10mth old still a terrible night sleeper. Please help me get some sleep

[malibu_nikkus]

My guy has always been a terrible night sleeper. Im going crazy!!!! Whether he sleeps well in the day or not doesnt seem to affect the amount of wake ups.
He has two EASY dependant on if we are home or out with his siblings. Often it is this (otherwise it would be long am nap and short pm nap with 3.30min wake times all day.
7am wake
10 30 sleep in car or stroller for 45mins
11 15 bf
12 30 lunch
2.30 sleep usually 1-1.5hrs
4pm wake and feed
5 30 dinner
6.30 bf
7pm bed. Goes to sleep independently mostly with paci, occasionally falls asleep bf

Then comes the fun. On a good night,  He wakes every 1.5-2hrly until 10pm. Then sleeps a good 4hr block. Then after that block he wakes every 1-1.5hrs again. I only feed 4hrly and will try super hard to settle him in cot.  At times i need to cuddle him to sleep. On a bad night he wakes 1.5-2hrly all night  long without the block in between.

Some days he has had one 2hr nap, but even with an early bedtime, he wakes 30-45min later and unable to go back to sleep even with a nap. He treats it like a nap.

Any ideas on what I can do? Im exhausted!

[deb]

Sounds like he might be restless from pain (teething?) or discomfort (food intolerances?). It also sounds like he might be OT if he's that restless. Has he started any new skills, or working on them, like pulling up more/trying to walk/trying to talk? Developmental leaps can also mess with sleep.

If you're in the 2-to-1 transition, might be worth trying to push for the longer A time (unless he's patently tired from a bad night's sleep before), as much physical activity as he'll tolerate in the afternoons - I found after swimming both my kids SLEPT! - and make sure he's getting a good satisfying meal to sleep on. Might it be worth trying pain meds 20 minutes before bed to see if he sleeps longer? That would give you a clue as to whether something is causing pain (molars?).

[malibu_nikkus]

He is a very active bub. For a few mths he has been crswling. Babbling has increased too. 

Went to doc yesterday. We are treating him for allergic rhinitis which has caused some fluid on the ears. After his anti histamine last night, he had a much better night. He woke 9pm, 1am (feed and a big one), 4.30am (feed, one side). Hopefully the antihistamine will help in the day to feed better so he wont need so much at night.

Why do you think he wakes after 1.5hrs at night?

How do you transition to one nap when he treats his bed time as a second nap of the day and has a very short nap at 6pm?

[malibu_nikkus]

Still having these problems. He has started waking 2hrly again even while on these meds. He went from waking 1-2 times in the night to waking 2hrly. I gave paracetamol which made no difference. The difference is, he self settles for all sleeps without any tears.

His little pattern seems to be:
Wake 7.30
Feed and breakfast
11am feed and usually a short 45min nap while out and about
12pm lunch solids
3pm bf and bed by 3.30
5pm wake and dinner
7pm bf
7.30 bed

Where am I going wrong? He is still on the antihistamine. The doc said his ears are looking great but to cont for another week. It is so cruel that he was sleeping well for 3 days and is gone again. So cruel!

[My little Liam]

It seems to me his is UT but falling asleep at BT because its been his routine for a long while and he is used to it. My DD is not even 9 months old yet and there is no way she would sleep well if her BT after a 1.5hr nap was after a 2.5hr A time. She would need around a 4hr A time after that kind of nap if not more! She also would never give me a full 12hr night at this point. I think an 11hr night is a bit more realistic.

You should probably cut the morning nap to 30 minutes to be able to fit in a longer A time in the evening
Something like
WU 0730
A 3.5hr
S 11-1130
A 3.5hr
S 3-430
A 4hr
BT 830

[malibu_nikkus]

Ah ok. Ill try a longer wake time. Also even after a short nap, are they able to cope with a long wake time like 3.5hrs..oops. 

Im finding some days he wont sleep till 12 or so when out and about. He then isnt ready for nap until late, then i have to wake him so it doesnt get too late. What is the latest you can let them nap in afternoon so bedtime isnt past 8?

