Developmental? Nap transition? Both...?

[LaraAndrea]

My 9 month old has started fighting her 2nd nap (3 times in a little over a week, so far). I know 9 months is a bit young to start 2-1 transition (but not unheard-of).

She has also started to become proficient at pulling herself up to sitting and standing and has been doing this instead of going to sleep.

She usually has a good AM nap 1.5-2h this is after 415-430 of very active AT.

She starts to show sleepy cues after ~415 prior to 2nd nap, but she does not settle (sitting or standing in crib) she will be quite happy in crib (up until a point when she is extremely tried... Or ends up hungry). She tends to fall asleep after over 5h  of awake time an OT.

Is this purely developmental? Early stages of transition? Both?

Any tips??

[creations]

Could be a mixture of developmental and the start of needing a touch less less in the day, hard to know for sure.
Are you able to do a bit of AP on nap 2 to get her down more easily rather than totally self settling?
It might be worth letting that second A time be a bit longer to make it easier on you to get her down, but then end the nap at the normal time to keep BT at the same time.

[LaraAndrea]

I have tried APOP with rocking/holding, she just pushes away. I end up nursing because she goes so long that she is yet to go down before her next feed time, but she doesn't sleep.

Yesterday, she skipped the 2nd nap entirely. She was in a good mood though.

[creations]

Have you tried pushchair or car naps for the afternoon nap?
or go for the 5hr A time when you say she will sleep - how long does she sleep then?

[LaraAndrea]

Yesterday I kept her up for 420 and she was pretty active most of the time. I nursed her and she got drowsy so I did her PD routine immediately. She slept for 45 min stirring once after 35 min. But then, she was sitting and pulling up for an hour after we PD for bed.

[creations]

Do you feel she is ready to start doing just one nap every day?  Or perhaps a day of one nap followed by a day of two naps?  Or even a few days of one nap then a catch up day with two naps?  She's very young but she seems to be skipping that second nap quite a lot. 

[LaraAndrea]

I am not sure...
I was able to nurse her down for a 2nd nap yesterday as well (40 min) but again it took her 60 mins to settle for bed. I am not sure if capping her CN even shorter would help BT? She may have slept longer if I had let her... Maybe putting her down later for bed?

I am willing to follow her lead if she wants to drop a nap. I am willing to continue to nurse prior to nap if it helps, but I am concerned about her pulling up standing in crib after PD. I know it is a phase, but I wonder if she is UT at BT. She is not sleeping longer in morning either WU 530-600 AM

[creations]

She does sound UT for BT. APing the second nap with nursing and moving BT  later for now may help you manage things for this phase before she fully drops that second nap.  If BT moves really far too late though I'd reconsider and perhaps move to the 1 nap and see if she can handle it.
How about try a long A before nap2, nurse her for it if it's helping and then a later BT. See how it goes for a week?

If morning Wu is too early for you a later BT may well help there too but if her WU starts to move later (which you'd pro like) then I'd stay alert to it and shift the nap equally that day otherwise you can end up with later WU but a short nap and that means unpredictable days which I'm sure you wouldn't want - well I wouldn't want them anyway, I loved the predictability and so did my DS

[LaraAndrea]

I am ok with a 6AM WU as that will work well when I return to work, but I may as you said benefit from a slightly later BT for a period. I will see how today goes... But not starting out well...
LO is not settling for her usually reliable first nap (sitting and pulling up), my fault we went for a stroller walk. She is so active that I can't even go for a walk or car ride without her becoming UT, even PD after longer AT as she didn't show sleepy cues till much later.

I hope she settles

[creations]

Oh dear, I remember mine being like that too. For a while he had to have a huge amount of physical activity before he could sleep - I do think he was older though.
Hope things go okay today x

[LaraAndrea]

She did eventually settle, after ~5h awake time. Then I was able to APOP with nursing for a 20 min cat nap. I put her down 15 min later than usual and she settled right away. 2 brief resettles between 11-12 (she cries out sometimes but it looks like she is still sleeping while she cries??) and slept till 6AM.

I am going to continue on for next few days with similar plan, see if there are any changes in LO needs/behaviour, then go from there.

[LaraAndrea]

Ok... So this 2nd nap is making me crazy!!

I can't even count on APOP. She is getting to point that she won't settle till she has exhausted herself... Crying/fussing/or playing in crib, or not at all.

She is clearly tired but she still won't settle... Is this normal? It probably is... But it is so maddening. She acts tired in every way. Same signals that she gives in the AM  (when she takes a good nap)

But she won't stop crawling, rocking, rolling, sitting, standing. If it is not sleeping she is doing it. It often seems manic to me. After a while she will start crying which will either lead to passing out for short nap (often in arms) or she will stop crying when I give up on nap entirely.

What should I do? Let her play for whole nap time only entering if it turns into crying?? How hard should I work to get a nap (ends up only 20-30 mins when happens)??

It is so frustrating when baby is obviously tired but won't settle.

[creations]

It does sound quite normal for the nap drop it's just that a lot of kids don't do it this early. I think if it has come to the point where it is making you crazy it's time to try something else.

Assuming nap 1 is still going well and around 2hrs long I'd try to get that in the middle(ish) of the day.  4.5hr A time is not bad but 5hr is better for ths nap so that you get 5hr A, 2hr nap, 5hr A then 12hr night - roughly - only a guide!
In reality LO might not manage a full 5hr after the nap and might need EBT which is great if she will do a longer night but not great if it leads to earlier WU next day because then you have a long stretch before nap time.
Some people find LO will go down for the second nap much better if they have totally missed it for a day - a mixture of 1 nap and 2 naps days.  It could be 1 day at 1 nap or 2-3 days at 1 nap followed by a 2 nap day to catch up.  Personally I would find this hard and so would my DS, we both preferred every day to be the same but some LOs do this mix of 2 and 1 nap days really well.

If you want to give up on the AP for nap 2 do so, no point you getting stressed out every day.  Maybe put her down in the cot for the nap and if she plays for 20 mins get her up, so she's had some quiet time.  Some kids will do longer quiet time.  Mine would do zero quiet time, he'd scream blue murder if I left him in his cot and he wasn't tired.  You never know she might do a mix of 1 and 2 nap days if you keep giving her the opportunity to sleep and she plays for a few days but then one day naps.

[LaraAndrea]

Thanks!!
I have a few thoughts along the lines you have suggested.
Right now she can do 445-5h in AM with a good night sleep.

Normally she is up by 6 which I made no effort to change as I plan to nurse before work, but... Today after skipping her 2nd nap we had to wake her at 6. I do wonder if she will give us longer nights with only 1 nap. (She was doing 10.5h previously)

In an ideal world I could nurse her at 6AM and put her back down till 7 (not sure if she will go back to sleep..?) Then the time between nap and bed won't be quite so long.

I will have to see what works...

[creations]

Today after skipping her 2nd nap we had to wake her at 6.

Yeah I think if there is more than one day where you are having to wake her at 6am because she is not naturally waking at that time then I'd bring BT a bit earlier. You can go say 30 min earlier, or an hour or even 1.5hr...some do much longer nights when they drop a nap but they don't necessarily do the longer nights right away.  I'd prob try 30-60 min earlier on BT.