Need help..really confused...Feeding and Sleeping off track

[Pari281016]

Hi Everyone!

I don't know where to begin with!! I have a seven months old cute little baby and it is getting difficult day by day to manage her.

So a little backstory, she was born with bit of reflux and recently figured that she is mildly tongue tied. I exclusively breastfed on demand for the first six months and vaguely followed EASY routine. She complelety refused bottles in those six months.Even after much of cajoling and coaxing (feel bad about it)  she flatly refused bottled and one fine day after six months, she started to take bottle. VOILA !!!  She has been fed Pumped breastmilk and formula.  The problem is she sometimes finishes approx 4-5 ounces of bottle easily in 5- 10 mins and sometimes  she gives though time and it takes around an hour or so to get her to take bottle.

Also, she is not very interested in solids, she opens her mouth to take a bite, after probably a bite or two she just shuts her mouth. On the sleep front, she sleeps okay during the day and wakes up multiple times at night. Earlier during  the day time, She use to wake up by 45 mins..after going through the forums here..I am training her to nap for 1.5hours - 2 hours, which has been little successful but she wakes up multiple times during the night. I have weaned her from night feedings but she still wakes during the same time every night!!!. I try shh and pat her in my arms she sleeps but as soon as I put her down in the cot she wakes up crying. Also, in the night she jus doesn't take bottle..I tried dreamfeed her with bottle she refuses it !!


I am at my wits end to have proper routine for her. It's been seven months I haven't had a night where she has slept through and I got rest. To top all of this I am starting work next week and my mum in law will be taking care of my bubba. I am dreading how will it work...she flat out refuses bottle,  not feeding solids and not sleeping through night.


Hopefully someone here can help me figure out where or what am I doing wrong.

Her routine - 30-60 mis more or less. She is on 4 hour EASY

W: 8am
E: at 8am 5-6oz of milk
A: learning to sit up, rollover and tummy time
E at 9am - few bites of fruit eg banana, apple etc
S at 10 - 11:30

E : 11:30 around 5-6oz of milk
A : cruise in walker
S : at 1:30pm - 2:30 or 3

E : at 3:30 around 5-6 oz of milk (she sometimes refuses this bottle and may take around 3 oz or so)
A : we go for a walk in a pram
S : at 5:30 she catnaps for around 30 mins


E : at 6:30 I try feed her puréed veggies she probably eats around 1oz
We massage her and bathe her by and give her 7 oz bottle

She sometimes takes an hour to finish the bottle..she's off to bed by 8:30 or 9 and wakes up twice in the night. Around 2am and 6 am I pat and shh her is my arms and she falls back to sleep.after half an hour or so.

Thanks,
D

[creations]

Hello and welcome to BW forums

We'll certainly do what we can to offer advice on the problems you're having.
It would be helpful to have some more information.  It looks like the EASY times you have posted are what you aim for in the day rather than what actually happens, it would really help us if you could record the exact times things happen. If you have not yet started to record these times you can start tomorrow and the post the following day (a full day and night) and continue to record them each day.

Then you can post the "real" EAS times plus some additional information such as:
- if you try to put her down for her first nap does she actually fall to sleep at 10am or do you aim for 10am but she doesn't fall to sleep until later? Is she fussing, screaming or going down easily?

- when she wakes from her nap is it really 1.5hrs later or is she sometimes doing the full 1.5hrs and sometimes doing 45 mins?  What happens when she wakes and it is not the end of nap time yet?  Is she happy or crying? How does she respond to you trying to get her back to sleep?

- when a nap is shorter than planned do you use the clock to follow a given A (activity) time or do you stick to the plan and wait until the next planned nap?  What is her mood like on those times?

For now there area few things I notice
Routine
Her A time appears pretty short (2hrs), this is okay if she sleep really well on it but it could be impacting on her day or night sleep.
The last A time though is quite long in comparison, being either 2.5 or 3hrs after only a CN. This can cause multiple night wakings if it is too long for her and she is becoming OT before BT.

