Do I need to move to 4 hour EASY?

[maybell245]

My Dd will be 15 weeks in a few days.  I think I need to move to 4 hour from 3 hour EASY.  Some (not all) of her naps have shortened to 45 minutes, she is crying at feeds and doesn't want to finish them and she is waking up at random times at night....usually started by getting her hand out of her swaddle and then ends up hungry.  She also may refuse the catnap and then end up OT for bedtime and wake a few times before the dream feed.

Does she need to move to 4 hour?

She was eating at 7, 10, 1, 4, 6:30 and dream feed at 11 with an occasional night feeding.

She was sleeping 1.5 to 1 hour 45 minutes 3 times a day with 1 catnap.

I looked here:

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=63161.0

And see to start doing it in 15 minutes if she can take it, right?

But do I adjust her bottles?  She is bottle fed and currently takes 4.5 oz. every 3 hours.  Do I need to add more?  I am confused.

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Yes, it looks like your LO is ready for a bit more A time and a bit more time between E.

Add 15 mins, just as you said, to each A time and her naps ought to improve.  Wait a few days before you try to extend again, sometimes just the 15 mins is enough, sometimes another 15 min is needed. LOs can stay on a routine which is between 3 and 4 hrs for a while rather than making a big jump.

For her feeds always offer enough milk so that there is 1oz left in the bottle, this way you know she has taken as much as she wants.  If bottles are drained you need to increase how much you make.  If she isn't hungry directly after a nap that's okay sometimes they need a bit of A time before E so your routine might not be EASEAS it might be EASAEAS which is fine.

See how you go and let us know if you need more support through the transition.

[maybell245]

Added 15 min. To her first A and naps improved a bit, but now she is early waking sometime between 4 and 5:15 and she is not hungry, she just seems done sleeping.

Will continuing to extend A time and losing 1 nap or the catnap help her to sleep longer in the am?

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Yes, often when they are ready for the first nap to move later and the A time to be longer they start EW.  If you do a couple of days with the extra 15 mins and the EW is still happening you can move that first A time another 15 mins.  You might not be able to totally drop a nap, it might be a shorter nap or shorter CN and then depending what A time and what nap length you get in a few days or week you might be able to drop a CN and keep 3 long naps of 1.5 - 2hr.

Try not to let the A time before BT get too long if you end up with a day the CN drops and there is extra time at the end of the day. A long A time before BT can result in OT and either NWs or EW.

hope this helps

[maybell245]

Yes, what do I do when she EW?

I have been shush-patting and it may get her some sleep (this morning I shush-patted off and on for 90 min. And she slept 40 and woke agaib at 6:15) and it may not, like yesterday she was just up 4 to 7 no matter what I did.

I think she isn't hungry, she either smiles at me in the dark, disses a bit or gets herself unswaddled and eats her hand while talking loidly and waking up my 4 year old.  Now that she is older and hasn't had to cry in hunger because of EASY, could she just not cry when she is hungry and actually be hungry when she EW?

Now I am confused because I am tired from several days of 5 or less hours of sleep.  I probably need to be patient but it's hard when I want more sleep!  I also go back to work (teacher) in about 4 weeks and am worried this won't be sorted out and I will be cranky with my students.  Sorry, venting a bit.

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It's ok you can vent.

Moving the first nap should resolve the EW so really it shouldn't happen for too long.  When it does though, sounds like you're doing all you can, shush/patting, telling her to go to sleep.  Many people pick a time to continue until, perhaps not 7am as that can feel like a very long time, perhaps 6am and start the day, but you still need to push out that first nap.
If she was previously sleeping until 7am then ideally you would be timing that first A time from 7am not from 4am otherwise the nap never moves later. If it turns out terribly long you can split the difference but I wouldn't keep counting A from her EW otherwise it's earlier than her previous routine rather than later, hope that makes sense.

It's certainly possible for LO to be hungry especially through growth spurts but I think she'd let you know about it rather than just babbling and chewing her hand.  You could always try a feed though.

