Please help - nearly 8 month old very short naps and not much sleep at night

[welshhartleys]

Hi,

I am new to this forum and have read the guidelines but please forgive me if I make any mistakes....

My daughter is nearly 8 months old, or just gone 7 months by her due date, she was 2 and a bit weeks early. She has gone from around January time to sleeping around 11 hours a night with a few wakings to sleeping from around 9.15pm through till around 5/6am and then wanting to get up and play, very hard to get back to sleep but we do try. We normally take nearly an hour in resettling her (I know) and then she tends to wake on and off up until half 8 when we normally get up. Then she has 3 or 4 very short naps throughout the day. Anything from 15 minutes through to 40 but normally around the half hour mark. It is so tiring. I think i am doing everything wrong reading a few of the sleep tips She is my firstborn and this is all new to me. I was trying to resettle her for day naps in her moses basket just before Christmas so when she was around 11 weeks old but new years eve I did my back in and everything when  up so to speak. I was in bed a lot and couldn't bend down so she came in with me when my partner went to work. She got used to coming into me around 8am but that got earlier and earlier. My back is sort of better but still struggling to bend down.

Our day sort of goes like this :-

8pm start bedtime routine with bath and then bottle and bed, recently she has been fighting the rountine and started crying as soon as we go upstairs. We then end up with her crying going down and then getting her back up for another brief feed and then down and settled for around 9.15pm ... she used to be fine going to bed and settle herself, I am not sure if her started crawling has changed this as she started rocking and kneeling around the time her settling down by herself at night went out the window

2.30am wake for feed - she has done this last few nights, sometimes it has been as early as 10.30 but she tends to sleep for a few hours after being put down...

4.30 awake and feed

6am awake and feed if we cant get her to sleep by other means.. then in bed with us...normally asleep by 7 and then might wake up once or twice and gets resettled and up for around 8.30 .... she was waking up 8.35 or within a couple of minutes for a while...

Depending on how many feeds in the night she might feed around 10 and asleep by what I think I should be calling AP - in stroller or car ... short nap of around half an hour, today was 17 minutes

Then she can normally stay awake for nearly two hours before getting grizzly. I find her very difficult to put down if she gets too tired and she just screams so I aim within an hour and a half to be looking at getting her to sleep after her last wake but sometimes, if she isn;t too tired she can go for three hours.... I tihnk distraction is key here.... my mum was here Friday and she went 3 hours 20 minutes before we went for a walk to get her to sleep and she went straight to sleep!

Then bedtime routine starts 8pm ...

Unlike my partner I think the bedtime is too late but looking at amount of naps she is having too many as well?? But then they are very short naps.

I would really REALLY appreciate any advice anyone can offer me and if you need anything else from me please let me know.

She is formula fed after refusing the breast around 15 weeks, we started BF exclusively but then ended up supplementing with formula which took over and her refusing the breast She is not on solids but we are slowly trying to do the baby led weanign so giving her bits of food to try out.... she has sucked watermelon so far.

I have my partner at home this week as he is a teacher so between the two of us I am hoping to get her routine fixed and her day naps and night sleeping better......she is still in the moses basktet ... I have been trying to get her to play in cot so she gets used to it but since she can crawl she hasnt liked playing in it so much - I normally put her in there in the morning for 10 minutes whilst I wash bottles etc but now she ends up crying. I know we need to get her in the cot but scared as she hates bedtime so much already at the moment