Feeding and solids
Tongue tie can impact on solids eating so you might want to talk with your health professional about this, however it may also be too early to tell if it really having an effect. At 6 months not all babies enjoy solids.
Solids portions at this age are tiny. The guidance is just a couple of teaspoons so the 1oz you see her take happily is totally fine and nothing to worry about.  Some babies take to solids very quickly and others just like little tastes of things for several months and then will pick up interest later on.

You can also offer her finger foods at this age if she is able to sit up and hold her head well, she might be more interested in finger foods or less interested, you will find out. It is advised to introduce finger foods in a timely manner (from 6 months) for all sorts of developmental reasons - it isn't about trying to make her eat more though, it's lots of other things such as self feeding, motor skills, language development, textures, etc.

It might be more convenient for you to be offering the solids in the evening but there can be benefits of offering earlier in the day. These are that often babies eat more in the morning and early afternoon hours rather than the evening so her interest could be greater earlier on. It also allows several hours for any effect to show itself or give her time digest, let gas out when she's a bit more mobile rather than before laying still for night sleep.  Trying solids in the evening could impact on how much milk she takes at BT or how long it takes to drink it if she is feeling full or digesting solids or even feeling gassy from the solids which her tummy is not accustomed to yet.  Just something to think about.

Night waking and Night feeds
If she is just waking twice in the night and going back to sleep in 30 mins it could just be that she is still learning to self settle and needs your help.
It could be that she is hungry - it is normal to still have a night feed at this age and for BF babies 2 NFs would not be unusual.  If you can get her back off to sleep then fine. If not though and she is waking many times and hard to settle she may well be hungry in which case it is likely faster to feed her and everyone get back to bed more quickly. I think all your NFs are BF, breast milk is digested more quickly so this could be the reason she wakes and is hungry.
As mentioned above multiple NWs in the early part of the night can indicate OT at BT which can be helped by altering the routine.

OK, hopefully some of that helps for now and you can post your EASY times or any more questions when you are ready

[Pari281016]

Thanks Creations for your reply

As asked I did record her times yesterday, below is yesterday routine

Woke up at 6am had a 3oz milk,  I shushed and patted her back to sleep

Woke up at 8am had a bottle of 5oz milk
 Activity time
Eat a spoon of banana at 9:30am
Put her in cot by 10 am and was asleep at 10:10am slept till 11;15

Drank a 6 oz of milk at 11:45 ( she took an hour to finish the bottle so around 12:45 or 1 she was done with the milk)
Activity time
She was sleepy by 2:05..put her in cot and was asleep by 2:20 she woke up at 2:50pm..I shushed and patted her to sleep a bit more..she woke up at 3:36pm.

Drank a 6oz of bottle at 4pm (took again an hour to finish this bottle)
Activity time
Fed her a tablespoon of avocado at 5;30pm
She was sleepy at 6pm, put her in cot and was asleep by 6:10pm
Woke up 6:42pm

By this time DH is home,he played with her we have her a massage and bathe at 7:15 pm...
She played a while in Nuer walker and had 7 oz of milk at 8pm and was in cot by8:20, she was asleep by 8:30pm.

She woke up at 10:35pm for a burp and slept till 2:30.. I breastfed her she somehow couldn't sleep..was crying when I put her back in the cot after feed so DH had her lying on him for a while
She woke up again at 6:17am for a feed .

Answering your questions below -

- if you try to put her down for her first nap does she actually fall to sleep at 10am or do you aim for 10am but she doesn't fall to sleep until later? Is she fussing, screaming or going down easily?

I go by her cues..she starts to rub her eyes at around 2hour mark.. usually goes down easily..she talks to herself and goes to sleep by herself in 5-10 mins


- when she wakes from her nap is it really 1.5hrs later or is she sometimes doing the full 1.5hrs and sometimes doing 45 mins?  What happens when she wakes and it is not the end of nap time yet?  Is she happy or crying? How does she respond to you trying to get her back to sleep?

