Author Topic: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!  (Read 539 times)

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Offline maybell245

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Hello,
My DD is 8 weeks old (today actually) and she has been on EASY since we brought her home from the hospital.  We started with 2 ˝ hour EASY and at 4 weeks moved to 3 hour EASY.  She is bottle fed breast milk and formula.  She is our 2nd child, our first child is almost 4 and did EASY as well.  She was C-section deliver at 38.5 weeks and was 7 lbs 14 oz at birth.  At her 1 month appointment, she was 9 lbs 1 oz.
She seems to be a cross between Textbook and Touchy baby with more similarities to Textbook.
I am having 3 issues I would like advice on.  I will put our routine below with some notes as well.  I am going to provide as much detail as I can.
My DH also wants me to point out, “She is a fine baby, she is great most of the day.  The issue is a few hours at night that make it difficult to have any Y time or go to bed early since we have another child.”
Routine:
E 7:00 – Wake to feed 4 oz.
A – diaper change, usually a poo and hiccups and laying on blanket looking at big sister or Mommy’s face.  Usually have her sit up on my lap or somewhere during hiccups.
S – First yawn is usually at 8:00 so I start the 4 S’s of sleep around 8:05.  She is usually asleep by 8:20 and will sleep until 10:00 when she needs to be awakened.  When going down, she often starts to cry loudly in the “Sit” part of 4 S’s so I just stop sitting, sing, shush and put in bed.
E 10:00 wake to feed 4 oz.
A – clothing change, tummy time, play with gym
S – First yawn is usually at 11:05 so I start the 4 S’s of sleep around 11:10.  She is usually asleep by 11:30 and will sleep until 1:00 when she needs to be awakened.  When going down, she often starts to cry loudly in the “Sit” part of 4 S’s so I just stop sitting, sing, shush and put in bed.
E 1:00 wake to feed 4 oz.
A – diaper change, usually a poo and hiccups and laying on blanket looking at big sister or Mommy’s face.  Usually have her sit up on my lap or somewhere during hiccups.
S – First yawn is usually at 2:00 so I start the 4 S’s of sleep around 2:05.  She is usually asleep by 2:15 and will sleep until 4:00 when she needs to be awakened.  When going down, she often starts to cry loudly in the “Sit” part of 4 S’s so I just stop sitting, sing, shush and put in bed.
E 4:00 wake to feed 4 oz.
A – difficult to have any A.  Often fussy right after feeding is over and she starts to get tired.
S – May not yawn, if she does, it’s at 4:30, right after she is done eating.  She is usually fussy at this time.  I try to keep her up until at least 4:45 so she doesn’t go right to sleep after the feed.  I usually start the 4 S’s of sleep at 4:50 and she is asleep by 5.  This catnap is hit or miss.  Some days she sleeps from 4:50 and we need to wake her at 6:00, and some days she sleeps for 10-15 minutes off and on and needs to be shush patted to make it to 6.  The latter is tough since I try to cook & eat dinner during this catnap for my almost 4 year old’s routine.  Her bed routine starts at 7 as well as the 8 week old so I try to have dinner started by 5:45.
A – Wake (or get if she didn’t sleep much or at that time) at 6:00 and be in carrier, bouncy seat or swing for a few minutes while we all finish eating dinner.  She is usually fussy no matter what we choose even if we hold her.  After one adult is done eating, she gets a bath and pj’s on before feeding.
E – at around 6:30, 4 oz.
S –right after bottle.  See issue #1 below.
E – at around 8:30, cluster feed 4 oz.  (hoping to stop this soon since she is 8 weeks and the EASY cheat sheet I printed said not to after 8 weeks)
S – right after bottle.  See issue #1 below.
E – dream feed at 11:00.  See issue #2 below.
Overnight – DD will wake one time during the night.  Some nights 2:00, some, 3:30, some 4:00, some 4:30.  We try the pacifier to see if she just needs to suck, but she refuses and eventually goes into hunger cry.  We feed her 4 oz.  Sometime she goes right to sleep after, sometimes she cries off and on for 30 minute after and sometimes her eyes are wide open as if she wants to play and we shush for what  feels like forever.  Depending on when this night feed is may determine her wake time in the morning, but we try to hold her off with the paci and shushing until 7:00 when her sister gets up.