[maybell245]

Well she didn't EW this morning....she fussed at 4, 4:30, 5 and 5:30 and put herself back to sleep each time.  Just a whimper or grunt for a few minutes.  Enough to wake me up on the monitor, haha.

Anyhow, we have pushed out the first A time 15 minutes twice making her first nap at 9:00 (was 8:30) and her 2nd feeding at 10:30 (was at 10).

Yesterday she took an hour nap, I shushed to try to extend and it didn't work.  She was fussy after this nap.  Then an hour 40 min. nap and she seemed happier.  I woke her from this nap.  Then her third nap she slept 30 minutes and nothing I did worked to get her back down.  She was fussy after this too.  Since it was 4:00 when she woke from the 3rd nap, I tried a cat nap at 5:15 and she wouldn't go down.  So my DH and I started her bed process at 6 (earliest we could with dinner and our 4 year old) and it took until almost 8 to get her down.  But then she slept all night as I said with no wakings.

Today her naps were almost identical with the exception of she woke herself during the 2nd nap.  She has been pretty fussy and clingy all day and really doesn't want to play on her tummy or her back or sit with me on the floor.  She just wants to be held.  I will try a catnap again today and an early bedtime if it doesn't work, but now I wonder what to do tomorrow's routine.

Today was the 3rd day of this routine.

Do I move on to 15 more minutes the 2nd awake time or wait?  I can't tell if her shorter 1st and 3rd nap are because she is trying to consolidate or what?

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I would increase the A times to up to 2hrs each in 15 min increments. I think you began at 1hr 30 and have increased the first A time twice now.  I wouldn't go past 2hrs for now as that would be quite long for her age (although not unheard of).
If she naps longer than 1hr 30 I'd leave her tbh, let her have 2hrs if she likes. If she took say a 1hr then 2hr nap waking naturally she will feel better than if she is woken at 1hr 40.  Don't worry about her feeds, just feed when she wakes if it has gone over the E time.

I think you maybe tried the CN too early at 1hr 15 and she just refused it, maybe UT, I'd suggest trying not earlier than 1hr 30 and perhaps a bit later still even though it might make BT a bit late, it's a transition period so if there is a later BT it's quite normal. Then when her naps become longer she wont' need a CN and BT can be more normal again.

hope this helps

[maybell245]

It does, thanks.

This morning her first A time was 2 hours.  She slept 45 minutes and woke and cried and I went in and shush-patted off and on for 40 minutes (which I could because my mom is here with the 4 year old today....I can only do so long when it's just me).  She went back to sleep and is sleeping.

When this happens and she DOES go back to sleep, do I let her sleep for a total of 2 hours if she wants or just up to when the next feed would have been if she had slept 2 straight hours? 

When this happens and she DOESN'T go back to sleep, do I start the A time from when she woke (today at 9:45) or from when she would have had she slept 2 hours?

[creations]

That's great that you were able to get her back to sleep, over the coming days that can get easier - lets hope so.  I think it does indicate that she is more ready for a better nap with the 2hr A time.  If she continues to need lots and lots of help though over say the next week you might up it another 5 mins, not a lot because she is quite young but 5 mins can make a difference to the ability to transition or not, so maybe keep that in mind.

When this happens and she DOES go back to sleep, do I let her sleep for a total of 2 hours if she wants or just up to when the next feed would have been if she had slept 2 straight hours? 

LOs who are not on a routine it is often easier to get onto one by sticking to the times for a while then getting flexible, I would think that as your LO is used to EASY and has been on the 3hr routine then you don't need to stick rigidly to E times or nap lengths - personally I would let her sleep so that she is fully rested and then you know you are working the next A time after a good sleep rather than a disturbed one.  It's really up to you though, some people really do prefer the more rigid approach or need it for whatever reason.

When this happens and she DOESN'T go back to sleep, do I start the A time from when she woke (today at 9:45) or from when she would have had she slept 2 hours?

As above really. Those who need to be "put" onto a routine you'd count from when the nap "should" have ended which can result in very very long A times.  Those who are used to the routine but need a change you can just count the time from when she woke up and start the 2hr A time then.  I'd go for this partly because your LO is used to the routine and partly because her A is increasing anyway so you can avoid OT by not having a very long (2hr+) A time after a short nap.
Very much personal choice and dependent on your situation.