[My little Liam]

We do long morning nap usually and my DD won't fall asleep before a 4hr15 A so we do something like

WU 7
A 4hr15
S 1115-1245
A 4hr I APOP this one so I can fit the nap in the day otherwise she won't fall asleep for the secon nap for at least another 15 minutes
S 445-515
A 2hr45
BT 8

Usually by the end of the day she will fall asleep with a short A because she has such long As the rest of the day and the last nap is short

If you want to do a short morning nap go for something like

WU 7
A 4hr15
S 1115-1145
A 2hr45/3hr
S 2/215-330/345
A 4hr15/4.5hr
BT 745/8

I think you will just have to play with the A times a bit here or there until you can figure out what works best. If you want BT to be at 8 the latest you might have to deal with a bit of an earlier wake up because once he sleeps better and has less NW I doubt he will be doing a full 12 hours.
If he is sometimes awake in the morning until 12 after a 730 WU then let him sleep for 1.5 hours and then put him down for a short 20-30 minute CN in the late afternoon with a short A to BT. I wouldn't let him have a 2hr nap though at this point as you won't have time for that CN and he probably isn't ready for one nap just yet so all it will do is get you a super late BT. (It's happened to us before)

[malibu_nikkus]

This is sooo incredibly helpful, thank you. Ill play around and see what happens.  Since having one nap or two shorter ones, he finally has a long block of sleep at night, followed by terrible blocks in the second half of the night. Why would this be? His night at the moment are like this:
BT 7.30pm
Feed 11.30/12.30am
4am ish wake and feed
5am - wake. bed with me with a feed
6 30/7am wake for the day.

[Martini~]

Honey it's worth checking if he isn't hungry. According to your post on bottle feeding if he hasn't gained weight in last 4mo it might be worth investigating.

[My little Liam]

For us early morning wakings happen when my DD needs another push to her morning  A time. Even 10-15 minutes makes a difference

[malibu_nikkus]

Oh lovely. He was awake for 3.5hrs during the night happily playing. Didn't seem hungry. This was his routine yesterday.
6am wake
9.45-10am sleep in car
2-4pm nap
7.30pm sound asleep

How can I tweak this? The 3hr play in the night wasnt fun.

[deb]

Wow, he's keeping us thinking, isn't he?

My guesses, in no particular order, are 2-1 transition, maybe new teeth, developmental leap happening or about to - my kids' sleep always went wonky right before milestones like rolling over or new words or complete sentences.

I'm stumped right now...been too long since I had such a little bub! Anyone else?

[My little Liam]

i think a few things are going into play here...
You did a 3hr45 A time before morning nap which might need a push to be honest but the two that stick out the most are  the 3.5hrA before bed after a 2hr nap and also the fact that he was awake for 4 hours after a 15 minute nap in the morning. I know he slept for 2 hours but still not a good idea I think. Before bed You need to put him down after a minimum of 4hrs A after a nap of more than 1.5hrs. I think your day should be a bit more like

WU 6
Nap 1 945-10
A 2.5hr
Nap 2 1230-230
A 4-4.5hr
BT 630/7

Other than that yes developments and teeth all make a difference here as well...

[malibu_nikkus]

Thank you. It helps me so much to have a schedule to work towards. Unfortunately it was pear shaped some yesterday as he only took a 1hr second nap.  So his day was like this.
6am wake
9.45-10.20 - nap in car
1 30 2.30 - nap
6.15 sleep
10pm wake and feed
Night waking every 2hrs...ahhhh!!!

[malibu_nikkus]

We are home today. Ive managed to push his first wake time to 4.5hrs. He only slept 1.15hrs and awoke tired.  What should the next week time be? Is 1hr nap actually restorative?

[malibu_nikkus]

I should mention that he woke at 11.45am. Doesnt leave a lot of time in the day for a second nap. This 2-1 is tricky.

[malibu_nikkus]

Tried to put him down to nap from about 330. He is still chatting and bouncing in his cot at 4.15.  I even tried to feed him to sleep at 4 with no luck. He seems tired but very busy chatting. Im stumped. Dont know what to do with Mr Mischief.

Sorry for all of my msgs. Im so appreciative of your listening ears and advice.

[creations]

Hi - just stopping by as I saw you'd been on your own for a couple of days.
How are things going now?