Notes: 
•   We just starting feeding her 4 oz. 3 days ago.  She was eating 3.5 oz., but I thought if we “tanked her up” and I added ˝ oz. to each bottle during the day she might not need that middle of the night feeding.  So far it doesn’t seem to have worked.  The first day, she wouldn’t take the extra ˝ oz. at any feeding.  She would turn her head away or close her lips on the bottle, not suck and gag a little until we stopped.  The 2nd day she took the 4 oz. at all feedings.  The 3rd day (today), she hasn’t taken a full bottle yet (it’s 12:00 noon now), she took 3 oz. at 7 and 1 oz at 10.  I am paranoid she has a slight case a reflux as a result of these events, but assume it’s too soon to tell.
•   She slept in the bassinet in our room for all naps and sleep until she was 6 weeks.  At 6 weeks, we started putting her in the crib for 1 nap at a time and she transitioned no problem.  Two days ago we started using the crib for all sleep.  There has not been a change on her night habits (see issue #1 below) and she goes in the crib willingly.
#1:  DD is having a hard time going to sleep for night sleep.  For the past 2.5 weeks especially, we put her down between 7 and 7:30 for the night and she will usually sleep for 30 minutes at first and then wakes every 5-15 minutes after that until after her cluster feed between 8:30 and 9.  Or the last 3 days, she has awoken every 5-15 minutes until the dream feed at 11, which doesn’t make it a dream feed at all!  When she wakes, she starts fussing, grunting or coughing the first few times.  We wait to make sure she doesn’t go back to sleep, occasionally she does, but then 5-15 minutes later when she wakes again she will just cry and not mantra cry, because she won’t stop.  We go in and shush-pat.  Sometimes she escalates and we have to do it louder and sometimes she quiets right away and we do a full 3-5 minute shush-pat cycle once she quiets (slow down the shushing and patting until an eventual stop).  DH and I think today we may try to E at 6:00 instead of 6:30 to keep the EAS order.  I am not sure if that will help or not.  We were going to stop the 8:30/9 cluster feed, but she seems to expect it now or gets herself hungry from all the crying/waking because she does do her “hangry” cry as I call it at around 8:15 if she hasn’t slept much after we put her down. 
Can anyone shed some light on this?  Is it something we are doing? 
#2:  DD is not really taking the dream feed.  She really hasn’t taken a whole dream feed from when we started it at 4 weeks.  We do it at 11.  From the beginning, she will not take it all.  We have offered 3.5 oz. (now 4 oz.) each night.  Some nights she will drink 1 oz., some nights 2 oz. and some nights 2.5 oz.  If DH walks around the room while feeding her it, she may take 3 oz., but a few of those times, she spit up a bunch shortly after.  In the BW book, it said if baby doesn’t take dream feed to focus on that and forget about cluster feeding.  So instead of just taking the cluster feed away cold turkey we took the cluster feed bottle down to 2 oz. thinking that would make her more willing to take the full dream feed at 11.  She still only took 2 oz. at most 3 days in a row when we did that.  We were going to just not offer the cluster feed next, but then she started showing signs of hunger as mentioned above at 8:15.  I worry that this is related to issue #3.
The nights she is still awake at 11:00 because of issue #1, she will take a full bottle at 11:00.
Any advice on how to help this?  Is this related to #3 below?
#3:  As mentioned above, DD is still waking once a night and the time is different each night.  Usually when she wakes, she will fuss or make noise and put herself back to sleep off and on for 20-30 minutes.  Then, she’ll fully wake and escalate to her hunger cry.  I have tried going in and giving her the pacifier in the crib.  She may take it for a few minutes and then cry, but she often rejects it and cries and flails until I feed her.  We feed her 4 oz.  And as mentioned above, she may go right to sleep, fuss off and on for 30 minutes or seem to want to play.
Any advice on this?  Should we do the 4 S’s of sleep overnight?  I still shush-pat and swaddle, but I don’t sit and the tone is already set because we feed her in the dark.
I hope I provided enough information so that maybe someone can see something I am not seeing.  Thank you!

