottles? 

Hugs xx. I'm on my third baby and all bottle refusers!!!

[Katet]

My DS2 didn't ever take the bottle, but at 4mo I had to go to a function that meant I was away from home for 6hours in the day & would mean missing 2 feeds, what we found worked was DS2 actually took a sippy cup/ spoon combination - I decided to try that after my Mum told me that she had me & my siblings starting to take from cups at 4mo.  So I found a sippy cup that I could take a valve out of & he sort of had it drip onto his mouth.  Then gradually by the time he was 6mo he was taking a mid morning feed from a sippy cup - thus didn't ever use a bottle.

[*Ali*]

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=173309.0 This is another useful link about getting EBF babies to take a bottle.

My first 2 never really took one so I was determined my third would. At 4mo we started giving a bottle every night at BT. She didn't like it and cried and refused initially. I found the best thing to do was to walk around with her in a cradle hold turned slightly way from me. I'd jog her slightly up and down and shush her to distract her then just hold the bottle teat resting lightly on her bottom lip or just near it. Every now and then I'd try to put the bottle into her mouth. If she rejected it I'd pull the teat away and resettle then try again. If she started sucking I'd just carry on with the jogging and shusing while she drank. I also held the bottle so it wasn't too upright so she had to work for the milk more like breastfeeding. Maybe Google paced feeding which is a way of giving  bottle that more closely reflects BFing. If she was still crying after 5 minutes I just fed her from the breast. We also took a break for 10 days when it seemed she was getting upset at the sight of the bottle at the beginning. That really made a difference actually.

You could also try cup feeding with an open cup.

[SpiritedLIttleOne]

Thank you for all your tips

We followed the advice in the book surrounding routines and various re/settling techniques etc., which all seemed to have improved things for us and so followed the advice about introducing a bottle. As up to date research confirms, trying the bottle every hour and subsequently missing a feed didn't go down too well! I'm hoping we haven't created any negative associations there! 

Since it was really stressful for LO and for my partner giving her the bottle we decided to leave it for a few days and come up with a new tactic. My partner is now trying to introduce a bottle about half an hour after BT feed, just before bath. Then I try again (as there'll be 99% of the milk still in the bottle) when I top her up just before bed. I could try offering a bottle at other times, but read from various sources that it's easier to be introduced by a partner/relative etc in the first instances then once LO is suckling mum can join the feeding gang again?

I've never been able to express very much. LO had a tongue tie which I'm sure impacted on my milk supply. I was making lactation cookies with Brewer's yeast & whole oats etc, taking Fenugreek (enough to make me smell like maple syrup), drinking mother's milk and fennel tea and of course eating plenty of good food - which I feel helped a little. I also invested in my own pump after hiring one for the previous couple of months but did initially (and still occasionally now) feel like it takes milk away from her for her next feed - or at least that's how it appears? When would you suggest I pump? I've recently been draining after the first feed of the day and getting around the 30ml mark.

LO used to be a serial snacker before I put her on a routine but I think this and low supply go hand-in-hand as I don't think I had a full feed available to her. I heard her properly swallow milk for the first time when she was about 3 months. So at the moment my milk is like golden liquid which breaks my heart to waste.

She's on (roughly) a 4 hour easy, she was okay to wait 4 hours between feeds, but over the last few days there have been a few occasions where she seems hungry after just a couple of hours! Do you recommend I drop to a 3/3.5hr routine for a few days or stick with 4? I should say that when she feeds she starts by coming on and off the breast about 20 times until there is a let down which she will happily drink but then pulls off when the flow slows. She'll then pull off and look around the room for a few seconds, turn back and suck a few times and then pull off again. This carries on for as long as I let it. I generally try to feed and home and keep the room quiet and free from distractions. It's not any better or worse if we are out of the house, but I can hear her swallow which I find reassuring.

I'm not returning to work yet but have a wedding in Italy this summer where it is already 30 degrees. I'd like to be able to give LO some water as I don't think 4 hourly feeds will be enough - I know I get very thirsty down there! We are also driving down from the UK (over a couple of days) so it'd be much easier if she could take a bottle. Easier, but not essential I guess. We've tried syringing and using a cup - neither of which she liked and was crying so much she ended up swallowing lots or air - ouch. She was much smaller when we last tried so perhaps we could give it another go., but it would be easier for (us and) others who may be looking after her in the near(ish) future to give a bottle rather than cup.

Thanks for you help x

[*Ali*]

It's better to follow your LO's cues with regard to feeding intervals. If she seems hungry then feed her, don't go by the clock. Frequent feeds help supply so if you think you have a temperamental supply that's even more reason to offer frequently.  It's normal to need feeds after a shorter time sometimes than at other times. Just like you might need an extra drink or snack some days and not others. The composition of your milk will change dependent on the demand and environment so is always the perfect liquid for drink, snack or a full meal.

Water is not recommended for breastfed babies under 6mo. Breastmilk is all they need. In hot weather when thirsty it is better to offer extra feeds to quench her thirst. It is much more hydrating that water due to other compounds in it. Also water can fill their tummies without any calories/nutrition. It will also send a message to your body that that fluid isn't needed and affect your supply.

I think the plan for your DH to offer the bottle between the BT feeds is a good one.

If she goes a while at night without feeding you could try pumping before you go to bed. And don't feel you have to offer a full 3-4oz in each bottle. You can just offer an ounce each time until she's taking it so you don't waste so much.

HTH.

[SpiritedLIttleOne]

We have been only been offering an ounce at a time as I'm only able to express roughly that amount. Sometimes it's 10ml, other times 40. I currently express after first feed as I find it easier to do then as I'm generally at home and don't have visitors that early! Little one has a top up before bed and will then wake at about 11 for a feed. I've taken the advice to feed her if she wakes and it's been more than three hours and try to resettle if it has been less than that. Her wakings are still quite unpredictable so I can't express at night for that reason.

The good thing about feeding to timings was I know I'll have time to replenish the milk supply for her before her next feed. If I'm to feed on demand the timings could vary so much I wouldn't know whether it'd be safe to express as I'd never know when the next feed would be! What is normally done in this situation? I know that my supply would probably improve... But surely the EASY routine would be out the window!?

[*Ali*]

The main aim of EASY is to separate the E from the S to avoid a feed to sleep dependency. With you,  especially EBF babies, it will often be more like EAEAS and that's fine.

I wouldn't worry too much about having pumped and then her needing a feed shortly after. The breast is never truly empty. It can continue making milk during a feed and this milk will actually be higher in calories than the milk stored when feeds are further apart. If you pump at the same time each day your body will get used to producing extra at that time.