Sorry it's not a clear cut answer but BW/EASY is a flexible routine which is adapted for the individual LO and you and her have needs which are individual to you - we don't have a one size fits all answer for these things really.  Hopefully it's easier to decide what to do based on what I've said though.  And if things don't settle down then we might suggest a different tack to get onto routine, but as you've said yourself your options are restricted by the reality of having another LO to care for and not always having an extra pair of hands.

[maybell245]

Thank you so much.

I agree, it somewhat dependent on not only my LO, but what is going on with my other child.

I personally would like to let her catch up on sleep for naps when needed and adjust the A times after as needed, but my mother-in-law and Nanny (yet to be hired because the one we had just quit this week!) will be with the girls when school starts up in a month (I am a teacher).  I know at least my mother-in-law has a hard time making the more flexible adjustments when I have suggested them and explained them to her.  She really works best when given a schedule with times (I know this because of my older daughter).  She does try, but that can be a lot of problem solving for a Grandma that is also dealing with a 4 year old.  She has spent time watching me and I have explained, but she has watched the girls and I have come home to a very OT baby a few times...just because it's hard.

So anyway, that is part of the reason I am trying to hard to get LO transitioned to 4 hours, but also doing it in such a way that it isn't too rigid if that makes any sense at all?  I want to set up LO and my Nanny/mother-in-law so everything runs as smoothly as possible.

I know good day sleep leads to good night sleep and if the day is a mess, I won't sleep at night and it's hard to teach 6 year olds on little sleep!

So anyway, today she woke at 11 after I got her back to sleep for the first nap.  I fed her and she went back down 1 hour 45 minutes later at 12:45 (I started at 12:30, asleep by 12:45) since that is the 2nd A time and I added 15 minutes today.  She slept 12:45-2:45 and woke on her own.  I fed her, had A time and put her back down at 4:15 and she is sleeping now.

I remember with my first DD people used to say if they wake early from a nap try for 20 minutes and see if you get anywhere, do you agree?  I did 40 today because I could and I almost had her back down at 20 but my 4 year old slammed the toilet seat in the bathroom right next to LO's bedroom and LO startled awake!

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that is part of the reason I am trying to hard to get LO transitioned to 4 hours, but also doing it in such a way that it isn't too rigid if that makes any sense at all?  I want to set up LO and my Nanny/mother-in-law so everything runs as smoothly as possible.

Makes total sense.
I would do what you are doing now and then when you go back to work probably write down set nap times and stick it in plain sight and just accept that LO will be put down at those times regardless.  I'd also leave a pad of paper and pen in easy reach and just ask they jot down the time she woke if there is ever a day that she doesn't take a proper nap and if it is a consistent issue over a number of days you'll be able to just change your written routine with the new times. It's kind of what we do here really, we aren't there with you being flexible for every nap, we just make suggestions based on what we see.  When you go to work her routine is going to keep on changing anyway over the months.

Sounds like a really good day! I know you had to resettle nap 1 but even so, really looks like you are on the right track

I remember with my first DD people used to say if they wake early from a nap try for 20 minutes and see if you get anywhere, do you agree?

again it depends on the circumstances. If you can only do 20 mins for whatever reason that's fine. Often for all sorts of reasons this is all that anyone can do.  The longest we tend to suggest is 40min which is usually close to the end of nap time anyway.
During my LOs 4 month regression I actually stopped trying to resettle and just got him up at 40 mins so we could get out the house - sometimes it is more important to just get out, breath the fresh air, see trees, and I knew the only way was if I got him directly up and dashed out, I even stood by his cot with the sling on from 38 mins knowing he would wake at 40 mins!  Other times I've put in huge amounts of time and effort, the 2-1 was a tricky transition for us, I think it took me an hour just to get him to sleep and then I resettled daily for as long as it took to get him back off to sleep until I realised I could do a W2S instead, I went in every 19 mins to see him through OT wake ups at the 20 min mark and kept on doing that for a full 2hrs nap.
I don't answer your questions so

[maybell245]

The actual day did go pretty well.  You know about the first 2 naps.  She slept 4:15-5:45 and I woke her.  She was very pleasant when I woke her.  She ate, had a little A time, ate again at 6:45 and was in bed by 7:20.  She slept for 30ish minutes and now it's 8:40 and she won't settle down.