Based on what you said a couple of days back I think I'd be tempted to just move to 1 nap.  You did a 4.5hr A time and the naps was just over an hour but he woke tired.  To me this indicates he could possibly take a little more (I would not move the A every day but if you have continued for a few days with 4.5hr then now could be the time to up a little again) to get a better nap.  With say 4hr 45 A time and 2hr nap you could maybe get through the day on 1 nap.  This might not be possible every day, some people do some 1nap days mixed in with 2nap days based on how tired LO is.
WU 6
A 4hr 45
S 10.45 - 12.45
A 4hr 15
BT 5.00
this requires/expects a longer night which he might or might not do but I think at this point just a solid block of sleep would be welcome even if he didn't do 12 - 13 hrs right?
Depending on WU time (if he can only get to say 5am rather than 6 or 7am) then the next day you can fit in 2 naps more easily, one long nap and one little CN as you were doing before.
TBH I don't like the mix of 1 and 2 nap days as it wasn't suitable for my DS (or me) but lots of people go this way during the transition.
My DS moved to 1 nap at 11 months and I found it a very hard transition.  it's hard work eh.

I do feel, reading through your thread, that pain or discomfort could be at play though. Have you been back to the doc?

[malibu_nikkus]

Thanks heaps for thinking of us.

I returned to doc. Ears are fine, he hasnt put on any weight which is a bummer. Im supplementing for feeds too. But honestly, I feel like your routine suggestions are helping the most. Over the last few days, he has started settling well at night and waking 4hrly. He is taking big feeds when he wakes so I feel like some of the night wakings are genuine hunger. Given his weight and height gain over the last 4 mths has been poor, Im happy to feed a few times a night if needed, just not 2hrly. 

The first few days, I was able to get a long nap am and short pm, but now he is refusing the late afternoon nap, even if I do a short am nap, which is being tricky, and making for many night wakings. So, I think you are right about stretching out to one nap because even today we were out about and he didnt nap until 5hrs wake time in the morning and he was happy the whole time. Only problem is, he awoke 1hr later at 1.30pm when we got home and refused his afternoon nap. He was asleep by about 6pm and didnt seem overtired, happily self settling himself to sleep.  Im nervous how the night will go. I hope it will be ok.

[malibu_nikkus]

I also gave paracetamol some nights and it made no difference. Just today though he has started drooling and chewing on his bottle teat. Ill be watching out for more teething.

[malibu_nikkus]

He woke every 2hrs

[deb]

My DD1 went from 2 naps to 1 around 11 months (DD2 was early too, come to think of it.). You may be on the cusp of this developmental shift.

Hang in there - if you can get a nice long nap midday and maybe a catnap later until the shift finalizes, you're probably OK. And hopefully the night sleep will settle out as the developmental shift settles too.

You mentioned no weight gain, which isn't cause for alarm in & of itself, but might be time to up the daytime calories? Is he hungry when he wakes at night?

[malibu_nikkus]

Some nights he eats heaps every 2hrs but mostly, he only takes a lot at night when he feeds close to 4hrly. He hasnt put weight on since about 6mths which is a concern, but Im not sure how to get more calories into him in the day. He has high protein and carb meals with a sippy of formula. He completely refuses the 11am feed (which all my kids did at this age so I give a filling snack) and only eats a small amount at 7am prob.because.of night feeds. I also give a formula top up after bf at bed.  Not sure where else I can add calories...any ideas?

[creations]

even today we were out about and he didnt nap until 5hrs wake time in the morning and he was happy the whole time. Only problem is, he awoke 1hr later at 1.30pm when we got home

Whilst it might not be appealing to you - what I would do is make sure he can nap as long as he needs by continuing walking or whatever you were doing when he had his nap.  My DS would not transfer from car to cot when he was younger and if he needed a nap I actually just sat in the car with him until he was done (or on a sunny day I stood outside the car with all the doors open so he was not too hot and I was right by him).  When he was older I was able to transfer him more easily so I could let him start a nap in the car and then talk to him in his sleep and tell him "I'm going to pick you up, stay asleep" and then carry him constantly whispering "stay asleep, I'm taking you to bed" etc, he did stir but he understood and would sleep another hour or so in his bed.
Could you keep him in the car or pram perhaps for a full nap?  Or make sure you're home for the nap??  I know it's not always possible but during the transition it could help to avoid OT and he can get through to BT on 1 nap.