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

The first thing that strikes me about your routine is just how short your LOs awake time is. Activity time at 8 months would be around 3.5 hrs, although each LO varies. And even at 7 months we'd expect closer to 3hr or 3hr 15 mins or possibly more than that.  You are giving yourself a hard time trying to get her to sleep or to nap longer if she is not ready for sleep (UT = under tired).  Here's a link to guidance times
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0
LOs who are used to being put down for a nap early or after a short A time will habitually start to show those sleepy signs early too, they can also show those signs when they are bored and need a different activity.  I think you saw this when your mum was visiting and the A time went up to 3hr 20.
I would suggest moving directly to 3hrs for each A time and see how it goes - after 2-3 days we could see what has happened and reassess, maybe increasing to 3hr 15 for some or all of the A times (and maybe increasing again after another couple of days).
Moving directly to 3hrs can seem daunting but the sooner you make that shift the sooner she has the opportunity to nap better.  Having very short naps means she is likely not feeling properly rested and then gets grouchy or fussy as a result.  Plan a few activities so that you aren't stuck for things to do, they don't need to be amazing, just a few household items she hasn't played with before would be enough to keep her occupied for some of the time.
You could also increase what you are offering in terms of finger foods which can take up a huge amount of time.  Not all 8 month olds eat a lot of solids but sharing a meal and exploring textures and tastes is good practise and helps all sorts of developments.

At 7 months we'd probably look for two good naps (1.5hr or 2hr each) but depending on how her A time ends up an 8 month old can be heading more towards 1 long nap and 1 shorter nap.  This means you don't have to worry about every nap being long.

With WU (wake up) being 8.30 your day might look something like this:
WU 8.30
E 8.30 milk
E 9.30 finger foods
A 3hr
S 11.30 - 1.00 (after a 30-40 min nap you can resettle to extend it, you can attempt to resettle until the end of nap time) (1hr 30)
E 1.00 milk
E 2.00 finger foods
A 3hr
S 4.00 - 5.30 (1hr 30)
E 5.30 milk
E 6.30 finger foods
A 3hr
E 8/8.15 milk
BT 8.30

A note about E times - if your LO is not used to going beyond 4hrs for milk feeds you might want to give a little top up feed prior to the nap time, on this routine you will see milk feeds naturally extend a bit longer to 4.5 hrs as LOs who eat solids between milk feeds can usually go that additional time (plus also as they are asleep).

A note about BT refusal - I see she has been fussing at BT and you said she was crawling. Developmental leaps and great mobility will often disturb even the best routines. There is no guarantee that she is going to go to bed any easier at BT with the new routine until this phase passes, but she might...and if it continues for a long time we could think about shifting naps and/or BT to help.

I notice she's also having 2 or 3 night feeds which is quite a lot at this age for a formula fed baby. I would suggest that if it has only been 2hrs since her last feed you can go ahead with resettling without a feed.

There's a link here which contains lots of links about starting EASY including for different ages, you might find it useful:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=186622.0

If you can log your EAS times each day (and night) it would be really useful for people who are supporting you. And post the EASY times in the format like I used in the sample day above.
You can begin to sleep train with shush/pat at the same time as changing her routine just keep in mind we might not yet have the A time quite right for her.  If you want to move her directly to her own cot now that's fine, I would imagine she'll soon be too big for the basket and there is little point in sleep training in the basket only to have to go through it again in a month or two with the move to a different cot/room but it really is your choice, you might be happier with her in your room and that's fine

[welshhartleys]

Thank you so much! First nap went really well, asleep after 3 hours awake and slept for 55 minutes, not great but an improvement! Second nap an hour but 10 minutes awake during that time. Unfortunately she was up 7.30am so everything has been slightly off time but trying to keep to the schedule roughly. She's down for a nap now but hoping to get her to bed by 9 ish. We have two cots, (long story).One in the nursery which I put her in for play time in a.m and one my partner us putting up now in our room so we can stop using moses basket amd still use chang8ng favilities on cot in nursery. He has been out to get plywood to put on vase so we can use the angel care monitor ...hence why she is not heading to bed instead of nap. I was worried it would be too early for her to go down with only two naps as well.

The feeding is going OK too. I increased her bottle this morning for breakfast and tried to in day as well, keeping to 4 hours. Worked for first feed but second she was fairly sick after. She has reflux so i have always been careful with giving her too much.

I will do a couple of days and see how we go. Lots of changes for her so hoping we go OK. It will be her first night in her cot tonight, with us.