Her Naps have been inconsistent sometimes she does 1.5hours nap and sometime 45 mins..if she wakes up after 45min nap..she is not  in a good mood..she is neither happy or crying..she goes silent and doesn't respond much..when I try to put to sleep, she does go back to sleep unless if it's dirty diaper or if she is in pain or if she can't go back  to sleep.

- when a nap is shorter than planned do you use the clock to follow a given A (activity) time or do you stick to the plan and wait until the next planned nap?  What is her mood like on those times?

When she has had a shorter nap..then there is A time before E ..I do clock E timing as she is fussy and I wait till her next sleepy cues..she usually playful mood

For now there area few things I notice
Routine
Her A time appears pretty short (2hrs) - this is okay if she sleep really well on it but it could be impacting on her day or night sleep.

I go by her cues..but like as I said her naps have been inconsistent...and I helping her to sleep longer I am not sure if it's because of her routine she is unable to nap longer. I assume it would be ideal for her to have two naps of 1.5 hours and one nap of 30- 40 mins and sleep through night for 12 hours...but she doesn't sleep through night at the moment.


The last A time though is quite long in comparison, being either 2.5 or 3hrs after only a CN. This can cause multiple night wakings if it is too long for her and she is becoming OT before BT.

We were trying if this helps her to sleep better but realised no it doesn't..she was really cranky that night.

I am majorly concerned for her night wakings and feedings.. I only breastfeed her once in night I.e at 2am..


For solids I know she will eventually catch up.

Thank you, :*




 

[creations]

Hi again.
That routine actually doesn't look too bad even though you had to help her to go back to sleep mid nap she still got another bit of sleep.
I think it would help the routine if you transitioned to 2 naps per day and dropped the cat nap. This usually happens around 6 months so I would say that at 7 months your LO is ready for this routine change.
For this to happen you will need to increase her A time to 3hrs or more.  Increasing her A time should help her to learn more easily to sleep a longer nap without waking in the middle and needing to be resettled.  Here's a link about the 3-2 transition:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=246541.0
and here are the guidance A times by age:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=84884.0

Looking at how your day went I would increase the first A time to 2hr 45 or 3hrs (watch for sleepy cues but then look at that clock, try to make it closer to 2hr 45 or 3hrs before she is asleep even if it means delaying her nap a little).  The second A time was already 3hrs and here you might need to increase to more like 3hrs 15.

I am majorly concerned for her night wakings and feedings.. I only breastfeed her once in night I.e at 2am..

It is normal to still feed a baby at night at this age.
Sleeping through the night is doing a 5hr stretch of sleep without a feed and your LO has done from 8.30pm to 2.30am which is 6 hours, this is totally acceptable.  I'm afraid it may be that you need to alter your expectations some as you might not get a 12hr night just yet.  In fact some LOs never do a 12hr night (mine only slept 10.5 - 11hr nights, never 12.  He only did 12hr nights after dropping all naps at 2.5 years old).
In the BW books the DF (in your case it is a night feed) is dropped around 7 months but this is guidance only as with all BW ages/routines. It is when LO has solids pretty well established and is ready to drop that night feed. For you it might be at 8 months rather than 7 months and that would be seen as totally normal.  As I said before it is normal for a baby to have a night feed at this age and for BF babies to have 2 wouldn't be unusual.

[*Ali*]

I just wanted to reiterate what Creations is saying that it is completely normal for a 7mo baby to wake in the night and to need feeding a couple of times. It's also normal for a 7mo to not be that big on solids yet. She's only just started the solids and the formula to its natural she would need time to adjust. BF babies also take smaller quantities do maybe she just doesn't want all the bottle.

I really do think you need to just relax and follow your baby's lead and perhaps lower your expectations a tad. 

[Pari281016]

I agree Creations & Ali... I need to relax on my expectations..but as a FTM it's hard when everyone around says things like 'she shouldn't waking up for feed at this age' ,'she should sleeping through night' 'it's not good to feed her in night' etc etc...and things like this starts to play with your mind..and start to wonder if your are doing it the right way..