DH usually does bedtime so I can do our 4 year old's so she gets some of her own Mommy time.

Should I have let her sleep instead of waking her?  Is she OT? 

I woke her knowing her BT would be later, but I didn't want it to be SO LATE that she wouldn't get enough overnight sleep?!

[maybell245]

So it's 10:40 and after hours of really crying and lots of loud shush-patting, she is asleep.  Around 9:30, she clearly hungry so we fed her and then she proceeded to scream and cry despite our efforts to calm her, so I think she was OT.

Around 10:15, I changed her again, switched swaddles and sat do to my "sit" part of 4 S and she fussed and squirmed because she had the hiccups, the hiccups stopped and she fussed some more, finally took a pacifier (which we only use during wind down, not in bed unless she shows signs of wanting to suck) and sucked for like 2 minutes and then passed out completely in my arms as I walked to the crib.  I think poor LO was exhausted and finally tuckered out .

Not sure exactly where I went wrong there, but man that was exhausting!  Going to bed now in the event this doesn't last long and now we can't dream feed since she at at 9:30 and will likely refuse it.

[creations]

Well, it's hard to judge what's going on when it's just one day, could be a blip and not happen again or it could begin to form a pattern.  With you feeling she ended up OT I wonder if you tried to put her down to bed a bit too early (at 7.20) and she only CN the 30 mins but then resulted in waking which led to OT, or maybe she just didn't like that last nap being capped although I can see you waited until 1hr 30 which is a good nap!

Hmm... think if it was me I'd be tempted to let the nap go longer and expect a later BT for a little while - I expect it isn't what you want but if she went down smoothly it would be less time and less demanding on your and your DH overall.

It could just be that she needs to settle into the new A time as it has changed and she is now starting to nap a bit longer again.

[maybell245]

Yesterday's first 2 naps were 2 hours and then the third nap was 35 minutes and I couldn't extend.  I figured it was her naturally moving to the 2 long and 1 CN in the 4-hour EASY, but we'll see what tonight brings.  She went down like she usually does last night.

Tonight we have a sitter (my BFF) since it's our anniversary, so I hope she goes down ok for her and her DH.  They are just talking about having a baby, I don't want my LO to scare them off, lol.

She is still EW and NW - last night NW was at 3:30 and she really cried.  DH shush-patted and did a little PU/PD (she isn't 4 months yet so we don't rely on that) and she just cried.  It was his night and I was asleep (somehow!) and when she really screamed he assumed she was hungry and fed her.  She went right to sleep after.  Not sure if that was the right decision or not?!  I don't know how old is appropriate to feed in the night.  Someone told me the Tracy's book is a bit outdated and that babies feed in the night longer than the BW book says.  I just don't know how long is ok before it is accidental parenting.

EW this morning as at 5:55, which isn't that bad, but she was awfully tired for the nap at 9.  I shushed and she took the pacifier and slept for maybe 20 minutes between 6 and 7.  She wasn't crying once I shushed and gave pacifier. 

I do think she is adjusting, I just want to make sure I don't do any AP in this transition!

[maybell245]

Naps were all over the place today and she seems OT again tonight.   Came home from our date and she was still awake at 9:00.

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Happy anniversary!

Having a feed in the night is normal at this age.  Do you also do a dream feed?  It's possible she's having a GS so could need her regular DF and also an additional NF for a few days. In any event if she was up and crying hard that long she likely used up a lot of calories so needed some food. A GS could go on several days and a way to know is if she takes a full feed. if you prepare a bottle in the night and she only takes a little every time then it's habitual and for soothing and you would probably feel confident to just drop it and sooth her with shush/pat instead.

Try not to judge too much based on her still being up late when you had your date.  Just one of those nights.