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #1 on: May 29, 2017, 18:40:37 pm »
Hi and congratulations on your LO :)  You've given loads of info there so bear with me if I miss anything - will try my best! 

Just reading through my first thought would be to ensure in that in everything you are doing laying these great foundations, you find time to relax and enjoy her too :-*  At 8 weeks I don't think many babies have really settled into a predictable, stable routine, and it's normal for things to change on an almost daily basis.  Those fussy evenings are especially hard I know, but they are normal for a young baby and very common.  The early weeks with a newborn are hard work, even more so with another child in the mix, but it is a very short time in the grand scheme of things.  Perhaps your Y time will need to be a little more creative right now?  If the fussy difficult time is the evening, what about a more relaxing meal or something during one of her lovely naps?  Does your older one go to a childminder/nursery at any point or can you make use of a playdate?

Regarding your specific issues you asked about -
(1) This could well be very normal as I said above, although i appreciate it is frustrating.  I've often heard it said that 8 weeks is the peak fussy age for babies (colic, development, growth spurts) and this may well be an issue that resolves by itself.  However, I do wonder if perhaps she is a bit overtired going to bed?  This might well be an accumulation of tiredness during the daytime - if you take a look at this:https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0 you'll see that a lot of her A times are at the upper/just above the upper average range for her age.  You are clearly very good at spotting those sleepy signs but often first yawn is already too late.  Perhaps try settling her 10 mins earlier than you are currently trying and see if that helps?  Secondly, I know Tracy said to wake to feed, but my experience is that constantly waking LOs up from naps with no opportunity to wake naturally does tend to build OT.  You can combat that in a number of ways - potentially letting her sleep a bit longer and 'relaxing' your 3H EASY, at least at one point in the day.  She's still so so tiny right now, if she wants to go 3.5-4h between feeds at some point in the day because she'd rather sleep (both mine did this) the she will likely make up for it with clustering in the evening.  Secondly you could shorten up A times towards the end of the day, perhaps an earlier bedtime bottle and earlier into bed?  Or perhaps have her in a sling for the catnap to both free up your hands and definitely get that late nap in?  One nap like that won't hurt when she is having so many chances to learn independent sleep at other times.  And snuggly babies are lovely!

(2) I'm not a great one with dream feeds as chose not to do it with mine, but you can try maybe 20-30 mins earlier or later and catch her in a different part of her sleep cycle?  Or just leave it for a few weeks and feed when she is hungry for now, then try reintroducing when you are getting some more settled evenings?

(3) A night feed, or 2, or even 3 is normal at this age I'm afraid!  A lot of the feeding advice in Tracy's books is now outdated and we like to think she would have updated it to reflect current thinking and research.  If she wakes I'd just get on and feed.  If she's going to fuss for 30 mins, settle for a few mins, then fuss again and really wake herself up to feed anyway, you've both just lost lots of sleep for no gain.  If you fed to begin with she may settle back more easily and you get back to sleep quicker too!  Different if she's fed 30 mins or ago or something, but anything more than 2.5-3h or so from the last feed then assume hunger at this age.  If she is awake but content after a feed then ignore her and she will probably doze off eventually.  If she is distressed, shh pat to settle but no need for 4S winddown again. 

Hope that helps a bit, please come back with any other questions :)
***Katherine***







Offline Katet

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #2 on: May 29, 2017, 22:19:06 pm »
I'm think the same as the PP
1) it's normal (ie should happen normal) for a baby to have a fussy period in the day, it's actually when the body releases the stress in it. So hard as it is roll with it

2) I didn't do dream feeds, so can't comment on that. I just went to bed early as my children got their best sleep early in the night.

3) again if the wake up times are irregular then it's probably that she needs that night feed.

TBH I think that there aren't really any issues, more that you have desires to have things running a bit smoother than they are at this point & it isn't happening as quickly as it did with your older child so you see it as an issue when the reality is everything you write about is pretty normal.
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline maybell245

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2017, 23:35:17 pm »
Thank you both :).  What you have said has put things into perspective!

I did try to put DD down earlier for her naps yesterday and today.  Yesterday, it seemed to help her evening fussiness.  Today she ended up overtired because she kept waking during her naps.