Anyhow, I still need to resettle her for naps...she jus take 40 mins naps and can't put herself to sleep for the next cycle...I am trying to extend her A time closer to 2:45 mins but she really gets cranky and needs to be held until she is fast asleep...whereas If I put her earlier..like after 2:15mins or so ..she sleeps  independently but wakes up in 40- 50 mins...

Also.. I am not sure of her milk and solids intake for her. She takes 4 bottles of 180 mls a day...She takes around 2 meals ...cereal about 2ounce and a fruit or veggie purée around 2ounce...I am not sure if it's enough calories for her..and could it be possible she wake up in night as doesn't feed well during the day ?

Thanks,
D

[creations]

It's hard when well-meaning friends and family put pressure on us to parent in a certain way. I think many of us experience that. In particular I remember more than one person blaming me for my baby crying because I didn't give him a paci when the truth was that he had always refused a paci.  Usually people mean well, and often they are looking for a solution which will give mum an easier time of it... but we don't have to listen to others.  Even here on BW, we can advise you but all the decisions on parenting are your choice.

With the nap timings there are two options I can see:
- put her down earlier at the time you know she falls to sleep easily but expect her to short nap, this will likely mean another nap is needed to get through the day. You can stop trying to resettle and extend the nap if you like and just get her up and get on with the day after the shorter nap.  Although she wouldn't be getting what we consider a "restorative Sleep" (1.5 - 2hr nap) you might find this better for yourself for now.  Trying to extend every nap is hard work and can sometimes have a negative effect on us mums.
or
- push through to the 3hr A time.  yes she'll probably need help to begin with as she learns to stay awake a little longer and to transition between sleep cycles but overall it ought to then lead to a more age appropriate routine, and one where you get a little break in the day.
The thing is with increasing A times is that LOs get used to going to sleep at a certain time so they seem cranky and over tired when we extend the A time...but on the shorter A time they do not sleep well so they are up after a short nap and can become OT by the end of the day as the tiredness builds up.  Increasing the A time a little might not be enough to get past that point where she is UT to sleep longer.

With her feeding. So long as there is an oz or so left in the bottle at each feed then you know she has taken her fill and has had enough. if she is draining bottles then make a larger amount.  4 milk feeds in the day is normal, plus one at night, so 5 in 24hrs (and possible 2 night feeds so 6 in 24hrs).
Again with solids, you can follow her lead on how much she wants to take.  You can introduce finger foods at this age too which is good for all sorts of developments even if she doesn't eat a lot of it.  Always offer some water as a drink with the solids.
She isn't going to eat at night for ever but right now it sounds like you have a totally normal feed routine for her age.

[*Ali*]

What about using wake to sleep to extend naps? It might not work if she simply isn't tired enough though.

You could also consider extending A time gradually by 10 minutes every couple of days if a big jump is not working. 

WHO recommendations are to feed a baby on demand day and night so maybe quote that back to people giving you aggro. Also, all babies are different just like all adults so there really is no should for when they reach milestones like sttn without food.

It sounds like she's eating a good amount in the day. Maybe her tummy just isn't big enough to fit it all in during the daytime hours just yet.

[Pari281016]

Hi Creations & Ali,

Yes...agreed it gets hard when people around you throw advices and expect us to take it !!!

Anyway, I have started to extend her A time and transitioned her from 3 naps to 2 naps..I have noticed that her naps have improved..fingers crossed...by saying so hope I don't jinx it 😉...we have also moved her bedtime earlier...she is now off for night by 7 -7:30. She still wakes up twice at 4 hour interval...I first try to settle her without feed but she starts to lick arm or cry ..so now I have stopped to resettle her to sleep in the night..and jus offer her a bottle. She takes a half feed of 2-3oz...sometimes 4 oz...her normal feeds are 6-7oz. Do you think it's a habitual night waking ?..