Just quick question, I know we are heading for 3 hours A time and 4 between feeds but if she only sleeps for say half hour and I can't get her back off, do I start A time from when she woke ? Otherwise she will be awake for more like 4 plus hours. I'm sure the answer is yes and I should just be trying to use this as a guide but wanted to double check. Thanks again, it feels great to finally have some solid advice to go forth with.

[creations]

Sounds like you had some progress already   We wouldn't expect naps to be brilliant on the first day but going down for the nap a bit more easily and sleeping slightly longer is really good.

The feeding is going OK too. I increased her bottle this morning for breakfast and tried to in day as well, keeping to 4 hours. Worked for first feed but second she was fairly sick after. She has reflux so i have always been careful with giving her too much.

If she does need to eat more often than 4hrs it's ok. Many refluxers need to eat small meals more often.  You might be able to offer a small natural yoghurt or a home made dairy pudding as a snack which she might take? Or a stick of cheese?  That would help her with a little dairy prior to nap which would help to more easily extend the milk feed without leaving her tummy empty with the acid.
I wouldn't really try to encourage her to take more milk if she isn't ready to take a bigger feed, but rather that each feed she decides for her self when she's had enough.
Is she on meds for the reflux? Do you need the dosage checking now she's bigger perhaps?

I know we are heading for 3 hours A time and 4 between feeds but if she only sleeps for say half hour and I can't get her back off, do I start A time from when she woke ? Otherwise she will be awake for more like 4 plus hours.

Actually this is your choice.
Getting a baby onto a suitable routine more quickly would mean watching the clock and sticking with the set plan (and after getting onto the routine you return to flexibility allowing for a slightly earlier nap after higher stimulation, watching for developments and changing needs etc) and yes this can mean very long A times which you get through to the next nap time. LOs can get very tired this way but in the end the tiredness works in your favour, it can help when you are sleep training. This suits some parents better and not others.
The other option is to decide on the A time and follow that throughout the day so as soon as she wakes from a nap you check the time and start counting A time from there, making sure she is asleep by the correct length of A time.  LOs rarely get OT this way but as the day continues you have to work out for yourself how the rest of the day will go. Short naps and shifting the next nap earlier to accommodate for it means there are hours left at the end of the day. Options are another nap or EBT (early BT). Again this suits some parents better and not others.  While we support as well as we can on the forums we try to respond to threads by 24hrs and can't offer on the spot guidance for a day which went off track - that would be your job.  (you might see urgent help asked for from time to time and the great thing is that with the community being global there may well be someone awake and ready to help...but there may not).
There you go - your choice.

Unfortunately she was up 7.30am so everything has been slightly off time

Same goes for this. I'd have no problem with a 7.30am WU time and you can just count the 3hr A from there and use the guidance plan as, well, guidance
If she usually sleeps until 8.30 though and this earlier waking continues for a few days you might need to increase that first A time a bit sooner than expected. Waking earlier can be due to the A time being short.

hope this helps

[welshhartleys]

Thank you. I will reply again, just off to bed and I have a question. She is still waking very early, like 5.30 6ish....rather than spend an hour trying to get her back to sleep for a bit... should I try and keep her up till that first nap? I'm trying to stick to the routine and times as I think it would be easier for all of us. I know you might not see this for a while but in the hope you / someone does.
 
Thanks in advance,

Best 😊

[creations]

If you have success with getting LO back to sleep after an earlier WU then tbh I would do that - it means you can start the day at a better time and begin the routine, staying more on track through the day. As that first nap comes later the chances are the earlier WU will stop soon anyway (fingers crossed - but early waking often comes when first nap is too early, the A time too short).
If you decide not to resettle and get LO up at 5.30/6am then in my opinion waiting until the nap time of 11.30am on the routine above that I posted as guidance is just too long. You'd be giving an A time of 6 hrs which is way way too long for 7-8 months old.  Instead, if not resettling to get a later WU time then I'd go for something a bit more reasonable like 9.00/9.30am. This is still a long A time of 3.5 - 4hrs but more realistic than 6hrs!

hope this helps