[maybell245]

She does take a full feed when we feed her for NW.  We don't always feed her if she NW, depends on the circumstances of her waking, crying etc.

We give a dream feed at 11 and she has never ever taken a full amount no matter how hard we try.  She always takes 2.5 oz and that's it and she eats 4.5+ during the day.  We have played around with when we give the DF and she always takes 2.5 oz if she takes any.  On the occasions where she feeds at 9 or is in a GS and cluster feed at night, she may take 0 at the DF.

Today her first nap was 1 1/2 hours, but I had to shush-pat in the middle to carry her through.  Her 2nd nap was 2 hours 15 minutes (let her go a little longer) and then the third was 40.  She is down now, woke up after 40 minutes with her arm out of her swaddle went back down easily.

I do think she doesn't need that 4th nap and really doesn't seem to want the 3rd long nap.  However, having a super early bed time or regular bedtime haven't been consistently working yet.  And if she wakes from the 3rd nap at 5:15 (like today) a late bedtime seems like a bad idea too, if she had slept until 6:00 it could have worked.  I shush-patted, but she didn't go back to sleep at all for the 3rd nap.

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It looks overall like she's starting to nap and eat a bit better since your first post so that's good news

I wonder if she just slept a shorter last nap because she'd had two really good naps in the day and maybe she could have done a slightly longer A time before that last nap?

[maybell245]

The A times are 2 hours for the first 2 cycles.  I haven't tried stretching the 3rd yet, keeping her up the 2 hours the 2nd cycle is hard so I am hesitant to move on.

Any advice for dream feed?

She slept last night until 4 this morning and woke hungry.  Was hard to.get back down.  She slept 5:15 to 6 and I shush ed and she slept 6:30 to 7.

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As you have already tried different time for the DF I don't think I have any other advice but you can post on the bottle feeding board if you like.  Probably more ideas there.

It's great you are managing to her get back to sleep for the 7am WU.  It sets good habits for the routine even if that last bit of sleep is disturbed.

[maybell245]

I posted on bottle feeding forum as you suggested, a few people there said they would skip the DF altogether so we did that last night and there was really no difference, so I think I would opt for the sleep in the evening at this point.  I could go to bed at 9 instead of 11:20 and then waking up at 2 or 3 or 4 isn't so bad.

Anyhow, today was a bit odd.  She had a 1.5 hour nap in the am after a 2 hour A time.  Then, we went to visit a potential babysitter, not sure if the scenery change was too stimulating for her or what, but we had to rush home for naptime at 1 and she slept 30 minutes that nap and I shushed and offered her a pacifier and that was all she could sleep.  Then, she was awake for 2 hours again (which is usual, just not at the time that it occured).  I put her down for the catnap at 4 because she just couldn't stay awake and she slept for almost 2 hours there.  She went down ok so far for the night, so I guess flip flopping those 2 naps didn't matter?

Anyhow, not sure if I should post on the sleep forum about this, but when she has a NW that does result in a feeding (like obviously hungry), how long should she be up?  This morning she work at 2:50, she was fed and it took until 4:20 to get back to sleep with shush-pat after the feeding.

Similarly, if she has a NW and isn't hungry, but doesn't settle on her own how long is too long there?

I guess I again just want to make sure we aren't having any AP going on with the feeding or shush-patting.  I worry she can't sleep without shush-pat and that's probably bad, right?

Is she too young for pu/pd? 

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Sounds like things are going well even if the naps were not quite as expected.  Two long naps is great.

Feel free to post on the night waking board if you like. It is a different question to the one you began with here.
I would just get her back to sleep as soon as you can in the night, I wouldn't worry too much about helping her if she needs it as she is still able to self settle at other times.

[maybell245]

Well the last 2 days were 1.5 hour naps am and pm and I got her to extend to 2.  Then, a 40 minute catnap.  Asleep by 7:30 and slept all night with no NW and EW of 6:30 2 of those days, but we get her up at 7, so that was fine!

I don't know if the routine has finally set in or it's not doing the DF or what!?

Either way, I am happy!  I just don't know what I did or she did to make it all work!  Haha.

[creations]

Great news!