[creations]

Great to hear that the naps have improved.  Just to let you know that sometimes naps improve with an increased A time and then seem to get short again, it can sometimes be because another little A time increase is needed. So if you see this happen you can try another 10 mins on the A time and see if it helps.

I think it is still normal for a LO to have 2 feeds at night.  Mine only had one but he was up for the day at about 5am so really he would have had two if he'd been able to take a feed and go back to sleep (I would have liked that!).  You might see it drop to one feed in a month or so.  If you think it might be habitual waking rather than hunger you can try a W2S at night (disturb her ever so slightly an hour before the NW time to start a new sleep cycle) for a few nights and if she still wakes twice for feeding it may be at a slightly different time but it will show she is hungry and not waking habitually.
hope this helps.  Ali is better with milk feeding advice than I am so if she adds something different I'd follow Ali's advice

[Pari281016]

Thanks Creations for your reply

The reason I feel her night wakings are habitual as she never takes full feed as she jus takes 2-4oz...Since I have got back to work her night wakings have being difficult to cope with...

From past three days I have been trying to settle her without a feed..which has worked alright..but last night was bad..since 2am last night she was either in my arms or my husbands..we shushed and pat in our arms and she went to sleep but as soon as we put her in the crib..she would be up within 2 mins..

Also her wake up times are not very consistent...some times she wakes up at 4 hour intervals and sometimes 2 hour...for e.g she was up last night at around 1:40am shushed and patted her like 5 times..put her in the crib and woke up in 2 mins...she finally slept at 3:30 in my husbnds arm..she was up again by 5:47..again shushed and patted her in arms ..took her with me in bed..she slept till 6:45..

Just a note...she is in our room and her crib is next to our bed..the reason we haven't moved her yet into her room as coz of her night wakings...

[creations]

The level of disturbance that you describe from last night sounds like hunger or like something is bothering her rather than a routine issue.  I would consider things like teething or coming down with a cold, hay fever, being too hot or even some gas from some new solids she has tried.  I've had nights like that with my DS too, even if it is several nights running it doesn't necessarily mean it's a problem with routine.  Many times the reason will show up within a few days (ie teething or illness) and it will make sense.  If she won't settle I'd probably try a feed, especially if it means you all get back to sleep more quickly.  If it's not hunger but illness or teething you can't totally eliminate night wakings of this sort, all you can do is support your LO until the problem passes.

How are your days going?

[Pari281016]

Days have been ok...she now has A time of 3 hour.. but still sometimes needs a bit of resettling for her naps..

For night she usually does settle...apart if its early in the morning ..e.g around 6...last night she was off for the night by 7:40 pm woke up twice at 3am and 4:45am,  slept till 6...I wish I could extend a sleep bit longer ...

[creations]

Hmm...I think she is approaching 8 months old now, is that right? So she could well need another stretch on the A times.  That could help with resettling naps or her transitioning on her own to get the longer day sleep. And the slightly longer A time may also help to move BT a bit later so that her night sleep ends a bit later in the morning for you.
If she has never really done 12hr nights it could just be that she doesn't need or cant' do 12hr nights. Mine didn't do proper 12hr nights until he was 2.5 and all naps were dropped. When he was a baby it was 10.5 or 11hrs and I was constantly battling 5am WUs...to be honest I wish I had known then what I know now, I would have shifted his BT much later to get me a better sleep.

[Pari281016]

Yes, she will be eight months this week..I tried extending her A time by 10 mins or so over the weekend...she seemed to cranky and fussy..and was up in 45 mins mark ...we needed to resettle her...shhh and pat in our arms..sleeps again for another hour or so..but we are not always around...the days I work her grandma takes care of her...and she unable to settle her..

I am battling her wake ups at 3 am and at around 6 am..both the time we pat her in our arms and she is off to sleep...but now I am dreading that patting and sushing is becoming a prop...and its make her dependant on that ...and also realising she cant soothe herself .coz of us ...

Arrgh..its a catch 22 situation...