Has his weight dropped across two centile lines or is it just one?  What did doc say about weight?

Does he get enough fats in his solids? It's possible to add butter so some foods, stirred into pasta or sauces or scrambled eggs for instance can up the fat content.  Or to add avocado dip/spread onto his toast or use peanut butter as a spread or sauce.  Increase portions of eggs, cheese for instance. Switching white fish to oily fish will increase the fat content without being additionally bulky.
If you make any kind of milky pudding you could try using evaporated milk rather than regular milk, it's higher in protein and fats.
Taking out any "empty" foods and switching them for higher fat/protein may be possible (ie switch rice which has very little nutritional value but will fill his tummy up, instead offer more of something else he eats).
It depends what he usually eats really, some things are easier to switch than others.

[malibu_nikkus]

We are in a bit of a pickle. I dont remember the others making such a big deal of 2-1 naps but this guy is STRUGGLING.  No mattèr how he napped during the day he refuses the second nap. If I push the first one out, he gets overtired and naps for 1hr and refuses the second sleep.   If he naps around 11 for 2hrs and goes to bed around 5.30 or so, he will tske 2hrly and then at.5am. Ugh!!!

His weigbt dropped 50% to 25% to 5%. His heogjt went from 98% to 75% to 50%. Not ideal. But since supplementing with formula, he seems to have grown some which is awesome, in fact he has grown 4cm in about 3 weeks and put on about 500g! Unfortunately he is gluten, dairy, corn and egg free so that poses its own challenges.  I've increased avocado, nut butter and bacon intake (lucky boy!), cook with coconut oil and drizzle olive oil wherever possible. I feel like he is doing ok hunger wise, it's just this awful sleep that is torture.

[creations]

Looks like you need the nap at 11 for it to be a successful longer nap.  Any way you can bring BT even earlier if he totally refuses a second nap and you can't even AP one?
With BT even earlier there is of course  arisk of waking earlier in the morning, but then with a much earlier WU there might be enough time in the day to fit in two naps, the one at 11 for 2 hrs and then a long A time, short CN (will be be less resistant after a good long A?) and later BT.
In essence a one nap day followed by a two nap day and then each day judge based on WU time?
it's messy but it may help you through this transition.

[malibu_nikkus]

Thanks.  I was aiming for this kind of alternating structure, but even after an earlt 5.30 wake up this morning, a nicr mid morning nap, he still completely refused an afternoon nap in the car even after a swim. He has however, gone to sleep quickly at 6pm indepdendently without fuss even though  I expected some OT fuss. Guess we will have to wait and see what the night brings us.

[creations]

I suppose if he really won't take the second nap it's just a case of grit your teeth and deal with the OT wakings during the night. Not nice for you, but he will eventually get over it.

[malibu_nikkus]

Im going CRAZY!!! So I tried 1 nap a day and early bedtime. It started off ok, but then the night waking increased to 1-2hrly again. Im assuming overtiredness.

Two days ago, we were out about and he had two naps
6am wake
10.30-11.30am nap
2.45-3.30 nap (he was so tired ans desperate to sleep)
6pm bed (again. Super tired)
He then slept through until 4am. Fed and woke at 6.30am. He has never slept this long in his life.

Sooo. Yesterday, i decided to give to short naps a go
6am - wake
10.30 - 11.30 sleep
Difficult to get to sleep in afternoon
4.30-5pm nap FINALLY
8pm - sleep
12pm wake and feed. Took ages to resettle.  Tried pupd for 1.5hrs of crying. Finally settled and woke 5mins later. I fed.
He then woke 2hrly until 6am

I dont know what to do.

[creations]

Perhaps you can only get those 2 short naps if you are out and about?  it could be one way to go, always taking him out for naps although I prefer to have one at home so that when the nap drops properly to 1 it is in the cot.

Otherwise I'm not sure what else you can do other than move to 1 nap now, shift it later so the day is more balanced, EBT and grit your teeth through the NWs until it settles down.
hugs these transitions are hard going.