It's so hard not to compare experiences!  I am doing things the same, but that doesn't mean she'll respond the same since she is a different child.

I myself am still adjusting to having 2 kids....learning how to juggle.

To answer a question -  my older DD did have preschool, but that is now over for the year.  My mother-in-law is coming 3 days a week for a few weeks to spend time with her while I am with the baby, so that should help get me some Y time a few days.

Offline Katet

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2017, 01:00:56 am »
It's so hard not to compare experiences!  I am doing things the same, but that doesn't mean she'll respond the same since she is a different child.

Yes nothing worked the same for my 2... although I had a grumpy/spirited child first & more textbook spirited second & it did help me realise that the most important part was to "work with your child" & not try to follow a book.
dc1 July 03, dc2 May 05

Offline maybell245

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #5 on: June 02, 2017, 02:57:37 am »
Wondering if Shush Pat can be a prop or AC?  Last 4 nights she hasn't gone to sleep between 7 and 11:30 and DH and I have pretty much shush ed over and over without stopping.

I adjusted her A times and some of those days her naps are long and some not.

She has been Spitting up hours after feeding and gassy at night too, I have tried to help with gas with rubbing her tummy and circling her legs.

Please help!  Feeling frustrade and afraid she won't sleep unless I shush all night.

Sorry if any typos, posting from phone.

My turn to shush!

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2017, 11:41:34 am »
Shh pat can become a prop, but props tend not to show effects/become much of an issue before the 4 month sleep regression so I'd be hesitant to put it down to that.  Some gassiness and spitting up can be normal in young ones as their digestive system matures, but it can sometimes be a sign of reflux or intolerances too.  Perhaps something to discuss with your health visitor or doctor?  Though if she is still very settled at other times of the day and it's just an evening thing I would think this was less likely the case.  When you are having those long evenings why not just get her up and have her in a sling/bouncy chair or similar in front of you or even just let her sleep on you?  4 hours of shhing is enough to drive anyone insane! 
***Katherine***







Offline maybell245

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2017, 18:32:52 pm »
Ok, I was just worried she wouldn't be able to sleep without constant shush patting.

I think she was OT from all the wake to feeds from before (as you mentioned can happen).  I spent the last 4 days letting her nap longer when she wanted, shortening her A times and if she wouldn't catnap in the crib, use the carrier or the swing so I can make dinner. 

She seemed to take a long nap in the morning 2.5 hours.  Sometimes I would need to help her extend after 30 minutes, sometimes not.  Then, her 2nd was usually 40-50 minutes and 2 days I couldn't extend more than 5 minutes at a time and the other 2 I got another 25-30 minutes from her.  Her 3rd nap was 90 minutes to 2 hours 15 minutes.  The catnap was the hardest to help her with, but ended up getting 30-50 minutes the last 2 days.  Yesterday was the first night in a few weeks that she went to sleep after her 7:00 feeding.  She actually slept ALL NIGHT until 6:30 am as well!  I didn't see that coming!  She still only took 2 oz of the Dream Feed, but I guess she didn't need it since she slept through?

Anyhow, I am trying to figure out if that was a fluke or if I what we did helped her catch up so she could fall asleep last night?

Today I have to wake her from her 3rd nap because she has a check up.  I hope that doesn't result in OT tonight!

I plan to ask about reflux.

And yes the shushing was driving us insane.  Each night she did settle more quickly, but we often still couldn't get more than 10 minutes at a time of her "sleeping" or at least laying here quietly.  One night I recorded myself shushing and used that afterwards with the patting because my face hurt from all the shushing.  That helped!

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2017, 19:32:56 pm »
You can download a white noise app which may help?
***Katherine***







Offline maybell245

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2017, 23:47:47 pm »
We have a white noise machine, it didn't seem to help.

Dr. said it could be mild reflux and to wait and see because it may resolve itself soon and if not she may need a medication.

Offline jessmum46

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Re: 3 different sleep issues that I think are related? Please help!
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2017, 12:34:33 pm »
Sometimes you can find a different frequency noise which your LO will prefer - I believe if you have a quick google there are loads of them - pink, blue, grey and brown! 
***Katherine***